Yep. Stumbled across a link to an old Grognardia post tonight, and realized how much I miss that blog as part of my regular online reading experience. These days all the blogs I read are Oldhammer as the golden age of OSR blogging is long since past. But Grognardia in particular I always enjoyed, probably because it was written by someone discovering old school more than it was the nostalgic reminiscences of an old schooler. Grognardia was like an archeologist's journal of old school gaming, and it was a very fun read for that reason.
I don't care about Dwimmermount. I dont care if James Mal was cowardly, or lazy, or whatever else. I just wish he'd go back to blogging. Not that that will happen, or anyone will be able to recapture the "lightning in the bottle" of that period of the OSR, when it was really establishing an online identity for itself. But I miss it. This is my lament for the nostalgia over the nostalgia pieces.
We're gonna get ridiculed to death for this, but yeah, me too.
Whatever failings James Malizewski may possess, Grognardia was my gateway into the OSR, and along with other blogs and forums, helped me make sense of many TSR D&D elements that weirded me out back in the day.
Also got me to read a good chunk of Appendix N, plus Clark Ashton Smith. Good stuff.
Quote from: The Butcher;806264Whatever failings James Malizewski may possess, Grognardia was my gateway into the OSR, and along with other blogs and forums, helped me make sense of many TSR D&D elements that weirded me out back in the day.
This was my experience too.
I can accept the man was seriously flawed without throwing out his work, just like I can enjoy an old movie starring Mel Gibson or a book by Scott Card without condoning their bigotry.
His blog was a fun and enjoyable read. I miss it too.
Quote from: The Butcher;806264Whatever failings James Malizewski may possess, Grognardia was my gateway into the OSR, and along with other blogs and forums, helped me make sense of many TSR D&D elements that weirded me out back in the day.
A lot of his blog entries were about games and such that I already owned so I won't say it was my gateway to anything, but I looked forward to reading his thoughts and insights every day or so. I miss Grognardia a lot. :(
I think a lot of the OSR movement mirrored the California gold rush, where a few prospectors struck it rich and this caused many folks to throw in their life savings in order to try to get rich, too. The OSR movement has a few gold nuggets but a lot of rough rocks and I think that James got carried away in something that spiraled out of control and he couldn't get out from under it. It makes me sad that this caused him to withdraw from all things gaming, because he had made some great contributions such as Grognardia.
I liked his posts on Star Trek and Star Wars. Very interesting reading on world building.
I like the older posts where he wasn't just reviewing old magazine covers.
Discovered Bertram Chandler, E.C. Tubbs, and H. Beam Piper via Grognardia. It has colored my take on Traveller ever since.
I only visited Grognardia once or twice ... and it was a key contributor to my antipathy to the OSR. :)
Malizewski and I may agree a lot on major issues, but on the minor issue of 'what kind of feel do you want out of fantasy roleplaying?', we appear to be very far apart.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;806279I only visited Grognardia once or twice ... and it was a key contributor to my antipathy to the OSR. :)
Malizewski and I may agree a lot on major issues, but on the minor issue of 'what kind of feel do you want out of fantasy roleplaying?', we appear to be very far apart.
Based on his descriptions of his games I also have no interest in his preferred style, but what does that have to do with the "OSR"? And antipathy thereto?
I miss that blog too. I didn't always agree with him but he just about always had something interesting to say... and pointed me towards some great stuff and other good blogs, which are still my mainstay for RPG reading... kind of like a digital Alarum's & Excursions.
I don't care much about the Dwimmermount drama either. It was at times obsessive about minutiae, but Grognardia has been a worthwhile blog to read, and still makes for a great archive for many things OSR.
Just yesterday I have been perusing again James Mal's living dungeon random tables for a living dungeon (along with Jeff Rients' random table about the same thing) to spice up my upcoming megadungeon.
I never cared about Dwimmermount as I have no interest in "Megadungeons." His handling of the debacle was pretty bad and may have permanently damaged his credibility as a creator. But that has no bearing on the stuff I enjoyed on his blog.
So, are there any good blogs out there that concern old school RPgs and their history?
Me too, especially when he wrote about Traveller.
Me too. Plus he got me using lacunae in my vocabulary.
He had some good content, but his style of turning a phrase was pure Poindexter. Bet he's got a nasal voice and a nervous habit of clicking the button on his pen when he speaks.
Quote from: The_Shadow;806344He had some good content, but his style of turning a phrase was pure Poindexter. Bet he's got a nasal voice and a nervous habit of clicking the button on his pen when he speaks.
That's how John Wick strikes me.
I see Mr. M more as the old guy who holds court at the coffeehouse... a loveable blowhard who sometimes actually knows what he's talking about and is still connected enough to be relevant.
Quote from: The_Shadow;806344He had some good content, but his style of turning a phrase was pure Poindexter. Bet he's got a nasal voice and a nervous habit of clicking the button on his pen when he speaks.
