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I'm writing a kung-fu RPG and I want to talk about it

Started by Azraele, August 04, 2018, 05:43:39 PM

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Azraele

Your art is really good BTW, I went to the link in your signature. Once I get my fiscal ducks in a row, remind me to PM you about doing some art for the game, if you're up to it. I feel like you'd be a good guy to add some grisly, creepy stuff to the art selection.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094Hey mate,

Wow... You've done a lot more work on this then I thought. I originally thinking it was just an idea floating around. Cool!

I've been checking out the skill and powers. I like what I'm seeing so far! The powers (or mutations) are definitely the right vibe for what I'd want to see in a 90s Manga game. Not only the cool factor, but with a lot of 'ewww' to emphasise, not only the horror but its demonic (and eastern weirdness) origins.

I see you've worked in the scalability too (with the ranking system). It reminded me a wee bit of Aberrant in terms of scale. So now we've got the ability to have enemies like the Mo fo Chojin. And can have Amano smashing that sky scraper. Nice! :)

Thanks. I've been busting my ass on it. Playtesting is gonna tell whether all the building-smashing works as intended.

God I hope so, I really want people punching their enemies through skyscrapers which collapse and bury them in rubble

I really like the squick from 90's anime; I want to fill the environments with all variety of hideous monsters and stomach-churning horror. That reminds me, I need to get back to those monster rules...

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094As I said you got a great start with the lore already, but reading further. The Shadow Vampires sound cool. I really like the inclusion of eastern style Vamps. They'd make cool player or villains. Plus, they are way cooler than the usual  western eco tropes (with the exception of those beauties 'The Sabbat').

If I were you, I'd consider taking some of the more esoteric powers from Vampire the Masquerade and reworking them to fit in with your game. Powers like, Thanotosis, Protean, Obtenebration and especially vicissitude. Nice and squiffy.... And pretty scary and unusual.

They're not necessarily vampires, just bad guys with evil kung-fu from hell. Although now that you mention it, I really should add "Chi Vampire" to the mutations list.

Maybe put some Hopping Vampires in there too...

I'd feel bad straight-up stealing from another game. Now, stealing from source material? I could see, say, Uzumaki-like stuff showing up...

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094That's great that humans are in the city... As that really opens up the game. There are a host of reasons they could be there. As you said, being bread for the vamps. Yum yum!

Of course they could easily be lured in, by the demons with all that magic they possess. The demons could simply hunt them down and bring them in as well. Which would be cool opportunity to get the players involved and see these demons unclose before they venture into the city.

"Somebody was kidnapped and now you've got to go save them" is literally the plot of Demon City Shinjuku. I'd be a fool to throw that out, a fool!

Just last night I was working on some chunks of Suicide Heaven to put in the game. If I'm, facing insomnia again tonight, I'll tucker myself out by writing it up in a more-or-less comprehensible form for you enjoyment.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094Personally, I'd also look at the old Mortal Combat games - just for some lore and maybe OTT characters. I quite like the whole shadow realm. Not the movies though as they were dross!

I think the different hells thing opens up a lot of possibilities as well as factions that could have some great in fighting and maybe some interesting infiltration type games too.

Well remember, our demon city Suicide Heaven is but one small chunk of our post-apocalypse map:

Spoiler
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2753[/ATTACH]

See that city on the lower left-hand side of the map, bordering the ocean? That's Suicide Heaven. In the game, it'll get its own map, about the size of your standard megadungeon. Like so(ish) MSPAINT POWERS GO:

Spoiler
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2754[/ATTACH]

And each one of those keyed sections will get its own breakdown too (like that "3" up there would look like this):

Spoiler
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2755[/ATTACH]

The whole setting is getting maps like that.

So, as you can imagine, I'll be needing vast swathes of good ideas. Warring hell factions sound like great map-stuffers; plenty of content to mine there!

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094There are definitely some horror flicks, that you might want to have a gander at (if you've not seen them). Especially for that weird Jap(anese) body horror.

Cronnenberg's 'The Brood' is a Kimon Devil right there! A female mutant that gives birth to small fucked up avatars of herself. She controls them with her emotions. Obviously you'd make her more powerful to suit the game.

Cronnenberg's Scanners is another one of using horrific psychic powers.

I presume you've seen Urotsukidoji? Bar the tits and tentacles... This movie is a gold mine.

I like Cronenberg's work; I own eXistenz, Dead Ringers, Scanners, and Videodrome and I've seen Slither. Somehow I missed The Brood, so thanks for the recommendation!

I'm familiar with the works of Junji Ito (stuff from Uzumaki and the Enigma of Amigara Fault are showing up in some form in the game) but I'd never heard of Urotsukidoji, so thanks again! Now that mind-melter is going to inspire some terrifying game content...

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094With the Martial arts, it sounds like you're on the right track. By using X move and combining it with some kind of power (if special). Or you could also have a block of attacks representing one of those typical OTT flurries that are of then seen in FotNS.

You could have some kind of mana (or endurance mechanic) to stop people burning through their powers too easily. Although, it depends on how powerful they are.

Yeah, I'm actually working on the magic resource rules right now. The games that inspired this used "chi" and Exalted uses "essence" and this game uses "Prana". You've got to power your magic kung-fu moves by spending it, and they basically more your sets bigger or give you more attacks.

And a bunch of other crazy stuff too, because it's freaking magical kung-fu! You've got to something fun with it!

 
Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094Also, how assessable with this city be? I presume the regular military have tried to invade or nuke it? So is it shielded some how and can only be open with magic?

Well I mean, it's the post-apocalypse; I figure you can just walk in to the hell-city.  

Although there are rules for piloting and/or punching tanks, so it's not out of the question to have tanks fighting the forces of hell.

The really ridiculous nuclear-weapon equivalent stuff (and actual nuclear weapons worshipped as gods) are modellable within the framework of the rules. Although it's probably less fun to atomize a section of the demon city than to adventure in it, I don't think that's a bad late-game thing to happen.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1052094Yeah, I totally get that. When you want to play a game and it doesn't exist - just make it!!

