Quote from: Franky;1051512Indeed.  And the over-arching philosophy behind that sort of thinking is all neatly encapsulated in Pp.5-6, "Gaming Is For All." of their playtest rulebook.  The 434 page rulebook. :eek:

That was a whole lot of cringe there. It'd be easier to say, "Don't be a dick, and be excellent to each other." I also don't like commandment that GM's have to be able to read the body language and hidden emotions of their players at all times.

Edit: The more I read in the book though, the more I kind of shudder. I think they're heading toward their own sort of 4e situation, there are a lot of changes to the basic formula of D&D in here that seem to make things a little more....Videogamey... the way your "Ancestry" determines your starting HP, the way you get "Boosts" to your attributes depending on your race, class and "Background" instead of the standard rolling. The way the feats are in these overly detailed graphic boxes like tooltips for an ability in World of Warcraft.

I suppose they needed to differentiate themselves from 5e, but where 5e seems to honor it's origins, Pathfinder 2e seems to be going to far sideways.

I feel that Pathfinder is a big pile of bloat that succeeds on the quality if its art.

Quote from: DiscoSoup;1051528I feel that Pathfinder is a big pile of bloat that succeeds on the quality if its art.

It's D&D 3.X with high production values. I will admit that I do like 3rd edition D&D, but when 3.5 came out to "fix all the problems", I was sort of put-off. Then Pathfinder arrived, and it was 3.5 turned up to 11, and I lost interest, even though I got all the books.

Every time I look at Pathfinder I think, wow this is pretty cool!, then I start to make a character and remember why I went back to B/X and AD&D. There is surely a market for such games, but I am not it.

They are so screwed.

Quote from: Brad;1051531Every time I look at Pathfinder I think, wow this is pretty cool!, then I start to make a character and remember why I went back to B/X and AD&D. There is surely a market for such games, but I am not it.

+1 to this. I own a number of Pathfinder books and recently bought Starfinder, and that's my general reaction. I want to like PF but every time I try to play I am confronted by the 3E fiasco all over again. 3E and 4E were, to me, very dark times in the "evolution" of the game, but the good news is that 3E made me find C&C.

I have a friend who is a big fan of Pathfinder, and he was looking forward to the playtest of 2nd ed, so I figured I'd at least grab the PDF.  And then I went to the game store that is like a block away from where I see my shrink (depression issues).  They had a bunch of the paperback copies and hardcovers, but none of the pseudo-leather bound copies (the store got just enough to cover the pre-orders for that format +1 store copy). I'd sold a bunch of games that I had doubles of (they sell the books on consignment, customer sets the price on the item, when it sells they get 80% of the price in store credit, the store gets the other 20% for acting as seller and providing shelf space), so I had a bunch of store credit, and the owner and I were talking about the rabid fan base of Pathfinder who would go and buy one of each copy of a playtest file, when in walked one of the more frothing regulars, who was there to pick up his limited edition pseudo-leather bound copy of Pathfinder 2.  And as the owner went into the back to get his special order He bragged to me about how he had talked the owner down from $60 to 30 on it, and had pre-paid for said book.
The owner came out, and handed him the paperback edition and told him that $30 would only get him the paperback and if he didn't like it, too bad.
The customer then started throwing a tantrum about how he HAD to have the pseudo-leather copy, and couldn't he just return the paper, to add to what he had in store credit?
The owner told him he doesn't take returns on special orders, and the playtest book, in this case, qualified as a special order. If he wanted to he could try to sell the book used , but good luck with that, and he had annoyed all the other regulars so much that none of them would deal with him where money was involved.
So I stepped in and asked how short he was credit wise, and was told $5. I turned to the customer and said, "you give me the paperback and I'll give you the $5 you need in credit"
He told me he wanted the $30 it was worth, and shrugged and started to walk away, then he shouted for me to wait, and the owner sold him the browsing copy, and I got a paperback copy of the book for basically free.
After the regular stomped off, calling us lots of nasty things for ripping him off, the owner said that he has never had so much difficulty in not laughing at that guy.

I haven't really sat down and combed through the book, and I played Pathfinder 1 only a couple times, but the layout is nice, not sure about rules changes, the little diamond things representing how many actions something takes seems nice.  Not a lot of art, which is good, for what it needs to be.  May never play it, but the price was good.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1051780They are so screwed.

Marketing to the hardcore gearhead char-opping mech-pilot social justice warrior 3e D&D fan... What could possibly go wrong?

As I indicated, their big problem is that they are designing this game for a subset of their existing fan base, the people who've been with them since the opening years of the 21st century. Paizo did one great thing aimed at new players, the Pathfinder Beginner Box, but never supported it, and WotC has been eating their lunch for four years now. And instead of admitting defeat and going to a 5e compatible product line that would create an evergreen market (albeit with a smaller base) they are doubling down on failure.

I don't know if it is past success or socjus or both that makes them stupid, or if their initial genius in converting 3e Dungeon & its subscriber base over to the monthly Pathfinder Adventure Path was just a fluke. But they really need to go back to what made them successful in the first place if they are going to survive.

Quote from: Franky;1051512Indeed.  And the over-arching philosophy behind that sort of thinking is all neatly encapsulated in Pp.5-6, "Gaming Is For All." of their playtest rulebook.  The 434 page rulebook. :eek:

Quote from: Rhedyn;1051509Maybe they shouldn't have over moderated their forum until it became a yes-man echo chamber and maybe then Paizo would be more cautious and humble. Overall Paizo seems to be hostile towards any customers that don't already like them. Heck their "official" stance (it's only what mods and other employees say to people) is that if you have a problem with the term being changed from Race to Ancestries, then you are racist and they don't want your money anyways (I really don't care what they call it, it's just a stupid thing to attack people for).

