Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 10:41:43 AM

Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact.  Quite common now to see  "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.

What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well, scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.

Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.

Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see.

You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?

Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 10:58:21 AM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 10:41:43 AM

Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact.  Quite common now to see  "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.

What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well, scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.

Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.

Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see.

You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?

This dude is the textbook example of the culturalization of politics.  Politics used to be a philosophy of actions that were not culturally exclusive.  What I mean is that, to take American politics as an example, two different people might agree on the need to X (where X was "reduce homelessness," or "prevent crime") but disagree on the method to accomplish X ("higher minimum wage vs. long prison sentences" vis a vie crime, etc.).  Culturally, they agree on the ends, just not the means.  Now, modern politics has become a cultural association.  Wokism is just one example.  You must adhere to all of the tenets of your "politics," even when they are sometimes self-contradictory, or you are alienated.  Politics is now a belief system, not a means to an end.

To bring this back more on topic, you can see this on various RPG forums (with ENWorld and RPG.net being just the most obvious).  You don't just have to agree with them on orcs being coded as black people; you need to also agree with them on things that have no bearing on RPGs (like BLM or trans stuff), because they have declared that everything is political (hence political has become cultural).  Sadly, despite the fact that Americans are far crazier in the extremes, Western Europeans have seemed to accept this culturalization more readily, as evinced by this dude proudly spouting off a litany of political garbage as if it's just "the way things are."  That's the culturalization attacking our hobby.

quote author=Pat link=topic=43291.msg1164696#msg1164696 date=1614527901]

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 10:41:43 AM

Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact.  Quite common now to see  "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.

What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well, scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.

Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.

Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see.

You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?
[/quote]

How a government acts is political, no doubt about that. What matters is the basis on which these acts are founded. Some of them are objective, as understood by science and experience. And are these fundaments that should never be politicised.

DUIing is against the law basically everywhere. If you DUI you are a danger for you and the others - as proved both by science and practical experience. An argument like "if you are not allowing me to DUI you are curtailing my freedoms!" won't hold. Stating that

Quote
DUIing is dangerous is a litany of political garbage as if it's just "the way things are."

...will send you and your car around a tree. This is an omni-partisan position. Are you seriously wondering why?

Helmets, special vestments and other forms of body protection are mandatory in many kinds of jobs. You can't actually even visit certain areas without wearing them. Do we hear people whining about their "freedom" because they have to wear a helmet in a construction site? I don't.

Then, all of sudden (*), a pandemic arrives, and measures considered the absolute basics since how germs work was understood, like masks and social distancing (and one could argue how quarantine and social distancing were enforced even before) become "politicised". That getting sick can make you infect others - and thus become a vector and a danger to third parts not unlikely DUIing - was somehow lost in the shuffle (with the results we saw, like, in the USA). Why? Mostly because the Coronavirus can't care less about your "You will not take away my freedom!" slogans (the same being true for any kind of pathogens BTW).

And it is not even the first time that this happens. In the early '80s the AIDS pandemic was politicised. It was, possibly, the hottest rod in the political spectrum. AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse when such an idea was (politically, of course) almost an heresy (contact tracing had proven it beyond doubt). We will never know what would have happened if the AIDS pandemic had been tackled by science and science alone back in 1980. We know for sure what nightmare it become.

And now we have climate change. In a number of countries it is the new political pinball...

MEANWHILE

Russia, America and China, in the real world, are sending their naval forces in the Arctic to see "if the new territories freed by the retreating Arctic ice can be somehow developed/exploited - hoooray!" This is happening right now, while the various navies are letting the "politically active" to pollute Twitter. It is not even a secret: just google "USA Russia Arctic". Now, tell me: how many times you saw this was mentioned - at the very least - in a debate about climate change?

So, when I say that my country considers climate change as a given, I do feel also the need to provide some facts. The creation of an improved ministry was approved by the whole political spectrum. The Italian Navy is putting men and money where the mouth is and conducting research in the Arctic. The results are of public domain. The debate, here, is not about "if", but about "how serious is this danger" and "what we can do".

I also feel the need, for the sake of honesty, to point out the existence in Italy of fringe (and, in our case, alt-Right) movements who disagree. I'm always glad to hear from everybody, only to find them loud, childish and inconsequential - being unable to go beyond random insults against Greta Thunberg (and showing, in the process, their inability to criticise what she says).