Your enthusiasm fuels me!
Joel T. Clark: Proprietor of the Mushroom Press, Member of the Five Emperors
Buy Lone Wolf Fists! https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416442/Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists

The Exploited.

Thanks for your kind words re. my art btw. :)


Yep! I hear that. Punching monsters through skyscrapers and having immense energy discharges is where it's at (for the genre). And basically, as much collateral damage as possible! Definitely count me in as a play tester!

The Uzmakai sound cool. I love the idea of 'spirals' being used as some kind of old arcane curse. Very Lovecraftian or the Unknown Armies RPG.

Cool... Those hopping vamps are scary bastards. I do like the Japanese spirits. And you gott'a get some of those split mouthed demon women in there - And basically make them unpredictable or your own take. The whole premise is ripe for horror but with that epic cinematic scale.

Nothing wrong with borrowing material from another game, everyone does it. Just tweak it a little! ;)


There's so much you could do... To get human in there. Be fun just having their spirits going in there while the sleep a land of exquisite nightmares (if you wanted to go all dreamlands). Maybe the demons can start controlling them while their spirits reside in the 'city'. You wake up in the morning to find a collection of severed heads at the bottom of your bed.

Of course bad poeple could want to go into the city and could make demonic acts as well. Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud here.

I like what you are doing with the maps (and how your breaking them up)! That will be a great resource for a GM.

I've not heard of the Junji stuff mate to be honest, so I'll have to check it out. Urotsukidoji is a must though. Um... Just don't mind some of the weird... well... weird bits (to say it gently). It's a very solid idea beyond that. The 'Makai' are a great source of demonic goodness. :)


Hah... Okay, that's clearer for me now. So you can 'walk in' but I'll bet many don't....

Cheers! Well, your enthusiasm is fueling mine. Okay, that's getting weird now. ;)

Later!
https://www.instagram.com/robnecronomicon/

\'Attack minded and dangerously so.\' - W. E. Fairbairn.

Luca

Quote from: Azraele;1052377I'm familiar with the works of Junji Ito (stuff from Uzumaki and the Enigma of Amigara Fault are showing up in some form in the game) but I'd never heard of Urotsukidoji, so thanks again! Now that mind-melter is going to inspire some terrifying game content...

Fair warning: Urotsukidoji is famous as the work which popularized the "tentacle rape" trope.
Just so you know at what, exactly, you're going to look ;)

The Exploited.

Quote from: Luca;1052634Fair warning: Urotsukidoji is famous as the work which popularized the "tentacle rape" trope.
Just so you know at what, exactly, you're going to look ;)

Yeah... It's not exactly kid's film. I'm not mad on Hentai at all. But beyond that I think it's a solid film. However, I think Azraele can take it if he's a Cronenberg fan.
https://www.instagram.com/robnecronomicon/

\'Attack minded and dangerously so.\' - W. E. Fairbairn.

AsenRG

Quote from: Azraele;1051848Also, and I've devoted significant thought to this: I'm unsure what elements of wuxia combat are translatable into game mechanics. One of the strengths of say, D&D combat is that it is attempting to simulate situations that happen in reality (like, you can make a shieldwall or poke somebody with a spear or get into a wedge formation or a phalanx or...). Wuxia is heavily stylized, but that's for the benefit of an audience, making it less strategic and more purely visual.
I'd disagree:).
D&D doesn't deal with reality at high levels. When using what's basically a flamethrower is no longer your most powerful option, and you're bending time and space, you're far, far beyond reality.
You actually should avoid going that far (no wuxia move I know of has influenced time;)).

QuoteLike, how do you translate that style outside of the aforementioned storygame mechanics? "Oh your description was super cool, have more dice!" is as close as I've ever seen that done (Exalted did this with Stunt dice) but that eventually turned into such a tactically essential element of combat that it caused arguments at the table.
If I was making it? Well, option one: look at LotW, find a way to do the same with lighter mechanic that don't make me dread the idea of multiple masters duking it out:D! Because it was doing everything right. It's just that the "everything" was a whole damn lot:p!

Option two, use a very simple and stable system, a la BRP/Flashing Blades/Traveller, but have rules determining when you can activate a higher level of your kung-fu, or different kinds of kung-fu at once (somewhat like Spellbound Kingdoms). Because if you do, you trump the guy who hasn't managed it (like with Masteries in HQ2, though I was actually thinking abut the skill levels in Flashing Blades).
However, even if you don't manage to pull a trump card, you can still win by defeating the enemy in the normal combat system.

Now, if I was doing it, I'd do it differently, no doubt. But my thoughts on the matter still haven't crystalised enough to be presented in a legible manner...


Quote from: Azraele;1052090Hmm, this is difficult to answer not because I don't know, but because I don't really have a vocabulary for explaining what makes anything a strategic challenge

There's this thing that my game does, which games I love do. Games like Risk, or Magic the Gathering, or even Settlers of Catan:

Like in Risk, when you've got enemies on more than one front, and you've got to decide between viable attacks and your long-term strategy...
Like in Magic, where you're playing a counterspell deck and you've got to choose between spending your mana on card draw or saving it to counter the foe's cards...
Like in Catan, where you have several build options and you've got to decide if it's better to build a new town or build a good town into a city...

I'm going to term that Strategically Viable Options. Essentially, you can choose between multiple options to "answer" any strategic "question", and there's a good argument for many of them.


Like, when you roll your dice on your turn, there are a lot of uses for the results. You can do a lot of attacks, or turtle up into defense, or split them, or use your skills, etc. etc. And all of that stuff can win you fights. There are a lot of ways to win a fight, and your strategic challenge is in choosing the one(s) that are most advantageous for this specific fight, in these specific circumstances.

That's what I'm doing here with "strategic challenge".
OK, now tell us which elements of your system contribute to making multiple options viable.
What prevents the player from creating a one-trick pony and always winning with the same attack;)?