Well, I did find the constant use of "mind you" and "the hobby" a bit annoying, but mainly it felt like he was trying to be academic rather than conversational in his posts and sometimes it came off to me as pedantic.
James is not some stereotype--he's just a shy dad.
I'm not an OSR person at all. But I did subscribe to his blog because we both played the same old games.
One of my parents recently fell gravely ill, and I can only imagine how much more stressful this already nerve-wracking and life-disrupting situation would be if I had a BIG PROJECT due and hordes of internet gerbilheads and glue-eaters calling me a "Thief", "Lazy", "Con-artist", etc. -so I've developed a lot of sympathy for him lately.
And he was a good writer- I used his Edgar Rice Burroughs stat-ups for my Labyrinth Lord game, and his book reviews introduced me to some great stuff.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;806395One of my parents recently fell gravely ill, and I can only imagine how much more stressful this already nerve-wracking and life-disrupting situation would be if I had a BIG PROJECT due and hordes of internet gerbilheads and glue-eaters calling me a "Thief", "Lazy", "Con-artist", etc. -so I've developed a lot of sympathy for him lately.
Same here. When I had a death in the family, he sent me a pivate message with words of support. And that was AFTER Grognardia went dark.
He's a way better human being than some of his detractors.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;806395One of my parents recently fell gravely ill, and I can only imagine how much more stressful this already nerve-wracking and life-disrupting situation would be if I had a BIG PROJECT due and hordes of internet gerbilheads and glue-eaters calling me a "Thief", "Lazy", "Con-artist", etc. -so I've developed a lot of sympathy for him lately.
My mother got sick and died while I was trying to get the crowd-funded Legends & Labyrinths (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/30465/roleplaying-games/legends-labyrinths-black-book-beta) produced despite my original artists flaking and (later) my printing company going out of business. It's... not fun.
For those missing Maliszewski's game-related blog output, you should know that he's an active contribute for the games column at Black Gate magazine (http://www.blackgate.com/category/games-reviews/).
It is, unfortunately, more reminiscent of the Grognardia during its latter days (when it became increasingly about navel gazing at oddities of the '70s and early '80s) instead of Grognardia in its prime (when it was about exploring the paths abandoned at the dawn of the industry).
I really enjoyed reading through the older stuff on his blog, less so the later period when it seemed to be mostly reviews. I don't really give a shit about the whole Dwimmermount thing, I would read his work again if it were like the earlier Grognardia stuff.
I really enjoyed Grognardia and I *loath* OSR games. I do miss it.
Those columns on Black Gate seem to be mostly rewrites of stuff he posted on Grognardia. How 'bout that.
Quote from: Tetsubo;806442I really enjoyed Grognardia and I *loath* OSR games. I do miss it.
Well, if you're like me and enjoying the blog had zero to do with actually wanting 99% of the products being discussed, then I highly recommend checking out "Realm of Chaos 80s" blog. Its Grognardia for Warhammer.
So based on the responses, it was only me who read the title and thought
Miss Grognardia
was the winner of an OSR beauty contest.
Quote from: Bren;806697So based on the responses, it was only me who read the title and thought
Miss Grognardia
was the winner of an OSR beauty contest.
I'd hate to see the losers.
I'm surprised by how little I miss Grognardia.
I used to check it out regularly 2009-2011, but the quality of the posts declined, and my interest waned.
Even so, I was always impressed at JM's ability to pump out long posts almost daily.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;806402It is, unfortunately, more reminiscent of the Grognardia during its latter days (when it became increasingly about navel gazing at oddities of the '70s and early '80s) instead of Grognardia in its prime (when it was about exploring the paths abandoned at the dawn of the industry).
I think there was only so much material to mine on that topic.
It's helping me to understand the play that goes with the Greyhawk setting. I'm very appreciative of that content, at the least. Didn't know about any of the recent events.
I do miss his blog.
i might have a look at it i read it a little while researching the palace of the silver princess (wizards really half arsed there archives) but still i did not really look around
ah so thats what dwimmermount was i could never understand how some people can grieve for that long by that point you probably have depression not just grief
still i cant have much sympathy for the backers i find the whole concept of kickstarter completely flawed
still onto the blog it is pretty interesting i cant say i like the new post and older post labels i have always preferred back and forward or previous and next or even some combination of the 2. the content is interesting to which is of course the most important thing and the guy seems to be likeable
well thats impressive the man got me to admire paizo for something
his statement that eh wants d&d to be an amateur activity is a bit concerning though my first thought was that it seems dangerously close to swine talk but thinking about it i dont think thats right but it is definitely at least a little hipstery
Quote from: tuypo1;806863his statement that eh wants d&d to be an amateur activity is a bit concerning though...
I'm certainly preferring the 'amateur' offerings these days... compared to the 'professional' ones.
I can empathize with the desire for the hobby to remain "amateur", meaning that every hobby is corrupted by the introduction of business.
One need look no further than the history of Warhammer to see the difference between a hobby led by amateurs to a hobby led by corporate interest.