(*) A pandemic, BTW, which wasn't unexpected at all. Even I wrote, in a comic book, published in 1996, that we could expect it in a matter of decades - and why (someone remembered this feat of mine and published an article about it - it is in Italian but you can use Google translate: http://www.lucidamente.com/45604-perche-il-coronavirus-e-perche-in-futuro-ce-ne-saranno-altri/)

"Cassandras!" were called on this very forum those who expressed concern, back in early 2020, about the news coming from China, and then Italy and other countries. Which was the correct label. Cassandra, as the myth tells us, was always right. It was those she spoke to who were cursed not to believe her - only to sink shortly thereafter.

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM

Russia, America and China, in the real world, are sending their naval forces in the Arctic to see "if the new territories freed by the retreating Arctic ice can be somehow developed/exploited - hoooray!" This is happening right now, while the various navies are letting the "politically active" to pollute Twitter. It is not even a secret: just google "USA Russia Arctic". Now, tell me: how many times you saw this was mentioned - at the very least - in a debate about climate change?

So, when I say that my country considers climate change as a given, I do feel also the need to provide some facts. The creation of an improved ministry was approved by the whole political spectrum. The Italian Navy is putting men and money where the mouth is and conducting research in the Arctic. The results are of public domain. The debate, here, is not about "if", but about "how serious is this danger" and "what we can do".

I also feel the need, for the sake of honesty, to point out the existence in Italy of fringe (and, in our case, alt-Right) movements who disagree. I'm always glad to hear from everybody, only to find them loud, childish and inconsequential - being unable to go beyond random insults against Greta Thunberg (and showing, in the process, their inability to criticise what she says).

(*) A pandemic, BTW, which wasn't unexpected at all. Even I wrote, in a comic book, published in 1996, that we could expect it in a matter of decades - and why (someone remembered this feat of mine and published an article about it - it is in Italian but you can use Google translate: http://www.lucidamente.com/45604-perche-il-coronavirus-e-perche-in-futuro-ce-ne-saranno-altri/)

"Cassandras!" were called on this very forum those who expressed concern, back in early 2020, about the news coming from China, and then Italy and other countries. Which was the correct label. Cassandra, as the myth tells us, was always right. It was those she spoke to who were cursed not to believe her - only to sink shortly thereafter.

Everything you have said above shows your blindness.  Nothing you stated was "objective" in the least.  The proper balance between freedom and safety is an inherently subjective decision, upon which intelligent individuals can disagree.  All Covid has done is highlight that one party in this argument wishes to use the veneer of science to force their balance on everyone else.  A knowledgeable person could agree that he virus is dangerous, but still disagree with all of the measure imposed by government, because they believe personal freedom and the society it creates is more important than the transient safety that destroys that principle.  This is the definition of politics, not science, not culture.  And the attempt to short-circuit this discussion puts you firmly on a side you might not wish to be on, were you able to look at this "objectively."

Once again, to return to RPGs, this same attempt to squelch discussion, to prevent others from deciding what is important at their table, be it verisimilitude, rules consistency, narrative, or whatever, is the hallmark of the "woke."  They wish to define any opinion that you have that does not conform to their politics aas not just different, but wrong, evil reprehensible, even criminal.  Dissent will not be tolerated.  Opposition will not be tolerated.  Why don't you comment on that (this is an RPG forum, right?), on how they are using the exact same logic as you are, that their "objective" determination of what is important, that some hypothetical hurt feelings are more important than your enjoyment?  How do you justify opposing them (if you do), yet still proclaiming that the debate is not "if, but what to do"?  That is their mantra...

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse

Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare). But for POLITICAL reasons it was pretended that AIDS transmission through vaginal intercourse was a significant threat.

You're wrong about lots of other stuff too.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 02:00:36 PM
Everything you have said above shows your blindness.  Nothing you stated was "objective" in the least.

No? How pathogens spread and what are the basic measures to protect yourself and others is "subjective"? How so?

Quote
The proper balance between freedom and safety is an inherently subjective decision, upon which intelligent individuals can disagree.  All Covid has done is highlight that one party in this argument wishes to use the veneer of science to force their balance on everyone else.

But this doesn't happen with DUIing? The obligation of wearing a helmet in a construction site is still considered basic safety? What is the difference between these two examples and the basic measures to slow a pandemic?

Would you agree for a scientist to be allowed to bring samples of deadly viruses outside a Biosafety Level 4 lab by keeping them in vials in his pockets? Would you be against laws that prevent this?