QuoteThat's the thing; it's emulating something that is already an emulation. I can play Darkstalkers to scratch the itch that Fight! is trying to, and that's a load more convenient and satisfying.
That depends on whether you see fighting games as emulation of wuxia for console gaming, or as their own thing, ne? For the record, I can see arguments in favour of either position...and in the end it's all in the eyes of the beholders (the people at the table).

Because Fight! clearly doesn't see fighting games as emulation, and it's treating it as its own thing. If you don't share this opinion, yes, it's not the game for you.

QuoteIt's also got a similar problem to Weapons of the Gods, in that it's basically just a fighting engine (what my wife would call a "punching game"). It's a really good engine, too! But that's it; I want to adventure in my RPGs, and you simply need more than combat mechanics for that.
Do you, really;)?
Or rather, how much mechanics do you need:p?
I mean, mechanics can be fun in and of themselves. But it doesn't make them necessary.
What Do You Do In Tekumel? See examples!
"Life is not fair. If the campaign setting is somewhat like life then the setting also is sometimes not fair." - Bren

Azraele

#20
Quote from: Luca;1052634Fair warning: Urotsukidoji is famous as the work which popularized the "tentacle rape" trope.
Just so you know at what, exactly, you're going to look ;)
Quote from: The Exploited.;1052657Yeah... It's not exactly kid's film. I'm not mad on Hentai at all. But beyond that I think it's a solid film. However, I think Azraele can take it if he's a Cronenberg fan.

I appreciate the warning, but you assessment is correct; I can handle this kind of stuff.

@Asen: I'm not sure how to answer your post? You're literally free to download my game and read the blog where I explain, in great detail, all the options available to characters and how that creates a rich and varied strategic landscape. Here's the early playtest, my blog is linked here, and here's a playtest done by the great ImprovGM if you're not in a reading mood.

Edit: You know, I think I figured out where we're getting our wires crossed after all. Since I'm up late anyway, I decided to do two things, one of which was write you a proper reply
I'll leave the other thing to your imagination

[video=youtube;LpgRE8cbVpc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpgRE8cbVpc[/youtube]

Quote from: AsenRG;1052675I'd disagree:).
D&D doesn't deal with reality at high levels. When using what's basically a flamethrower is no longer your most powerful option, and you're bending time and space, you're far, far beyond reality.
You actually should avoid going that far (no wuxia move I know of has influenced time;)).

My D&D doesn't go past level 14 buddy. Although fun fact: I realized as I was writing this game that yeah, I was basically doing another go at the epic level handbook from 3rd edition. Oops.
It's not going to be possible for you to understand what I'm talking about with stuff like the Shared Mindspace and Tactical Infinity if you don't know how good D&D has been since it's inception. Here's some knowledge to help you out with that:

Zack S> and John Wick talk about the Shared Mindspace

Guide to how Grognards think

And also almost anything Pundit says on the matter is pretty accurate too. He makes some videos, I'm told.

Quote from: AsenRG;1052675If I was making it? Well, option one: look at LotW, find a way to do the same with lighter mechanic that don't make me dread the idea of multiple masters duking it out:D! Because it was doing everything right. It's just that the "everything" was a whole damn lot:p!

Even Arik Ten Broeke, one of the key designers of that game, has told me that he didn't feel it did "everything right". So I'm going to agree to disagree with you on that one.
Although, if you want "LotW light", it's what I was initially working on. I'd highly recommend checking out the half-burnt manual by my pal Zechstyr: not only is it approved by the designers of the game, but he was working with us when we first started work on "Wulin Light" and he's a fucking genius.


Quote from: AsenRG;1052675Option two, use a very simple and stable system, a la BRP/Flashing Blades/Traveller, but have rules determining when you can activate a higher level of your kung-fu, or different kinds of kung-fu at once (somewhat like Spellbound Kingdoms). Because if you do, you trump the guy who hasn't managed it (like with Masteries in HQ2, though I was actually thinking abut the skill levels in Flashing Blades).
However, even if you don't manage to pull a trump card, you can still win by defeating the enemy in the normal combat system.

Now, if I was doing it, I'd do it differently, no doubt. But my thoughts on the matter still haven't crystalised enough to be presented in a legible manner...

Yeah well... I'm a big fan of talking about things that exist outside of my own head. A lot of people talk a big game but can't design their way out of a damp bag of popcorn.
If you want to write down your own system ideas and post them up, I'll be happy to check them out and give you my thoughts. It sounds like you'd take it in a different direction, but that's cool. Wuxia is a big genre, there's room for lots of interpretations.

Quote from: AsenRG;1052675OK, now tell us which elements of your system contribute to making multiple options viable.

You're putting up some pretty vague goalposts there. If there's more than one way to strategically approach a situation, any of which is viable (in that it has some chance of success), then you're describing almost everything.

Take a house, for instance. You might say the "best" option for entering it is opening the front door, but you could reasonably go around the back door, or climb through a window, or smash a wall down with a wrecking ball and stroll in the through the rubble.

My game lets you solve the problem of "get in the house" by any of those ways and more. It does this by having easy-to-comprehend rules for letting the players approach whatever problem in whatever way they choose.

Roll dice, consider skills, consult effect chart. Or maybe look at your brief list of kung-fu super powers and see if any might help you. Or just use your description to interact with the world ("I put my trusty ladder against the side of the house and climb down the chimney" doesn't really require rules consultation, but is possible in any reasonable RPG)

Come to think of it, what RPG doesn't allow this? Or maybe you're limiting your comment to combat, in which case...

Quote from: AsenRG;1052675What prevents the player from creating a one-trick pony and always winning with the same attack;)?

Playtesting. When we encounter a "one true build", we fix it. Simple as that.

There are probably "better" builds in terms of "white-room" combat, but given the omnipresence and usability of the setting, the edge of those generalized builds are rapidly dulled. More limited but situationally useful builds are just going to outshine them when they come up, which can be very often given the right strategy.