3rd edition D&D's great legacy was the OGL. This was an almost subversive act. It ensured that the future of D&D would always be in the hands of the "amateurs", the hobbyists. If at any point Hasbro decides D&D is not profitable, and decides to cancel it, it will still remain due to the OGL. When the corporate face of the hobby makes a mis-step that threatens to drive people away from the hobby (4th edition), the OGL provides the means to counter-balance (the OSR). And having amateur competition means the corporate side of D&D is faced with the necessity to adapt itself to what the hobby wants (5th edition).
Warhammer Fantasy is dying, has been for a long time. There's been rumours of cancellation for a while now: its not profitable anymore. 40k is far more popular among the teens, and the older players who arent considered a viable target audience by the corporation, have abandoned the latest editions. Sure, End Times has provided it a brief new gasp of life, but that's from the collector's and its not sustainable. Yet the Oldhammer community is thriving. The parallels are uncanny. But without an equivalent OGL, the corporate GW doesn't have the competition to really understand and be forced to adapt to what the hobbyists want vs the effective selling strategy. Oldhammer alone only sustains older editions, it doesn't create new growth in the hobby, just as the OSR would not have been successful if it only involved the scouring of ebay and used bookstores for old copies of the Gygax-era D&D.
So while I personally cannot stand 3rd edition as a game, the legacy it left is the single most important event in the history of RPGs since the publication of B/X.
The amateurs are the life and soul of any hobby. The "industry" can exist in symbiosis with that, but left unchecked it becomes parasitical in nature.
i can agree with you there and if that is what he meant then i do agree with him but it initialy came across to me as hipsterism, especially considering he was talking about the art he admitted 3es art was the best but said he liked the old art because it was not as good
although to be fair while i can admire the results i cant respect the osr for taking advantage of the stupidity of it being impossible to claim legal right to rules.
i did not know fantasy was dying but now that i think about it it does make sense you see a lot more 40k on /tg/ then fantasy (although to be fair the board was founded by 40k) and /tg/ is even convinced that 40k is screwed as well unless games workshop makes some massive changes hopefully when fantasy finally dies of to little to late they will realise they need to work harder to save 40k
Quote from: tuypo1;806886i can agree with you there and if that is what he meant then i do agree with him but it initialy came across to me as hipsterism, especially considering he was talking about the art he admitted 3es art was the best but said he liked the old art because it was not as good
I feel the same about the art. The art in newer editions is technically better... but in many ways it fails to inspire me the way some of the clunkier art in earlier versions did... it has less 'soul'. It's done in a way that expunges a lot of the vagaries that cruder images leave open to the viewer's imagination.
The same goes for Games Workshop's miniatures. Their modern, computer generated minis are really nice... 'better' in many ways than the earlier stuff. But the early stuff had character that the newer stuff cannot match.
In the end it's art and largely a matter of taste. Thomas Kinkade and Larry Elmore have made very competent images I have no interest in looking at.
Thanks to you guys I've started marathoning every post of this blog, it's great.
I agree about older art sometimes being better; the same dynamic is at work with Magic the Gathering. The older cards were painted by hand and had a different feeling to them, one that I liked more, than the polished cartoony CG ones that are used today.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;806903I agree about older art sometimes being better; the same dynamic is at work with Magic the Gathering. The older cards were painted by hand and had a different feeling to them, one that I liked more, than the polished cartoony CG ones that are used today.
Yeah, I miss when Magic cards were ALLOWED to look like this:
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte_art?ref=leg183
or this:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jamesarnold-050814-art-heroes-amy-weber/
Now there's a standard "look" that gets enforced, and while the new pieces often take my breath away, I still wish I could see more wildly personal mould-breaking stuff again.
Of course I suppose the new standards have also spared us stuff like this, so that's good too:
http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/12282012snyderpic12.jpg
Quote from: Simlasa;806888The same goes for Games Workshop's miniatures. Their modern, computer generated minis are really nice... 'better' in many ways than the earlier stuff. But the early stuff had character that the newer stuff cannot match.
Just one random example in defense of GW and newer sculpts:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Nagash-Mini.jpg
versus
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Nagash2.jpg
I really have a hard time defending the character of the original no matter how nostalgic I get.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;806908Just one random example in defense of GW and newer sculpts:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Nagash-Mini.jpg
versus
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Nagash2.jpg
I really have a hard time defending the character of the original no matter how nostalgic I get.
Well, god damn. And they both probably cost(ed) your soul any way.
Quote from: TristramEvans;806917Ha! Yeah old Nagash had a reputation as being one of the worste minis GW ever released. I think he looked like one of those Mexican Dia de Muertos figures.
Yes, come to think of it, he looks like Grimdark Fandango.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;806908Just one random example in defense of GW and newer sculpts:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Nagash-Mini.jpg
versus
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Nagash2.jpg
I really have a hard time defending the character of the original no matter how nostalgic I get.
Ha! Yeah old Nagash had a reputation as being one of the worste minis GW ever released. I think he looked like one of those Mexican Dia de Muertos figures.