Discuss.

QuoteA knowledgeable person could agree that he virus is dangerous, but still disagree with all of the measure imposed by government, because they believe personal freedom and the society it creates is more important than the transient safety that destroys that principle.

Except that the society, like the individual, has a more impellent need: to survive. Both the individual and the society must be alive if they want to be free. But there is more: if you choose "freedom" in a pandemic, you choose for others too. You can very well be infected but asymptomatic. You can transmit the (potentially deadly) virus to people with different beliefs than yours. Are those beliefs to be ignored? You do seem to refuse such a concept. And yet this is the crisis factor: the nature of this specific danger is such that, to survive it, the society must act as a whole. And it must act according to basic, scientific, objective realities.

(True, you can ignore the above - and get 25% of the overall Covid deaths with only 4% of the World population. Here is your personal freedom and the society it creates for you).

What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.

Quote
Once again, to return to RPGs, this same attempt to squelch discussion, to prevent others from deciding what is important at their table

No, and here is the bait-and-switch that derails the discussion. RPGs are an art form. There are no scientific truths to which we all must abide. You can convince me that something different is actually good. You can show me different ways and different approaches to my hobby. Here I have the freedom to decide - because, and this is the key point, if I do decide to be "woke" I cannot infect you with this virus. We can debate what is good and what is not in RPGs (and other arts, like movies - where the current wisdom is "Get woke, go broke") for months, but at the end what matters is how a certain group decides to have fun. RPGs, in a way, are like sex: what really matters is the pleasure of those involved - end of the story.

You think that I'm "woke"? Check my post history here. Still, if my neighbour has a woke group and we see that they are having fun - well, good for them.

My neighbour got Covid because "no masks! down with social distancing!" and all of sudden both I and my family are at risk? Well...

Can you see the difference?

So, please, don't come to me again with bullshit like "Fearing a virus for scientific reasons means understanding that now you are responsible not only for yourself but for others = forcing wokeism on others!" This site has seen better.

Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse

Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare).

Yup, because "eterosexual intercourse" = "vaginal intercourse" 🙄

Quote
You're wrong about lots of other stuff too.

Like overestimate basic reading comprehension? 

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:11:49 PM

What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.

That fact that you don't understand that every single airline carefully balances the amount of maintenance and training they do between the safety it will provide and the cost and time (there is all kinds of optional maintenance that is done late, partially, or not at all, depending on the airline and circumstance) shows why you are clueless about this topic that you consider "obvious."  Nothing in life is black-and-white.  Everything is a trade-off.  You just don't want to allow anyone else to determine the trade-off they want.

And I don't think you are woke.  I think you are worse.  You nominally disagree with "wokism" while confirming and approving of the intellectual basis for every one of their arguments.  With friends like that, who needs enemies?

I see that you failed to even try to tackle some of the questions I made. OK.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 03:31:33 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:11:49 PM

What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.

That fact that you don't understand that every single airline carefully balances the amount of maintenance and training they do between the safety it will provide and the cost and time (there is all kinds of optional maintenance that is done late, partially, or not at all, depending on the airline and circumstance) shows why you are clueless about this topic that you consider "obvious."  Nothing in life is black-and-white.  Everything is a trade-off.  You just don't want to allow anyone else to determine the trade-off they want.

An airline has the duty to keep its planes in the air, and a pilot must be trained to react to any sort of emergency like if it is second-nature. How they do that is their problem - but there can be no compromise on this, or you will be out of the game fast.

Quote
And I don't think you are woke.  I think you are worse.  You nominally disagree with "wokism" while confirming and approving of the intellectual basis for every one of their arguments.  With friends like that, who needs enemies?

I like to think that I'm the guy who sleeps better if there are laws against bringing deadly viruses out of Level 4 labs while also being the guy who laughed hard watching "Stick and Stones" by David Chappelle. But let's say that you decided to close your argument with a list of things noteworthy only for having a single thing in common (i.e. "not even one of them is even close") and let's end it here.

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:19:50 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse

Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare).

Yup, because "eterosexual intercourse" = "vaginal intercourse" 🙄

Well I was assuming you were making a non-trivial claim, as opposed to "AIDS doesn't care about the gender of the person you're sodomising - they can still catch AIDS off you." Was that actually disputed in your country? Here in the UK the govt propaganda made great efforts to persuade the heterosexual public they were just as much at risk from sex-without-condom as male homosexuals.