For instance; your super-broken archer build has a huge advantage in nearly every circumstance. He can't fast-travel through the flooded tunnel network underground though, because arrows suck in water and the mutant water-benders are down there, just aching to freeze him in a magical wave.

Basically, the things that keep one strategy from dominating real-life combat and warfare answer your question. Again, this is true of most RPG settings since D&D.

Quote from: AsenRG;1052675That depends on whether you see fighting games as emulation of wuxia for console gaming, or as their own thing, ne? For the record, I can see arguments in favour of either position...and in the end it's all in the eyes of the beholders (the people at the table).

I actually cannot comprehend what you're talking about in this paragraph. You've entered into some kind of cyclical spiral of non-Euclidian thinking that is impenetrable to me.

Quote from: AsenRG;1052675Because Fight! clearly doesn't see fighting games as emulation, and it's treating it as its own thing. If you don't share this opinion, yes, it's not the game for you.

Again, what do you mean by "see games as emulation"? Do you mean they're roleplaying games? Because yeah, I think it's a critical flaw if somebody makes a board game and calls it an RPG. "I have fifty pages of mechanics on punching!" is not an RPG; sorry, it doesn't make the cut.

What you have is a combat system. That means everything else is fiat, which inevitably means that a bad system will be put in place for it as I lovingly describe in this post.


Quote from: AsenRG;1052675Do you, really;)?
Or rather, how much mechanics do you need:p?
I mean, mechanics can be fun in and of themselves. But it doesn't make them necessary.

You seem to think that mechanics and RPG exist in two neat, separate boxes. They don't; RPGs are their mechanics. When the mechanics suck, your game sucks. If you fail to link your mechanics with what happens in the game, your game sucks.
This isn't final fantasy; the world doesn't swirl and take you to a battle screen minigame, distinct from the normal universe.

Or rather, if an RPG does that, it's failing to achieve the sophisticated fusion of game and imagination that RPGs were fucking born with. What's their excuse? D&D has been doing this since the seventies for god's sake.
Joel T. Clark: Proprietor of the Mushroom Press, Member of the Five Emperors
Buy Lone Wolf Fists! https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416442/Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists

AsenRG

Quote from: Azraele;1052680@Asen: I'm not sure how to answer your post? You're literally free to download my game and read the blog where I explain, in great detail, all the options available to characters and how that creates a rich and varied strategic landscape. Here's the early playtest, my blog is linked here, and here's a playtest done by the great ImprovGM if you're not in a reading mood.
Now with less detail:)!
(I've downloaded the "eyebleed version" already, thanks. But I thought the idea wasn't to sell it just to the guy who managed to get his Strike in LotW to over +100;)? When people are asking you such questions on a forum, especially if you've published links to your blog, they're usually looking for the tl;dr version).


QuoteEdit: You know, I think I figured out where we're getting our wires crossed after all. Since I'm up late anyway, I decided to do two things, one of which was write you a proper reply
I'll leave the other thing to your imagination
OK. I don't care whether the other thing is drinking or fucking, so let's keep ahead...


QuoteMy D&D doesn't go past level 14 buddy.
...which means you only get to 7-th level spells, which include stuff like bending reality, flying, being invisible, seeing a target miles away, killing anyone whose personality/beliefs oppose yours, summoning a celestial dire lion, touching someone and killing him, turning a target to stone, and the like. Yeah, I see at least a couple that aren't really available in wuxia.

QuoteAlthough fun fact: I realized as I was writing this game that yeah, I was basically doing another go at the epic level handbook from 3rd edition.
Oops.
With great power come great similarities:D!

QuoteIt's not going to be possible for you to understand what I'm talking about with stuff like the Shared Mindspace and Tactical Infinity if you don't know how good D&D has been since it's inception. Here's some knowledge to help you out with that:

Zack S> and John Wick talk about the Shared Mindspace

Guide to how Grognards think

And also almost anything Pundit says on the matter is pretty accurate too. He makes some videos, I'm told.
OK, just one question...how did you come to the idea that I "don't know how good D&D has been since its inception"?

QuoteEven Arik Ten Broeke, one of the key designers of that game, has told me that he didn't feel it did "everything right". So I'm going to agree to disagree with you on that one.
Admittedly, you're right, it doesn't. There were at least a few things like disarming that it didn't do right.
But it did get most of it right within the high-power wuxia genre. And I was willing to forgive a lot for the interplay of Laughs At and Fear mechanics.

QuoteAlthough, if you want "LotW light", it's what I was initially working on. I'd highly recommend checking out the half-burnt manual by my pal Zechstyr: not only is it approved by the designers of the game, but he was working with us when we first started work on "Wulin Light" and he's a fucking genius.
That's getting offensive... I was running a LotW game online, using the Half-Burnt Manual as a supplement, a couple of years ago.

QuoteYeah well... I'm a big fan of talking about things that exist outside of my own head. A lot of people talk a big game but can't design their way out of a damp bag of popcorn.
If you want to write down your own system ideas and post them up, I'll be happy to check them out and give you my thoughts. It sounds like you'd take it in a different direction, but that's cool. Wuxia is a big genre, there's room for lots of interpretations.
Well, I'm still not sure how I want the Flow ability to interface with the Nei Gong and Wai Gong abilities...:D
Once I'm more clear on that, I'd have a better grasp on the future mechanics. Until then, I'd rather use other people's wuxia games;).

QuoteYou're putting up some pretty vague goalposts there. If there's more than one way to strategically approach a situation, any of which is viable (in that it has some chance of success), then you're describing almost everything.

Take a house, for instance. You might say the "best" option for entering it is opening the front door, but you could reasonably go around the back door, or climb through a window, or smash a wall down with a wrecking ball and stroll in the through the rubble.

My game lets you solve the problem of "get in the house" by any of those ways and more. It does this by having easy-to-comprehend rules for letting the players approach whatever problem in whatever way they choose.