To be fair though, Oldhammer really focuses on pre-4th edition figures of 81 to 92, so that fellow wouldn't qualify.
Quote from: TristramEvans;806917Ha! Yeah old Nagash had a reputation as being one of the worste minis GW ever released. I think he looked like one of those Mexican Dia de Muertos figures.
For some strange reason the Día de Muertos look endears it to me.
Quote from: TristramEvans;806917To be fair though, Oldhammer really focuses on pre-4th edition figures of 81 to 92, so that fellow wouldn't qualify.
Yeah, old Nagash is from an era where GW's sculpts/painting took an overall nose-dive... big chunky features and goofy poses... and lots of bright red paint.
There are plenty of their newer models I do like... but that new candyfloss Nagash is the size of a Barbie doll and still just too damn ridiculous.
Quote from: Simlasa;806883I'm certainly preferring the 'amateur' offerings these days... compared to the 'professional' ones.
As the great Smokey Robinson sang: I second that emotion.
I prefer amateur as well. It's not about being hipsterish, it's about the creativity and openness.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;806945I prefer amateur as well. It's not about being hipsterish, it's about the creativity and openness.
I like when someone pursues his vision without having it sent to committee. Even if I think his vision needs corrective lenses.
I don't miss Grognardia. Some of his stuff was interesting, but there was too much Talmudic discourse. Too much trying to discern meaning through a word here or there, that Appendix N stuff, and "well he didn't list book X, but we know he read it, and here we can see the influence -" and "when he said X, he really meant Y, except in this other case where he meant Z." It got tedious.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;806983Too much trying to discern meaning through a word here or there, that Appendix N stuff, and "well he didn't list book X, but we know he read it, and here we can see the influence -" and "when he said X, he really meant Y, except in this other case where he meant Z." It got tedious.
That sorta shit is everywhere though... even right here in River City. The gold in the ashes there was stuff he'd mention along the way that I'd never heard of.
Quote from: Natty Bodak;806918For some strange reason the Día de Muertos look endears it to me.
I see what you did there...
Quote from: Simlasa;806888Larry Elmore have made very competent images I have no interest in looking at.
Your dead to me;):p
Quote from: Ronin;806994Your dead to me;):p
Sorry, I have no dead to give you.
Mentzer Red Box was my first D&D. Elmore is D&D to me and I love it. But obviously your mileage may very:)
As to the actual topic. Grog had some interesting stuff on occasion. But do I miss it? No.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;806983I don't miss Grognardia. Some of his stuff was interesting, but there was too much Talmudic discourse. Too much trying to discern meaning through a word here or there, that Appendix N stuff, and "well he didn't list book X, but we know he read it, and here we can see the influence -" and "when he said X, he really meant Y, except in this other case where he meant Z." It got tedious.
Personally I could not give a squirt of piss what books Gary Gygax read and thought were good. I tried reading a Fafhrd book once. Maybe it was the worst one but it was incredibly dull.
I read a few posts here and there, but not enough to miss anything. Lot of other people on the forums offered a lot more insight when it came to stuff that actually mattered to my games. Blogs are way overrated, in my opinion.
I miss the early blog, but by the end it was clearly out of gas. What I actually like was how it changed me. It was a blog that actually made me pause and think. I didn't agree with all of James' ideas, and found his reading of D&D a bit on the narrow side, but there was merit to that approach. Mostly, what I liked, was that he approached GG's writing as serious, and something to be respected. He looked at the old game and said "what were they thinking", and extrapolated. It lead to not only good blog material, but also gave one a certain viewpoint.
Picking up old RPGs, I've noted since reading Grognardia that I tend to read a lot more into what the author of the book was intending with rules. I've tended to think more about why certain rules were written a certain way. I'll still throw away rules I don't like, change the game to match my style, but I respect the actual works more now than I did.
But the fall of Grognardia was a sad, sad affair. I think if his blog had still been churning out good posts as the Dwimmermount problem grew it might have gone differently. I still hit the blog once in a while, going back to post one, and read for an afternoon, and enjoy myself.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;806983I don't miss Grognardia. Some of his stuff was interesting, but there was too much Talmudic discourse. Too much trying to discern meaning through a word here or there, that Appendix N stuff, and "well he didn't list book X, but we know he read it, and here we can see the influence -" and "when he said X, he really meant Y, except in this other case where he meant Z." It got tedious.
I love that kind of stuff though. It gives you insight into the context surrounding the entire thing that just a naked reading of the rules won't.
can somebody give me insight into the context surrounding the retardation of the book of exalted deeds
you know the reasons behind the rules was one 2 of the 2 reason to buy the rules compendium (the other being something that actually adequately explained holding touch spells)
Obviously, I don't miss Grognardia. It exemplified some of the worst of the OSR's Clonemania days and Invented-Nostalgia.
I figured you would be a big fan of it since he talks about old D&D a lot, where it was just gaming, instead of storytelling.
