Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 05:35:17 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that

I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.

No.  Answer my question.  Then figure out why you're part of the problem.

For this whole thread you made failed analogies, didn't answer to my questions about them (and much else), mistook science for personal approach to a form of expressive art, misrepresented the role of science in society, failed to answer why some rules are routinely accepted but others - if anything even more sane - caused trouble, accused me to not talk about RPGs when I devoted whole paragraphs to them explaining how you can't apply to make-believe the same form of reasoning you apply to a pandemic (and a flawed form of reasoning in a first place, IMHO), I pointed out how such reasoning led to, basically, a humanitarian catastrophe - something that thankfully will never be the result of people playing RPGs the way they want... and I am part of... some problem? Get a grip.

I have a far more solid grip than you do, based on that delusional screed.  Now, how would you respond to the SJW demand as presented in my previous post?  Your opinion is politics, but mine is reality?  That's all you have...

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 08:29:10 AM
Exactly. And with American strongly underlined.

Quote from: TJS on February 25, 2021, 04:49:13 PM
I quit Enworld recently. 
Most of the userbase there are really just fans - they're not there to create or to fix or have productive discussions which lead to better gaming or anything like that, but just to argue in a fannish way. 

...this... seems to be an interesting new trend I have not seen before. In the early days our arguments evolved around fixing the game, or creating a better game. Then we got into the TSR era, and the arguments were about which edition of the game was better 0D&D or 1eAD&D, or 2e AD&D and that argument was quickly solved by the marketing department at TSR, which pushed each new edition with everything they had, burying the early editions in waves of undeserved hostility, rancor, and cynicism.

3e was actually a renaissance, a temporary improvement on all of this, and an era where the players were encouraged to participate, and create anew again, defining and redefining the game to suit them. 4e was an unmitigated disaster, the first stirrings of that new school enforced political correctness and of wokeness from Wotc, where they tried to force "The One True Way (tm)" of playing on everyone who had ever played D&D and roleplaying games.

5e seems to be 3e on rails, with a very tightly bound IP, that only reinforces the dominance of Wotc (and Hasbro), at the expense of creativity and innovation for D&D (But not roleplaying in general), as everyone has now figured out they can create and play what they want. The consumer masses though seem fixated on arguing about modern issues in society most are which are purely speculative, or created solely at the alter of a group that perceives itself as persecuted, which to me, seems to be arguments that are a complete waste of time, because they will never actually fix any problems with the game, and is also very unlikely to solve the cultural problems that the woke players are continually engaged with.

Also an Interesting side note on this, the latter cultural problems might actually be solved if the players, actually... you know... roleplay... and take on the aspects of their ideological foes, in an attempt to better understand why each side holds the belief that they do, but this is (and always has) been blocked by that small sjw clique that secretly wants to control all of the narratives and agendas related to roleplaying in general.           

Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 05:35:17 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that

I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.

No.  Answer my question.  Then figure out why you're part of the problem.

For this whole thread you made failed analogies, didn't answer to my questions about them (and much else), mistook science for personal approach to a form of expressive art, misrepresented the role of science in society, failed to answer why some rules are routinely accepted but others - if anything even more sane - caused trouble, accused me to not talk about RPGs when I devoted whole paragraphs to them explaining how you can't apply to make-believe the same form of reasoning you apply to a pandemic (and a flawed form of reasoning in a first place, IMHO), I pointed out how such reasoning led to, basically, a humanitarian catastrophe - something that thankfully will never be the result of people playing RPGs the way they want... and I am part of... some problem? Get a grip.

I'm going to try to explain this to you one final time.

First off, I do "science" every day, for a living.  And the near-religious reverence you seem to have for the slanted pronouncements by politicians in the name of science shows you know nothing about the subject.  Science is a process, not a product.  In science, you can do everything right 100 times, and still get the "wrong" answer, for many reasons.  Sometimes because you are asking the wrong question, or the right question in the wrong way.  Sometimes because something you've never considered is confounding the issue.  And sometimes because people's biases affect the results (unintentionally, and intentionally).  I'd bet money I've read more peer-reviewed science articles in my professional capacity than you can name journals, and 75+% of them get contradicted within 6 months.  Science is not the Bible.  Scientists are not priests.  They have no "special" knowledge that ordinary people do not, except that gained through years of study or experience.  But they are wrong more than they are right, and they are people.  So appeals to science are nothing but masked appeals to authority.

Which takes us to the heart of the argument.  When you declare certain ideas to be objectively true, due to your (limited) understanding and your faith in "science," you also implicitly allow others to assert the same.  So whoever has the "best" authority wins.  And in this day and age, all of those authorities that are quoted by the media are both woke, and willing to lie to get what they want.