Roll dice, consider skills, consult effect chart. Or maybe look at your brief list of kung-fu super powers and see if any might help you. Or just use your description to interact with the world ("I put my trusty ladder against the side of the house and climb down the chimney" doesn't really require rules consultation, but is possible in any reasonable RPG)

Come to think of it, what RPG doesn't allow this? Or maybe you're limiting your comment to combat, in which case...
Not necessarily just combat, no, but then when discussing wuxia, I tend to look at that system first. No idea why I'd do that;).

QuotePlaytesting. When we encounter a "one true build", we fix it. Simple as that.[/QUOTE
I approve of this approach.


QuoteI actually cannot comprehend what you're talking about in this paragraph. You've entered into some kind of cyclical spiral of non-Euclidian thinking that is impenetrable to me.
Yes! The forbidden tomes I've been reading finally work:p!

QuoteAgain, what do you mean by "see games as emulation"?
"Are fighting games emulations of fighting, or their own thing?"

QuoteWhat you have is a combat system. That means everything else is fiat, which inevitably means that a bad system will be put in place for it as I lovingly describe in this post.

Not necessarily. See Flashing Blades where the system is neither absent, nor does it require frequent rolling;).

QuoteYou seem to think that mechanics and RPG exist in two neat, separate boxes.
You seem to presume to know what I'm thinking. The only problem I think is when what you assume is wrong. Like, in this post you wasted lots of time explaining what I think or know...and you haven't been right on a single of those cases.

QuoteThey don't; RPGs are their mechanics. When the mechanics suck, your game sucks. If you fail to link your mechanics with what happens in the game, your game sucks.
Biggest garbage has never been written.
 
QuoteOr rather, if an RPG does that, it's failing to achieve the sophisticated fusion of game and imagination that RPGs were fucking born with. What's their excuse? D&D has been doing this since the seventies for god's sake.
Wait, Fight! the Fighting Game RPG is "a punching game", because it's just a fighting mechanic, "games are their mechanics", but "D&D was born in the 70ies with the right mix of game and imagination":p? One or more of these ain't true, man!
What Do You Do In Tekumel? See examples!
"Life is not fair. If the campaign setting is somewhat like life then the setting also is sometimes not fair." - Bren

Azraele

Quote from: AsenRG;1052742...

Hey Asen

I'm pretty ok with leaving this particular conversation thread here. It's becoming preeeeeetty clear that we're not the same page

Good luck with your game, buddy ;-)
Joel T. Clark: Proprietor of the Mushroom Press, Member of the Five Emperors
Buy Lone Wolf Fists! https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416442/Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists

AsenRG

Quote from: Azraele;1052746Hey Asen

I'm pretty ok with leaving this particular conversation thread here. It's becoming preeeeeetty clear that we're not the same page

Good luck with your game, buddy ;-)

I wish more people had the good sense to stop a discussion like that:)!
Fine, let's drop it.

BTW, I'm not working on any wuxia game now, and wouldn't be for at least a couple years more at least. But thanks for the well wishes, I'll remind you about that if I finish my current project;).
What Do You Do In Tekumel? See examples!
"Life is not fair. If the campaign setting is somewhat like life then the setting also is sometimes not fair." - Bren

Bedrockbrendan

On the topic of D&D and wuxia. I've run quite a few such campaigns and my two cents is your first question when doing so should be am I using D&D to run a wuxia campaign or am I adding wuxia elements to my D&D campaign. The answer takes you down two completely different paths. I had pretty good success with 3E for wuxia because the multiclassing rules, prestige classes, feats and spells could all be used to emulate the genre. Also, if you were willing to make your own classes, you could have martial arts techniques that we're simple class abilities in the style of the monk or ones that functioned more like spells. If you take a page from 4E you can turn the Vancian system into more regularly available martial abilities. Also just the sheer volume of material was good for letting me mix and match until I got what I wanted. There are tons of third party material to draw on as well (for different editions as well). So if you like cobbling until a game fits your exact taste, I think it has a lot of tools to draw on. I had fun tweaking D&D to my wuxia taste in itself (though there were games that fit my taste better out of the box).

Azraele

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1052826On the topic of D&D and wuxia.
I've run quite a few such campaigns and my two cents is: your first question when doing so should be
1.   am I using D&D to run a wuxia campaign or
2.   am I adding wuxia elements to my D&D campaign?
 The answer takes you down two completely different paths.

True. A game built around wuxia as a core conceit is way different than one that isn't.
I think one of the reasons that the monk class draws such sharp criticism as a discordant element is because it's drawing on a totally different set of conceits

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1052826I had pretty good success with 3E for wuxia because the multiclassing rules, prestige classes, feats and spells could all be used to emulate the genre.
Also, if you were willing to make your own classes, you could have martial arts techniques that were simple class abilities in the style of the monk or ones that functioned more like spells.
 If you take a page from 4E you can turn the Vancian system into more regularly available martial abilities.

4E is pretty great for wuxia, yes. You likely won't be surprised to learn that we are far from the only people to come to this conclusion. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?400422-4e-As-a-Basis-for-a-Wuxia-Game)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1052826Also just the sheer volume of material was good for letting me mix and match until I got what I wanted.
 There are tons of third party material to draw on as well (for different editions as well).
So if you like cobbling until a game fits your exact taste, I think it has a lot of tools to draw on.
 I had fun tweaking D&D to my wuxia taste in itself (though there were games that fit my taste better out of the box).
That is, I think, one of the elements of RPGs that is both inspiring and frustrating. I can hack D&D or GURPS or similar games (that have existed longer than I have) to do pretty much anything.
It's only the persistent dissatisfaction with my results meeting my expectations that ever drives me to design my own game. God knows it isn't for monetary reward XD
Joel T. Clark: Proprietor of the Mushroom Press, Member of the Five Emperors
Buy Lone Wolf Fists! https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416442/Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists

RPGPundit

I think that the tricky part about doing a Kung-fu game is figuring out how to do the fighting styles and the powers in a way that's both interesting/engaging and yet not unbalanced and open to powergaming/min-maxing.
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Azraele

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053560I think that the tricky part about doing a Kung-fu game is figuring out how to do the fighting styles and the powers in a way that's both interesting/engaging and yet not unbalanced and open to powergaming/min-maxing.