Pundit kinda hates on random people because he doesn't like their attitude or just likes different games than them rather than for any exact bad thing they did.
Ask him what Vincent Baker ever did to him some time.
pundit what did Vincent Baker ever do to you.
pundit what did Vincent Baker ever do to you.
Vincent Baker's too obvious. He was one of the most active voices on the Forge, practically Ron Edward's protege.
I'd just like to suss the distinction between nostalgia and "invented nostalgia".
well thats easy its about the intent
actually you are right it is a bit odd.
Quote from: TristramEvans;807551Vincent Baker's too obvious. He was one of the most active voices on the Forge, practically Ron Edward's protege.
I'd just like to suss the distinction between nostalgia and "invented nostalgia".
Having been there (started gaming in 1978) I have some wonderful memories of old school D&D. And all of them had to do with the games we played and the people I played them with. The rules were crap. I can see that clearly *now*, even thought at the time I couldn't. So my nostalgia is set firmly in that context. Playing those games at fourteen was awesome. But now, at fifty? No thanks.
I've seen James Mal play games. He plays to have fun like everybody else.
You could try to claim James was some kind of nostalgic-in-a-bad-way ass based on how much time he spent talking about old stuff that didn't resonate with (whoever was reading) but you'd have to balance that against his reviews of new DIY D&D products which showed a pretty consistent appreciation for people doing innovative things--even if they were innovations you might think he, personally, couldn't have thought of himself.
Red Tide, Echo Resounding, Carcosa, the original Death Frost Doom--he saw what was good and new in them straight off. I for one wouldn't have heard of any of those things if it wasn't for JM and I bet a ton of other people wouldn't either.
It's the Internet. Anytime anyone says "I like" or "I miss," there's always someone who feels compelled to lash out against it. It's especially easy when hiding behind fake names and avatars.
Of course that's been said about a billion times before.
Still true.
Quote from: TristramEvans;807551Vincent Baker's too obvious. He was one of the most active voices on the Forge, practically Ron Edward's protege.
I'd just like to suss the distinction between nostalgia and "invented nostalgia".
it's invented nostalgia when you feel thretened by someone else's popularity. Its regular nostalgia when people are playing BX and not buying your game. Hope that helps.
I don't really miss Grognardia, but I have no doubt that Jmal was 100% sincere.
Quote from: Zak S;807565I've seen James Mal play games. He plays to have fun like everybody else.
You could try to claim James was some kind of nostalgic-in-a-bad-way ass based on how much time he spent talking about old stuff that didn't resonate with (whoever was reading) but you'd have to balance that against his reviews of new DIY D&D products which showed a pretty consistent appreciation for people doing innovative things--even if they were innovations you might think he, personally, couldn't have thought of himself.
Red Tide, Echo Resounding, Carcosa, the original Death Frost Doom--he saw what was good and new in them straight off. I for one wouldn't have heard of any of those things if it wasn't for JM and I bet a ton of other people wouldn't either.
Honestly, I enjoyed his musing and early talk about Dwimmermount, myself. I especially liked the that the door to the dungeon only opened in the moonlight; elfs as martians and some of his other stuff.
However, that's twice in this thread that I almost agree with you. Lets not make it a habit, now.
Quote from: Tetsubo;807562Having been there (started gaming in 1978) I have some wonderful memories of old school D&D. And all of them had to do with the games we played and the people I played them with. The rules were crap. I can see that clearly *now*, even thought at the time I couldn't. So my nostalgia is set firmly in that context. Playing those games at fourteen was awesome. But now, at fifty? No thanks.
From what he says, it seems like what he liked about it was how open ended it was, since it forced everybody to be creative when interpreting them. The rules themselves were almost beside the point.
I liked Grognardia. J Mal, had an urge to share something, and I usually found it interesting and thoughtful. Sometimes he dived deep into the weeds on some things, but it never really bothered me.
Quote from: Zak S;807565the original Death Frost Doom--he saw what was good and new in them straight off. I for one wouldn't have heard of any of those things if it wasn't for JM and I bet a ton of other people wouldn't either.
I'm on that list. First heard about it from his blog. I also think Mearls has said as much. DFD has been a ton of fun. I've run it, I've seen my kid run it, and I was in a game of it he ran, snickering to my self all the way while keeping mum.
Quote from: tuypo1;807545pundit what did Vincent Baker ever do to you.
Zak's the one who has personal vendettas. Mine, with a few exceptions, are ideological. I don't see that as a bad thing, I see it as a less petty thing than hating on only the people who have personally attacked you.
So the question is what Vince Baker done to hte hobby? And the answer is that he's been part of a movement of pretentious pseudo-intellectuals trying to subvert and redefine it as something it isn't.
fair enough i can agree with you on that matter
Quote from: RPGPundit;808094Zak's the one who has personal vendettas. Mine, with a few exceptions, are ideological. I don't see that as a bad thing, I see it as a less petty thing than hating on only the people who have personally attacked you.