I, on the other hand, don't believe that I should have the power to force you to live according to the pronouncements of my "authorities," be they religious or political.  But that is what you advocate (you started off talking about your politicians and Navy, both of whom exist to FORCE others to do what is demanded!).  The reality is that NOTHING is settled beyond dispute.  Even if you could prove the Earth was warming (which depends on a LOT of assumptions.  For example, what is the proper temperature to measure?  The highest during the day?  The lowest?  The average?  A weighted average of all of the temps in 24 hours?  Even if we could measure these things, look into it and you'd be surprised how little temperature data is actually available, even to scientists who study it... I had a friend at UVA that did it for a living), the decision as to what to do is political.  And you have joined the side of those who believe that their "science" gets to tell you what to do to "fix" the problem.  I believe that we all need to decide what trade-offs we are willing to live with.

The SJWs in this hobby will beat you over the head with their "experts" on gender, or racism, or the social impact of media.  They assert that, because their experts have said your role-playing game is the cause of transpeople killing themselves, you need to change.  And what leg do you have to stand on?  You've already agreed that "science" gets to command all of us.  You can be a slavish follower of those that know "better" (though that hasn't worked out too well for you guys in the last 100 years, has it?).  But you are now giving the power to anyone with a louder "expert" to force everyone to obey.  And that's just stupid...

Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?

I disagree.  It is predicated on a mindset that is directly responsible for the infiltration of our hobby.  And it needs to be pushed back on.  Not pushing back on the intellectual foundations of wokism is how they got this far in the first place.  And I'm tired of my hobby being held hostage to whomever has the loudest megaphone.  I just want to play games...

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 10:58:21 AM
You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?

How a government acts is political, no doubt about that. What matters is the basis on which these acts are founded. Some of them are objective, as understood by science and experience. And are these fundaments that should never be politicised.

Okay....

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
Then, all of sudden (*), a pandemic arrives, and measures considered the absolute basics since how germs work was understood, like masks and social distancing (and one could argue how quarantine and social distancing were enforced even before) become "politicised". That getting sick can make you infect others - and thus become a vector and a danger to third parts not unlikely DUIing - was somehow lost in the shuffle (with the results we saw, like, in the USA). Why? Mostly because the Coronavirus can't care less about your "You will not take away my freedom!" slogans (the same being true for any kind of pathogens BTW).

.... and then you politicize science.

How many studies showed the effectiveness of masks to help prevent community spread, prior to the pandemic?
What was the WHO's guidance on lockdowns, in 2019?

Answer key: 0 and "never justified".

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
(*) A pandemic, BTW, which wasn't unexpected at all. Even I wrote, in a comic book, published in 1996, that we could expect it in a matter of decades - and why (someone remembered this feat of mine and published an article about it - it is in Italian but you can use Google translate: http://www.lucidamente.com/45604-perche-il-coronavirus-e-perche-in-futuro-ce-ne-saranno-altri/)

"Cassandras!" were called on this very forum those who expressed concern, back in early 2020, about the news coming from China, and then Italy and other countries. Which was the correct label. Cassandra, as the myth tells us, was always right. It was those she spoke to who were cursed not to believe her - only to sink shortly thereafter.

You're comparing yourself to the most famous oracle in history because you predicted something that's been a staple of fiction and emergency planning for more than a century?

And you'd probably be surprised if you went back and read my posts at the start of the pandemic.

Edit: The Greek reference reminds me of an interesting book, Constructing Cassandra by Milo Jones and Philippe Silberzahn. It's about the CIA, and how they failed so spectacularly to predict, well, almost everything. (E.g. claiming Russia is about to overtake the US economically -- in the 1980s.) And the reason for that disastrous series of failures is precisely because they see everything through a political lens.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 06:57:59 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?

I disagree.  It is predicated on a mindset that is directly responsible for the infiltration of our hobby.  And it needs to be pushed back on.  Not pushing back on the intellectual foundations of wokism is how they got this far in the first place.  And I'm tired of my hobby being held hostage to whomever has the loudest megaphone.  I just want to play games...

Greetings!

Eirikrautha, as much as I sympathize with Brad's sentiments--and he definitely fights against the SJW's and the woke morons--you make a very strong statement here that I must eagerly applaud. You are exactly right, and your righteous conviction in standing against the intellectual foundations of the SJW's which slime their way into every conversation and aspect of society must always be vigorously resisted and called out.

Keep up the fight, Eirikrautha!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 07:20:27 PM
How many studies showed the effectiveness of masks to help prevent community spread, prior to the pandemic?
What was the WHO's guidance on lockdowns, in 2019?

Well, WHO completely failed to isolate the early outbreak and prevent the spread of Covids, so whatever they actually did, or could do to mitigate the disaster, was completely irrelevant, including whatever they recommended for lockdowns and quarantine which was not properly implemented. That's on WHO and the Doctors in charge of quarantine protocols by the way.