True. It's easy to get caught up in making them too balanced, though. What you want, I find, is a game that's robust enough to deal with a carefully-crafted imbalance. Here, watch another entertaining video:

[video=youtube;e31OSVZF77w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w[/youtube]

You've probably seen that before. What you likely haven't seen before, however, is this new blog post I made about the kung-fu moves in the game. So here it is:

Spoiler


I really only like the first few episodes of Dragonball Z.

The set-up is great; the world's greatest, magical martial artist and his almost-equally powerful demonic rival get totally beaten by an alien superman. In the first episode, he's already doing the Zod thing and demanding the hero break his moral code and kill a bunch of folks or lose his son.

The stakes are high; mortal foes Goku and Piccolo must join forces to have any hope of overcoming Raditz or he'll destroy the world. Not a bad opener.

Best part? He kicks their asses. Raditz completely mops the floor with them; the whole fight is a long and desperate series of high-stakes failures. It's only through a suicidal act of self-sacrifice that the duo can beat him, which starts the series off by killing the main character. Incredible.

Gets better though; his two buddies are coming in a year, and they make him look like a weakling. That's right folks; this guy wasn't even the miniboss, he was the goomba.

So the next few episodes, where we're mostly watching the characters training, you've got a powerful tension that makes them a lot more consumable. Toriyama also does a great job of showing how difficult and strange the training is, and he shows just enough improvement to give us a sense of progress.

We follow both Goku training with King Kai in the afterlife and his son Gohan training in Piccolo's demonic style on earth. The dynamic of master and student is interesting. The masters become proud of their students, learn about them, discipline them, and show genuine excitement as their mastery improves.

At one point Kai is like "Holy shit, this dude is going to master Kaioken. I'm immortal and I never thought this would happen!"

Importantly, we don't see either student use their new powers right away. Toriyama knows a thing or two about drawing out that content: son of a (fine, upstanding young woman, no doubt) makes us wait until the fight with the Saiyans gets well underway before we get to see that action.

And that fight is a ballbuster too. The miniboss Sayian Nappa chews through 9/10ths of the main cast before Goku sprints his hairy ass to the battle. There's heartbreak after heartbreak as characters fight their very hardest and die in utter futility against these bastards.

It's only after he's broken our hearts and totally convinced us that the series is doomed that Toriyama lets Goku arrive. It's only then, when he shreds Nappa in the opening shots of the battle, that we get a sense of just how much all that training paid off.

Anyway it's not something to miss. Go and buy the fist season DVD and be happy. It stays reasonably good up through the Frieza saga then falls apart, but it never gets to those heights again.

...

What's the takeaway from this? There's a lot to unpack, but for the sake of focus I'm going to direct your attention to how the characters learn and what that means for them.

Goku clearly learns new moves when he trains with King Kai. The act of learning those moves, the degree of discipline and effort required to master them, is what made him stronger.

Not just a little stronger either; he was like a different character when he returned to the world; even his best friend since childhood is like "Whoah there's... Yeah there's no way you're Goku. He's the strongest guy I know and you're unrealistically stronger than him"

I echoed this mastery-through-move-acquisition in Lone Wolf Fists. Everything links back to which new moves you learn; get a more powerful move, you get stronger in every dimension.

Another important lesson: their new moves shaped the tactical landscape of the battle. Goku's Kaioken enabled him to compete with warriors who enormously outclassed him. The final epic contest with between his Kamehameha wave and Vegeta's Galick Gun was only possible because of his power-boosting use of Kaioken.

Later, when he realizes that he's hit his limit and Vegeta is chasing him as a giant ape (this fight is rad guys), his use of the Spirit Bomb is him exercising a new tactical option at his disposal. The tactical landscape changed because he acquired new powers.

While I was writing, testing, and re-writing the rules for Techniques, I kept this firmly in mind. Techniques should never be bland; there should never be "speed bump" options that players hate. Each one should be magical, powerful, and desirable, even taken alone.

They need to open new tactical windows for players to clamber through. Sure, it's cool that you can punch a car in half now, but if you're also able to lift a building out of its foundations? Well, that's a whole new dimension of tactical options that just opened for you.

There's a lot to unpack with Techniques, too. I'll let you get to reading them; see for yourself.

...

Techniques


Techniques are magical martial arts moves. They are movements of body and spirit which focus a warrior's Prana into something at once a maneuver and a spell. Powerful, dangerous, mystical; Techniques brought about the end of the world. In its ashes, they are wielded by hero and villain alike. Can these mystic martial arts redeem themselves and bring the world to salvation? Or are they doomed to bring only ruin?

To characters, Techniques are secret mystical attacks, defenses, and other maneuvers. They are taught by masters and recovered from ancient texts; replicating them is unthinkable, as they represent the culmination of effort from countless generations of magical martial-arts grandmasters. Mastering a Technique is a triumph both of effort and soul; it is a realization of a student's destiny, and another step on their quest to self-perfection.

To players, they are special powers fueled by their character's Prana. They offer great power and acquiring them increases their character's core capabilities. You can probably see some similarities there!

How Techniques Work
Techniques are a central focus of this game; as such, there's a lot going on with them. Some of it is obvious, some of it is subtle. We're going to give you a shakedown on how Techniques work, how they're acquired, and a thorough rundown of what they do in the game and some of the consequences of that. I sure hope you grabbed that sandwich.

Elements of a Technique
Let's start by getting you familiar with the elements that comprise Techniques. Here's what they look like all together:




Here's a breakdown of the elements:

Name: The in-universe name of the Technique. These are sometimes descriptive, sometimes poetic. Generally, they offer a blend of both, telling you what a Technique does with a cool and intimidating title.
Cost: The amount of Prana which must be spent to use the Technique
Rank: Techniques generate Sets; this is the Rank of the Set.
Facing: This is the Facing of the Set. As with any Set, you may combine this with any other dice of the same Facing to increase its Rank.
Power: In addition to the Set they generate, Techniques often have other powers. They are detailed here.