So the question is what Vince Baker done to hte hobby? And the answer is that he's been part of a movement of pretentious pseudo-intellectuals trying to subvert and redefine it as something it isn't.
I think it probably makes much more sense to hate people who have personally slighted and attacked you, rather than people who have a slightly different idea about the correct way to design role playing games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;808094Zak's the one who has personal vendettas. Mine, with a few exceptions, are ideological. I don't see that as a bad thing, I see it as a less petty thing than hating on only the people who have personally attacked you.
So the question is what Vince Baker done to hte hobby? And the answer is that he's been part of a movement of pretentious pseudo-intellectuals trying to subvert and redefine it as something it isn't.
I think people should disagree and behave well.That's how you turn off your computer at the end of the day knowing more than when you turned it on in the morning.
Whatever Vincent (and James Mal) did, I think they were earnest about it.
Even if you
hate them and all they stand for--you can always learn from an earnest person. You can put what you think next to what they think and talk to them and get something out of it Why this? Why that?. Dishonest people are just noise.
If there was a version of somebody I hate--like Karl Rove--sitting right here in my house who answered questions about what motivated them as earnestly as JamesMal and Vincent Baker did, I'd appreciate the fact that it was an opportunity to learn what made such an asshole tick. I don't have to guess and be one more dumb asshole guessing.
Somebody who just evades and fucks around--they're no use to anyone.
Baker likes games I hate and challenges the people who show up in his discussions a lot less (or at least a lot less directly) than I do. We talk about this. I know now what he thinks, how this happened, how much effort he's willing to put into it. Why he made those decisions, What he thinks it cost him. Why he made these choices constantly, what he 's into. What we do and don't agree about. (He is a pretty intense free speech advocate, despite the company he keeps.)
JM is (or was) a pretty strict Catholic and I'm a porn actor. But if I go "Ok, James so why…?" he gives an answer. And now I know some things I never really thought about before about being that kind of person, running those kinds of games, blah blah blah
(Obviously after Dwimmermount, he shrunk away--but that's a whole other issue. And, yeah--I do hope whoever was owed money on that got paid.)
He doesn't leave everyone on the internet in the position where they have to guess what's going on in the person they hate's head. And that reticence and fear of exposure and dishonesty is what leads to all the strawman arglebargle talking-past bullshit you get every day--people refusing to say what they think and instead putting up some front.
You'll never have universal agreement--but you can have disagreement that's productive. And JM did and VB does, and if you don't respect that--then maybe you just use the internet for a different reason than I do. I personally think the stuff I make and write and play is stronger because I have a sharper Idea of what it's
not because I've talked to very eloquent advocates of doing things other ways.
I have a lot of patience for people who will talk back. That's pretty much all we do here: talk.
What exactly happened with Dwimmermount?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;808227What exactly happened with Dwimmermount?
It was a Kickstarter the Grognardia author ran for megadungeon he'd been discussing on the blog and elsewhere for a while. There was a lot of positive buzz about it. The kickstarter was successful, but then he was late. Then he was late some more. Then he was very late. Then he had a personal tragedy in his life and stopped communicating online with his backers about how late he was. About that point the shit hit the fan on various forums. People bitched and bitched and bitched about how late it was and how uncommunicative he was being.
Then, finally, a group of people he was working with on the project took it over from him completely and finally finished it.
Quote from: Zak S;808225I think people should disagree and behave well.
That's how you turn off your computer at the end of the day knowing more than when you turned it on in the morning.
Whatever Vincent (and James Mal) did, I think they were earnest about it.
Even if you hate them and all they stand for--you can always learn from an earnest person. You can put what you think next to what they think and talk to them and get something out of it Why this? Why that?. Dishonest people are just noise.
If there was a version of somebody I hate--like Karl Rove--sitting right here in my house who answered questions about what motivated them as earnestly as JamesMal and Vincent Baker did, I'd appreciate the fact that it was an opportunity to learn what made such an asshole tick. I don't have to guess and be one more dumb asshole guessing.
Somebody who just evades and fucks around--they're no use to anyone.
Baker likes games I hate and challenges the people who show up in his discussions a lot less (or at least a lot less directly) than I do. We talk about this. I know now what he thinks, how this happened, how much effort he's willing to put into it. Why he made those decisions, What he thinks it cost him. Why he made these choices constantly, what he 's into. What we do and don't agree about. (He is a pretty intense free speech advocate, despite the company he keeps.)
JM is (or was) a pretty strict Catholic and I'm a porn actor. But if I go "Ok, James so why...?" he gives an answer. And now I know some things I never really thought about before about being that kind of person, running those kinds of games, blah blah blah
(Obviously after Dwimmermount, he shrunk away--but that's a whole other issue. And, yeah--I do hope whoever was owed money on that got paid.)
He doesn't leave everyone on the internet in the position where they have to guess what's going on in the person they hate's head. And that reticence and fear of exposure and dishonesty is what leads to all the strawman arglebargle talking-past bullshit you get every day--people refusing to say what they think and instead putting up some front.