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:46:03 PM
I see that you failed to even try to tackle some of the questions I made. OK.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 03:31:33 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:11:49 PM

What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.

That fact that you don't understand that every single airline carefully balances the amount of maintenance and training they do between the safety it will provide and the cost and time (there is all kinds of optional maintenance that is done late, partially, or not at all, depending on the airline and circumstance) shows why you are clueless about this topic that you consider "obvious."  Nothing in life is black-and-white.  Everything is a trade-off.  You just don't want to allow anyone else to determine the trade-off they want.

An airline has the duty to keep its planes in the air, and a pilot must be trained to react to any sort of emergency like if it is second-nature. How they do that is their problem - but there can be no compromise on this, or you will be out of the game fast.

Quote
And I don't think you are woke.  I think you are worse.  You nominally disagree with "wokism" while confirming and approving of the intellectual basis for every one of their arguments.  With friends like that, who needs enemies?

I like to think that I'm the guy who sleeps better if there are laws against bringing deadly viruses out of Level 4 labs while also being the guy who laughed hard watching "Stick and Stones" by David Chappelle. But let's say that you decided to close your argument with a list of things noteworthy only for having a single thing in common (i.e. "not even one of them is even close") and let's end it here.

I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that (then why post here?).  The woke say, "You can either be welcoming to everyone, or you can be insulting/dangerous.  Not using preferred pronouns, X-cards, and codes of conduct, and using evil orcs, non-inclusive language and situations, not purposefully putting LGBTQ+ in every part of your adventure is unwelcoming.  It's a matter of common sense and objective reality.  There's no compromise on this."  How do you argue with that?  You've used the same logic above.

Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 03:48:45 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:19:50 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse

Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare).

Yup, because "eterosexual intercourse" = "vaginal intercourse" 🙄

Well I was assuming you were making a non-trivial claim, as opposed to "AIDS doesn't care about the gender of the person you're sodomising - they can still catch AIDS off you." Was that actually disputed in your country? Here in the UK the govt propaganda made great efforts to persuade the heterosexual public they were just as much at risk from sex-without-condom as male homosexuals.

My uncle was, at the time, the director of the Infectious Diseases Center at the Policlinico di Milano. I was still a kid but I was fascinated by his tales. Regarding AIDS he always grumbled against "the politicians in the US and the Vatican over here." From what I remember, when AIDS became a big thing here in Italy the Catholic Church made a big fuss about the idea of using condoms as a preventive measure. The result, for once, was a lot of pushback. At the end the government choose the simplest message "You can get AIDS by having unprotected sex. Condoms are your friend."

The problems with that pandemic, in the USA, initially came from two opposite sources. On one side, the Republican party, then very strong, wasn't inclined to "waste" money and resources to research the so-called "Gay Cancer". On the other side, the gay lobbies themselves feared that this "Gay Cancer" thinghie could give bad optics to the gay movement as a whole, after a series of important political achievements it had gotten in the late '70s. Scientists from agencies like the CDC and National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases (where a young Dr. Fauci was already toiling away!) were overworked and with a shoestring budget. After heterosexual transmission was finally confirmed, politics reared another ugly head, because anti-gay movements weren't happy that the "Gay Cancer" wasn't gay anymore; and so they pressured politicians to shot down even further any research in that direction. Ah, well...

My main source for all of this is "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts. Amazing book. Other good books about infectious diseases are "The Coming Plague" by Laurie Garret (I based on this my comic book script back in the '90s), and "The Great Influenza" by John M. Barry (about the Spanish Flu of 1919-20, but also how that pandemic basically kickstarted modern medical thought - one can only hope...)

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that

I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that

I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.

No.  Answer my question.  Then figure out why you're part of the problem.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that

I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.

No.  Answer my question.  Then figure out why you're part of the problem.

For this whole thread you made failed analogies, didn't answer to my questions about them (and much else), mistook science for personal approach to a form of expressive art, misrepresented the role of science in society, failed to answer why some rules are routinely accepted but others - if anything even more sane - caused trouble, accused me to not talk about RPGs when I devoted whole paragraphs to them explaining how you can't apply to make-believe the same form of reasoning you apply to a pandemic (and a flawed form of reasoning in a first place, IMHO), I pointed out how such reasoning led to, basically, a humanitarian catastrophe - something that thankfully will never be the result of people playing RPGs the way they want... and I am part of... some problem? Get a grip.