Using Techniques
To use a Technique, first choose which one you want to use. You can only use one technique to enhance a single action, so choose wisely.

Next, spend Prana from one of your Chakra Pools equal to the Technique's Cost. This is an act of magic in the game's world; a martial artist channeling their Prana in a focused effort to change reality.
Now, the Technique does a few things.

First, it creates or enhances an action with a Set. This Set is equal to the Technique's Rank. So, for instance, a Rank 2 Technique creates a Rank 2 action. Simple as that.

This Set has a Facing which is, you guessed it, provided by the Technique's Facing. These are sometimes a range: 2-4 it might say. This means you get to choose any Facing within that Range. It could be a Facing of 2, or 3, or 4, in that example. You can't mix Facings; you can't have 2 and 4, for instance, and you can't choose a Facing outside of that range, like a 5.

Here's a very important note to this step: this Set made by a Technique? It works like any other Set. This means that you can combine it with Sets or dice of like-Facing.

Furthermore, actions created work like any other action. Head on back to p.XX for a refresher on them, but in brief:
 You get a single Rank 1 action per turn
You get as many Rank 2+ actions as you like per turn
You can use Rank 1 defenses as often as you like

What does this mean for Techniques? It has a lot of implications; if you have a Rank 1 Technique, you can only use it once per turn unless you're enhancing another action with it, for example. Just keep that in mind as you're learning about and using Techniques; they make Sets and Sets all work the same.

The next important thing Techniques do is unleash their Power. These are unique effects created by the Technique's magic. Techniques describe exactly how their Power manifests: sometimes this is in mechanical terms ("Creates a fire-element Hazard of Rank 3...") sometimes it is described as an effect in the Tactical Infinity ("Onlookers begin weeping uncontrollably...")

Often, a Technique's Power has one or more Keywords which enhance, direct, or limit it's uses. This is explained shortly.

After it's Effect and Set have been manifested, the Technique has expended its power and concludes. It can be used again to enhance another action if it's Cost is paid once more. Although only a single Technique may enhance a given action, multiple Techniques (or the same Technique numerous times) may be used on the same turn.

Keywords
Some powers or restrictions are common: these are grouped under Keywords for ease of use. They appear under the Power heading. Here are some common keywords:

Offensive: This Technique may only be used to increase or create an Attack.

Defensive: This Technique may only be used to increase or create a Defense.

Versatile: This Technique may be used to increase or create an attack or defense

Sustainable: Techniques bearing this keyword can be sustained, like Skills.

Counterattack: These Techniques answer the foe's attack with a deadly counter. If your Defense reduces the Attacker's total to a negative result, the Technique inflicts Damage equal to the negative total to attacker.
For example, you're attacked with a 38 result. Using a Counterattack Technique, your defense is boosted to an impressive 50. This reduces the attacker's total to -12, so they're walloped for 12 damage. Ouch!

Infuse: A Technique with this ability saturates a touched object with its cruel magic, poisoning it
On weapons or fists, this allows a strike to poison a target

More insidiously, food, drink and other consumables may be tainted so that those ingesting them suffer the effects of the poison

Infuse Techniques do not create attacks of their own; they only empower attacks. Because of this limitation, they can be used in conjunction with other Techniques. This is a special exception to the normal limit of 1 Technique per action.

Holy/ Unholy: These Techniques resonate with holy or unholy energy. They deal +1 Rank of damage to beings of the opposing type (Holy attacks smite Unholy creatures and vice versa). An unholy being cannot use a holy-keyword Technique, and likewise holy beings may not use unholy Techniques. They may still learn and teach them, however.

Levels of Technique
Each martial style has four levels of Techniques, ranging from the easiest to master to the most difficult. These levels are as follows:

Novice: The simplest and most direct Techniques. The forms that teach these techniques are taught to the most promising students. Those whose quest for self-mastery unlocks the dormant power of their Chakra learn how to focus their Prana through the motions and unleash these maneuvers. They lack the versatility and raw power of more advanced techniques but are still an expression of pure will brought to reality by magic. Most styles have four of these.

Expert: These more advanced maneuvers can only be mastered by those with the potential for greatness. They offer incredible power; some martial artists are known by their signature Expert-level Technique. Most styles have three such Techniques.

Master: Learning one of these rarified Techniques is the mark of a master (hence their name). Their wielders gain the power to achieve feats beyond the capabilities of their lessers, literally doing the impossible. These Techniques (and their masters) are respected and feared. Most styles only have two such powers.

Ultimate: These Techniques offer power beyond the pinnacle of mortal achievement. Those who
learn these maneuvers crave a might both dangerous and inhuman. These powers once destroyed the world; what can be said of those who seek them, let alone of those who master them? Complete styles have but one of these awesome Techniques.

Breaking the limits of the Effect Charts
Techniques offer power beyond their martial uses: they allow a mortal martial artist to surpass their earthly limitations and achieve godlike feats. They do this by breaking through the Rank limitations of the Effect charts. This works as follows.

Every mystical martial style has a single skill (Power, Agility, Endurance, Senses, Intellect, Heart or Spirit) which it may enhance with its Expert and higher-level Technique's Sets in lieu of providing its Power.

For example, rather than searing a foe with the Violet Immolation Arc, you may use it's Set to perform a Rank 2 Agility action (or combine it with some Effort dice to make an even higher-Ranked action).

        Novice Techniques, the weakest variety and easiest to master, cannot enhance skills this way unless their Power states that they can.
        Expert level Techniques may enhance the skill but are still bound to the limitation of 6 on the Effect charts.
       Master-level Techniques push this limitation, allowing up to Rank 7 effects.
    Ultimate Techniques unleash the full power of the effect charts, enabling terrifying Rank 8 effects.