You'll never have universal agreement--but you can have disagreement that's productive. And JM did and VB does, and if you don't respect that--then maybe you just use the internet for a different reason I do.
I have a lot of patience for people who will talk back. That's pretty much all we do here: talk.
That's...a pretty good philosophy actually.
Quote from: TristramEvans;808229It was a Kickstarter the Grognardia author ran for megadungeon he'd been discussing on the blog and elsewhere for a while. There was a lot of positive buzz about it. The kickstarter was successful, but then he was late. Then he was late some more. Then he was very late. Then he had a personal tragedy in his life and stopped communicating online with his backers about how late he was. About that point the shit hit the fan on various forums. People bitched and bitched and bitched about how late it was and how uncommunicative he was being.
Then, finally, a group of people he was working with on the project took it over from him completely and finally finished it.
1) Was the project good once it was done. 2) Did he ever explain himself?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;8082361) Was the project good once it was done. 2) Did he ever explain himself?
1. It's a matter of debate, though better received than most people had expected, I think (though a chunk of it was written by the people who took it over--it's not really wholly his anymore)
2. Basically he had a lot of personal problems at the time and his life was a mess and he bit off more than he could chew--which he's copped to.
Quote from: TristramEvans;808230That's...a pretty good philosophy actually.
Yeah, agreed.
The entire content of Dwimmermount (sans art and the name Dwimmmermount) is under the Open Game License. And there is a trademark license for Dwimmermount itself.
When things went south with the fulfillment of the Kickstarter, I was among several people called in to see if there is a path forward. I was there because of the cartography I did. During this process I pushed strongly to see if there was a way to get the whole thing under a open license. My sentiment was if the community was going to bail James out of his project we should get something back more than just the project. I thought the fairest thing was to put the whole of the text under the open game license (along with completing the project).
Autarch deserves a lot of credit for getting this beast done and done well.
Quote from: estar;808700The entire content of Dwimmermount (sans art and the name Dwimmmermount) is under the Open Game License. And there is a trademark license for Dwimmermount itself.
Is that so?
That really is something.
Quote from: estar;808700The entire content of Dwimmermount (sans art and the name Dwimmmermount) is under the Open Game License. And there is a trademark license for Dwimmermount itself.
Are the maps OGL?
Quote from: Zak S;808705Are the maps OGL?
Yes, from page 410.
DESIGNATION OF PRODUCT IDENTITY The names Autarch™, Adventurer Conqueror King™, Adventurer Conqueror King System™, ACKS™, Laby-rinth Lord™, Advanced Labyrinth Lord™, Goblinoid Games™, and Dwimmermount™, when used in any context, are product identity. The title Dwimmermount is Product Identity. All artwork, logos, and presentation are product identity.
DESIGNATION OF OPEN GAME CONTENT All maps, text, tables, and game statistics are open game content, with the exception of text and terms defined above as product identity.
There is a trademark license for the name Dwimmermount itself on page 411.
The conditions are.
1. You must comply fully with the Open Game License, version 1.0a, as described above; and
2. The work may not be obscene in nature; in general, any work contain-ing subject matter that would qualify for an NC-17 movie rating in the United States, or an R rating due to explicit sexual content, is considered obscene for purposes of this license.
For doing the above you get the feeling following,
If you comply with the above conditions, you may use the product iden-tity element “Autarch”, “Adventurer Conqueror King”, “Adventurer Conqueror King System”, “ACKS”, or “Dwimmermount” for the pur-poses of identifying the source of open content which is re-used from this document and discussing the relationship of the derivative work to this original, subject to the following terms:
a. Any work making use of these elements must designate these elements as product identity in accordance with section 1(e) of the Open Game License version 1.0a;
b. Any work making use of these elements must bear a notice declaring the fact that Autarch, Adventurer Conqueror King, Adventurer Conquer-or King System, and ACKS are trademarks of Autarch LLC and that Dwimmermount is a trademark of James Maliszewski
That is actually very, very cool. Is there a link available to get the module?
Quote from: Zak S;808704Is that so?
That really is something.
Aw yeah. Jack Shear (misterguignol) even cooked up his own heavy metal gonzo version, Devilmount (http://talesofthegrotesqueanddungeonesque.blogspot.com.br/2013/03/devilmount-arise.html). All I remember about it is that he substituted dwarves for greys (you know, Roswell aliens), and elves for cambions. Good stuff.
How heavily was it re-written? How much does it remain JM's work?
Comparing it to the draft copy (which was like 8 months after the KS), I'd say it's about 60-70% his words, probably 90% his ideas.