The CDC has stated for years a masked or biological hazards protocol is ineffective and won't work. They removed that statement from their website though, after the start of the pandemic last year, at the direction of U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, which was, incidentally the organization that was responsible for bringing Covids to the human population. HHS secretly employed the Chinese in the Wuhan Virology Lab, and CDC mooks, by issuing a 7.4 Million dollar federal contract for them to research new and interesting ways to transmit Covids (which was a bat disease) to humans. They did this in direct contravention to a standing American Executive order specifically prohibiting such research as it could be considered bio-weapons research which has been outlawed by the U.S. and other foreign major powers with an international treaty. That rat Fauci... knew and approved of this research, only some retarded fucker who handles bats at the CDC lab (Just two city blcoks from the Wuhan Seafood Market, btw, where the original outbreak occurred) fucked up and got bit by an infected bat or mishandled a bat that had been infected with a new strain of Covids created in the Wuhan Virology Lab, and then gave it to all his Chinese market friends when shopping for fresh fish. Patient Zero, as far as I know, was a fish delivery driver, from the Wuhan Seafood Market, but he really caught the virus from somewhere else, and the only two places in town you could find bat Covids, was the CDC lab located a street over from the fish market, or the Wuhan Virology Lab located about three miles away, across the yellow river.


I'll keep this simple though for those that might be a tad slow in reading comprehension here... About half the population has an IQ of 100 or more, being the smarter half of the rest of the population. These folks, we can reasonably expect to use masks correctly, and follow quarantine protocols. If everyone did so for about three weeks. This virus would simply vanish, and we would very likely never see it again (unless of course, it was re-introduced by Fauci along with his weaseley friends at HHS).

Then of course there is that population with an IQ of less than 100 who simply refuses to wear any masks at all, or ineffectively wears masks (illustrations included here for reference)





Walmart Man








We might actually be able to isolate the virus by taking these dorks out and shooting them in the head. However they are about half the population, and include cops, military troops, and about 1/3 of the Senate and Congress, along with an extraordinary number of Republicans so this is actually not a practical solution. If we just let the virus run its course, then the vulnerable die and all the naturally immune continue on with life, which is all good, unless one of the infected and dying happens to be your mom, dad, favorite uncle, girlfriend, or husband, or whatever.

It's really all on the Doctors though. They created the ethics and systems that allowed this nasty virus to be created. and they should fix the horrific problem they created. Not so easy when Pandora gets out of the box though.



       

(Edited out some covid, because it doesn't belong on this board.)

Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?

I walk away for a few hours and this happens...

ahem...

But yeah thats a few pages wasted.

Back on topic, such as it is.

Once a fora becomes infested with these cultists, either openly or covertly, theres usually little you can do to stop the disease spreading. You might slow it down. But eventually they will allmost certainly gain enough control to start ousting those they dissapprove. Or making the place so hostile to free thinking that anyone sane bails.

That is assuming the rot was not there from the start and just acts as a locus to attract more.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 06:55:49 PM
First off, I do "science" every day, for a living.  And the near-religious reverence you seem to have for the slanted pronouncements by politicians in the name of science shows you know nothing about the subject.  Science is a process, not a product.  In science, you can do everything right 100 times, and still get the "wrong" answer, for many reasons.  Sometimes because you are asking the wrong question, or the right question in the wrong way.  Sometimes because something you've never considered is confounding the issue.  And sometimes because people's biases affect the results (unintentionally, and intentionally).  I'd bet money I've read more peer-reviewed science articles in my professional capacity than you can name journals, and 75+% of them get contradicted within 6 months.  Science is not the Bible.  Scientists are not priests.  They have no "special" knowledge that ordinary people do not, except that gained through years of study or experience.  But they are wrong more than they are right, and they are people.  So appeals to science are nothing but masked appeals to authority.

Which takes us to the heart of the argument.  When you declare certain ideas to be objectively true, due to your (limited) understanding and your faith in "science," you also implicitly allow others to assert the same.  So whoever has the "best" authority wins.  And in this day and age, all of those authorities that are quoted by the media are both woke, and willing to lie to get what they want.

I, on the other hand, don't believe that I should have the power to force you to live according to the pronouncements of my "authorities," be they religious or political.  But that is what you advocate (you started off talking about your politicians and Navy, both of whom exist to FORCE others to do what is demanded!).  The reality is that NOTHING is settled beyond dispute.  Even if you could prove the Earth was warming (which depends on a LOT of assumptions.  For example, what is the proper temperature to measure?  The highest during the day?  The lowest?  The average?  A weighted average of all of the temps in 24 hours?  Even if we could measure these things, look into it and you'd be surprised how little temperature data is actually available, even to scientists who study it... I had a friend at UVA that did it for a living), the decision as to what to do is political.  And you have joined the side of those who believe that their "science" gets to tell you what to do to "fix" the problem.  I believe that we all need to decide what trade-offs we are willing to live with.

That was really well said, in fact I'm saving that to paraphrase the next time I have to discuss these issues with some fool who has religious faith in science but no actual clue as to what it is.

But tell me more about this new and unimproved ENWorld? 

Well, I put up a poll about D&D artists over there and so far Elmore, Otus and Easley are winning, so it can't be all bad, right?

Quote from: BronzeDragon on March 01, 2021, 03:17:18 AM
Well, I put up a poll about D&D artists over there and so far Elmore, Otus and Easley are winning, so it can't be all bad, right?

death to the anime art style; of all the things that do not belong in this hobby that art style plucks my chicken w/o lubrication.