In all cases, you must actually achieve the Rank to get it's result. Even if you unleashed an Ultimate Technique, it would only create a Rank 5 Effect unless you combined it with other Effort dice. In this way, you must fuse the most powerful magic with your character's effort and concentration to achieve the highest results.


Learning new Techniques
Characters gain power solely through their mastery of new Techniques. The self-refinement and discipline required to master ever more powerful Techniques refines their body and soul, broadening and deepening their capabilities with each new move they learn.

Mechanically, characters gain higher Degree as they learn new Techniques. The mix of Techniques necessary for this, and what new powers this unlocks, is detailed later when we talk about Degrees (p.XX)

In the meantime, let's learn how to get new moves.

Kharmic cost: to learn a new Technique, you must spend accumulated Kharma equal to it's Kharmic Cost. To characters, this represents the fusion and refinement of their many struggles with destiny into a concrete expression of its realization. To players, this is their payoff for many, many scenes of entertaining (and sometimes difficult!) roleplay.

Training: As already mentioned under Montage Scenes (p.XX), it takes a full Montage of training, self-reflection and practice to learn a new Technique.

Now, it's entirely possible that Orthogonal content, Zui consequences or just the twisted will of the GM interrupts this training with something dangerous and exciting, like a disaster or an enemy coming to seek their vengeance. This doesn't interrupt your training; as a matter of fact, it's considered a part of the training.

At any time while you're dealing with this distraction, you can unleash the new Technique for the very first time. Within the setting, these events of sudden and complete mastery of a new Technique are called Moments of Clarity. We adopt that same nomenclature out of game (because it's cool).

Training Methods: There are two; Masters and Manuals.

Masters are characters that already know the Technique. They teach the student it's nuances and guide them through a training regimen over the course of the Montage scene, ultimately culminating in the student's mastery (or failure, if they don't have the Kharma handy to pay for it).

An important note about masters is that they must willingly teach the student. Most will only do so for a student they deeply trust on a philosophical or personal level. It's not impossible to coerce one, but ultimately, they must teach the Technique willingly.

Manuals are written or recorded instruction that guide a student through the nuances and training regimen. Unlike a master, a manual cannot be asked questions, making them notoriously frustrating when the maneuver is unintuitive or difficult.

However, a manual cannot refuse to teach its lesson. In many cases, it is much easier to learn from a manual than a recalcitrant master. The creation, passing, and theft of manuals is common practice among the martial brotherhoods of the World of Ashes and Ghosts.

Joel T. Clark: Proprietor of the Mushroom Press, Member of the Five Emperors
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RPGPundit

I think I get what you mean. What I mean is that a badly designed kung-fu game is one where, much like a bad Feat system a la 3e, there's certain special maneuvers that everyone who wants character optimization has to get, so it's not about showing a given style, just about what the rules demand for you to be competitive.
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Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
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ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Azraele

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053996I think I get what you mean. What I mean is that a badly designed kung-fu game is one where, much like a bad Feat system a la 3e, there's certain special maneuvers that everyone who wants character optimization has to get, so it's not about showing a given style, just about what the rules demand for you to be competitive.

Yeah, I've been kind of petrified of that since I started banging this thing together. My strategy to kill the "one true build" as I've heard it termed is thus:

1) I try to avoid well-known pitfalls. Exalted 2nd edition was a crash-course in things that seemed like super great ideas on paper. But it was an ever-churning dumpster fire of disappointment in play; I've got a heavy bookshelf of disappointment I crack open every once in a while to remind myself of things to avoid.

2) I playtest, holy hell. There's just no substitute for seeing the moves in play. We can't catch everything by playtesting, but man we catch a lot.

3) I know enough not to totally screw up the math. I've had this guy as a fantastic resource for the core resolution system and we've got an actual math teacher on the team. When we're costing Techniques, we're able to fine-tune both the difficulties to acquire and the cost to use it based on a very accurate prediction of its power in regards to other Techniques.

4) I developed a tactical understanding of my game. My design work on this has been deeply influenced by Magic: The Gathering and other mathematically rigorous competitive games. There are a lot of "chokepoints" in the design and costing of powers that places certain strategies later in battles and some earlier, for instance. Having a thorough tactical vision for your game and creating a system which conforms to that plan is essential to making a satisfyingly tactical system (of any variety)

5) I make powers do more than punch. The Techniques double as an advancement paradigm and as skill boosters. Remember earlier how much I designed those skills? Broadening the punch-powers to dip into that rich design-soil expands and deepens the strategic use of powers, even outside of combat. The full measure of a given Technique's utility is therefore broadened beyond uselessness; there aren't any "trap" Techniques that are simply worse than all others.

6) I don't make many fighting moves. The less you make, the less you have to worry about. Despite this being a game about magical kung-fu, there's only a fraction of the powers you see in comparable games like Exalted. This is intentional; I've made the moves do a lot so that you don't need many of them to unlock some really cool powers. This tight design pays a lot of dividends in playtesting, but in the final game; getting a new move is an event, not just a speed bump.

7) I lean heavily on the tactical infinity. You'll note me going back to "this imagined world has its own integrity" a lot. There are things you can do with kung-fu powers that I can't possibly account for by design: this is so that they can be used to enable tactics that I can't account or design for. This allows me to a do a lot of stuff like link Techniques and styles with elements so that a given style is stronger or weaker in a different environment.

One of the ways I've successfully avoided the dreaded "white room combat" situations is by making certain that they basically can't occur; without the ability to compare powers in a vacuum, their relative worth is much muddier and therefore more difficult to totally master.

...

So that's some hard-won design advice for all of you aspiring kung-fu RPG writers out there. Also; don't ever do this. It's so much harder than it has any right to be dear god.
Joel T. Clark: Proprietor of the Mushroom Press, Member of the Five Emperors
Buy Lone Wolf Fists! https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416442/Tian-Shang-Lone-Wolf-Fists