Draft
QuoteA large metal cylinder festooned with pipes, tubing, and valves occupies the center of this room. This is an azoth distiller and is non-functional when the room is first entered, unless the characters have first restored power to it in Room 3. If functional, the distiller takes a large quantity of raw azoth and creates much smaller quantities of universal medicine (see page XX). Unfortunately, the distiller is damaged and thus its output is wildly unpredictable -- far more likely to produce dangerous and/or poisonous substances than the miracle liquids the ancient Thulians once produced in large quantities. At present, the distiller is only 20% likely per use to produce beneficial results; the other 80% of the time, one of the following results occurs:
Final
QuoteA large nephelite cylinder festooned with adamantine steel pipes, resin tubing, and orichalcum valves occupies the center of this room. This is an
azoth distiller. The distiller will not function until the characters have first restored power in the Power Generator (Room 10) and activated the Distillation Room in the Control Room (Room 3). Once functional the distiller can be used to refine raw azoth into a variety of azoth products. To use the distiller, a character need only pour 36 ounces of raw azoth into its still pot, wait 1d6 hours, and then collect the distillate substance from the receiving
flask. While the machine could at one time be calibrated to safely produce specific refined substances, age and abuse have left it damaged and unpredictable. Each time the distiller is used, roll 1d10:
If you mean Devilmount, I dunno, but it seemed close to the draft with parody elements added (like the Scooby Doo gang)
Yeah I knew devilmount was inside the line, I just didn't know if the final draft version was fair game.
I also miss his blog.
If anyone's wondering why Dwimmermount being OGL is a great idea, here's a proof-of-concept of what you can do:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/01/madlibmount-you-now-own-megadungeon.html
Ha that's pretty nifty, Zak. Thanks!
Quote from: TristramEvans;808229It was a Kickstarter the Grognardia author ran for megadungeon he'd been discussing on the blog and elsewhere for a while. There was a lot of positive buzz about it. The kickstarter was successful, but then he was late. Then he was late some more. Then he was very late. Then he had a personal tragedy in his life and stopped communicating online with his backers about how late he was. About that point the shit hit the fan on various forums. People bitched and bitched and bitched about how late it was and how uncommunicative he was being.
Then, finally, a group of people he was working with on the project took it over from him completely and finally finished it.
That the most generous possible way of describing what happened without being dishonest.
Quote from: estar;808700Autarch deserves a lot of credit for getting this beast done and done well.
They certainly do. It proved the quality of the Autarch people as much as it did the lack of Maliszewski's.
Quote from: RPGPundit;809674That the most generous possible way of describing what happened without being dishonest.
I didn't follow the drama that closely...most threads on the subject turned into 100+ page monsters within a day or two.
I kinda miss it too. It was the late 3e/4e era, a time past.
Quote from: RPGPundit;809674That the most generous possible way of describing what happened without being dishonest.
That's saddening because from his blog alone he seemed like a good guy.
Quote from: Necrozius;808901Ha that's pretty nifty, Zak. Thanks!
Thank you! Here's the (almost) last level MadLibbed--
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-demon-prison-of-madlibmount.html
Quote from: Planet Algol;806343Me too. Plus he got me using lacunae in my vocabulary.
^^^
I tell you which blog I really miss......hint hint.
Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;810196^^^
I tell you which blog I really miss......hint hint.
Speaking of, where's Black Vulmea these days?
Quote from: TristramEvans;810198Speaking of, where's Black Vulmea these days?
He posted this on his blog way back in 2013:
I've pulled back from the handful of forums where I participate as well; those are an even worse time-sink than blogging, and with far less to show for the effort.I'm guessing that feeling grew.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;810206He posted this on his blog in 2013:
I've pulled back from the handful of forums where I participate as well; those are an even worse time-sink than blogging, and with far less to show for the effort.
I'm guessing that feeling grew.
I understand the sentiment. Its been weighing on my mind recently as well.
Quote from: TristramEvans;810207I understand the sentiment. Its been weighing on my mind recently as well.
I understand his sentiment, but I really miss his blog. His blog and his Flashing Blades site on Obsidian Portal (le-ballet-de-l-acier (https://le-ballet-de-l-acier.obsidianportal.com/)) gave me so much useful information for my Honor+Intrigue campaign. I'm deeply in his debt.
Unfortunately since Obsidian Portal did their big revamp, all their web sites look like shit on my browser which is a sort of backwards consolation for Black Vulmea not updating his Ballet site.
Quote from: TristramEvans;810207I understand the sentiment. Its been weighing on my mind recently as well.
Yes, I noticed you were gone for a while.
Quote from: estar;808700The entire content of Dwimmermount (sans art and the name Dwimmmermount) is under the Open Game License. And there is a trademark license for Dwimmermount itself.
When things went south with the fulfillment of the Kickstarter, I was among several people called in to see if there is a path forward. I was there because of the cartography I did. During this process I pushed strongly to see if there was a way to get the whole thing under a open license. My sentiment was if the community was going to bail James out of his project we should get something back more than just the project. I thought the fairest thing was to put the whole of the text under the open game license (along with completing the project).
Autarch deserves a lot of credit for getting this beast done and done well.
you know normally if somebody suddenly decided to make something open i would say its stupid but that was pretty good reasoning auctualy