I never received any impression that as a company they were humble imo. The almost non-apology for the Advanced Class Guide which they slapped together and threw out at Gencon thinking no one would notice that it requires 9 or was it 10 pages of errata for the material to be used properly. When the fans ripped them a new one they seemed defiant and only after the uproar lasted a week did they give a very grudgingly half-assed backhanded apology. After all we should have been happy to receive a book that requires so much errata to use just so Paizo could have had a Gencon release. To one of their own developers going on record stating that anyone who has issues with the Fighter class is someone with a agenda. As for them calling people racist for not liking ancestries it's them pandering to SJW elements who really don't buy gaming. I think the company needs to be humbled and the only way they will learn.

Quote from: Franky;1051512Indeed.  And the over-arching philosophy behind that sort of thinking is all neatly encapsulated in Pp.5-6, "Gaming Is For All." of their playtest rulebook.  The 434 page rulebook. :eek:

The sad part all they had to do with what they wrote was go " be fair, don't be a dick and allow anyone and everyone who is interested in playing and make sure everyone is having fun. Instead of treating their fanbase with respect it felt like they were talking down to me and pointing a wagging finger in my direction with the unwritten "you will follow these directions to the letter or your a bad DM and person in all respects".

Quote from: Orphan81;1051519That was a whole lot of cringe there. It'd be easier to say, "Don't be a dick, and be excellent to each other." I also don't like commandment that GM's have to be able to read the body language and hidden emotions of their players at all times.

See above it felt like my mom was talking to me when a 10 year old. I play this is a hobby when it becomes a job is when I leave it or take a break from the gaming table both as a player and DM. I'm not paid to be a part-time or full time psychologist. If a person has a issue I will deal with them one on one. Then I see if the entire table has a issue. If player dfg does not like DRow with black skin and the other five players are good with it DFG is shit of luck and finding a new table. What gets me about that section is the implication if you don't have female, trans-gendered or a non-white, gay player your not trying hard enough. If my area is made up of mostly cis white males and none of the others are interested in playing rpgs. Guess what my group will be made up of that demographic. I cannot force any of the other demographics to join my table.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1051780They are so screwed.

I say wait and see Pundit because if I listened to every gamer who said a new version is shit I would never have tried something new. Gamers said 5E was crap and it's a very successful brand.

Remial it's not just Pathfinder fans. I have always noticed that some a very small subset of tabletop gamers are " special" . A gamer walks in complete stereotype bad body odor, unkempt beard and overall appearance. Tried to sell marked up used 2E material and was getting more and more angry that the store owner was refusing to budge on what he was going to give him. Then the conversation turned to the pricing of 3E the gamers goes on a rant about it. The store owner shut him down by pointing out that it's not the late 1980s anymore and what was priced a certain way at that time is not the same now. Which was early 2000s. The guy blew a gasket because someone ripped apart his carefully constructed personal narrative on how WOTC was a bad company for selling books at proper prices and not 198os prices. Long story short he was no able to sell his books, banned from the story and made to look like a idiot.

Given the (free) work that went into trashing 4E and the (paid) work that went into selling 5E, it's in Paizo's best interest to spend more marketing capital to silence the nay-sayers.

Edit: Rules-wise, both are workable provided you ignore 30-40% of the rules, which is par for course.

I don't play Pathfinder, but I strongly suspect Paizo is going to do just fine with it.

Quote from: Mistwell;1051842I don't play Pathfinder, but I strongly suspect Paizo is going to do just fine with it.

Well, yes.  Their main moneymaker is their storefront.  They don't need Pathfinder.

I'm never buying an rpg that has more than a 200 page main rule book again.

Quote from: S'mon;1051792Marketing to the hardcore gearhead char-opping mech-pilot social justice warrior 3e D&D fan... What could possibly go wrong?

Idk why going hard SJW leads to uninteresting products, but it seems to be a running theme when a company goes too deep down the rabbit hole.

Ironically, I think it stems from a lack of diversity, if you only hire and listen to people that think the same (ever narrowing) way as you do, it's no surprise that you end up regurgitating samey ideas that are uninteresting.

Maybe it has something to do with being overly sensitive to banal difference in regular people that are just uninteresting in fantasy settings. Like your gay trans black dwarf Shaman is not more interesting than a Dragonborn Eldritch Knight or even an Orc Paladin.

Like, I would be playing 5e if they tightened up their language (especially spells), fixed some balance issues that were addressed with bad DM handwaving (summoning, polymorph, ect), had some DM charts with listed examples how skills should work (outside of vague handwave charts vs "difficulty" that isn't defined in game terms), and maybe introduced a variant rule where you add Level/CR to rolls for campaigns that need you to out level things. Idc that Mike Mearls is an SJW, his product is interesting, I just don't like how it plays out in our 7 man groups. (Add another variant rule for multiple concentration spells, maybe bonus concentration or attunement slots and you basically have everything PF2e could ever hope to be).

EDIT: Hell, I would be super down for a 6e that was basically completely compatible with current 5e products

Quote from: Franky;1051512Indeed.  And the over-arching philosophy behind that sort of thinking is all neatly encapsulated in Pp.5-6, "Gaming Is For All." of their playtest rulebook.

OK, I have absolutely no interest in PF (which reminds me, I need to sell those copies of Classic Horrors Revisited and Undead Revisited I have), but this provokes morbid curiosity.