lol I was just reading a "character creation for beginners" thing here and it literally mentions Bruce Lee: http://imgur.com/gallery/Bhbem/new

As you can see it's the first thing everyone thinks of when they think of the Monk.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;858919We're not talking about modeling specifically, more like making a character LIKE in this case, Bruce Lee.  The issue is that the class that people assume should doesn't even bother coming close to give a passing nod.

Seriously, though. It's a character class that kills dragons with bare-handed strikes. How much more Bruce Lee does it have to get?

Quote from: The Butcher;858943Seriously, though. It's a character class that kills dragons with bare-handed strikes. How much more Bruce Lee does it have to get?

Well, some survivability would be nice.  Without having to rely on mobility, because it's the only class in the entire game that needs it, otherwise it gets mulched.

Unlike Bruce Lee who could stand toe to toe with foes bigger than he was.

Men, I've seen Monks do just fine in the game. Sure we were doing pre-made adventures but overall the player who used the monk said he felt like he was playing a Kung-Fu stylized warrior. Obviously YMMV.

Quote from: Batman;859051Men, I've seen Monks do just fine in the game. Sure we were doing pre-made adventures but overall the player who used the monk said he felt like he was playing a Kung-Fu stylized warrior. Obviously YMMV.

And every monk I've seen played has ended up dead, dead, dead.  Simply because the players had no idea how they were meant to be played.  As in, keep moving, or you will get mulched.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;859055And every monk I've seen played has ended up dead, dead, dead.  Simply because the players had no idea how they were meant to be played.  As in, keep moving, or you will get mulched.

Well, what if the DM just told them that's how to play it, is there a problem then.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;859055And every monk I've seen played has ended up dead, dead, dead.  Simply because the players had no idea how they were meant to be played.  As in, keep moving, or you will get mulched.

I'd say that a Monk is good with 1-on-1 and maybe 1-on-2 but any more and you're asking to take a dirt nap.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;859050Well, some survivability would be nice.  Without having to rely on mobility, because it's the only class in the entire game that needs it, otherwise it gets mulched.

Unlike Bruce Lee who could stand toe to toe with foes bigger than he was.

Let's hear a little from the man himself, huh?

Call me crazy, but I don't see Bruce Lee's style (or other martial arts style) as being particularly static - in fact, I'd say mobility is key to it. I don't see that it's a problem that a class is more useful in combat by staying mobile, any more than it's a problem for wizards to try to stay out of melee or a problem for fighters to make human shields of themselves. My 5E thief relies a lot on mobility and he does just fine in combat.

Quote from: Warthur;859076Let's hear a little from the man himself, huh?

Call me crazy, but I don't see Bruce Lee's style (or other martial arts style) as being particularly static - in fact, I'd say mobility is key to it. I don't see that it's a problem that a class is more useful in combat by staying mobile, any more than it's a problem for wizards to try to stay out of melee or a problem for fighters to make human shields of themselves. My 5E thief relies a lot on mobility and he does just fine in combat.

...

Look.  The issue with the Monk is that it's a high mobility class in a game system that punished mobility.  That's my issue.  And worse, the game doesn't tell players that it's a high mobility class either.  Expecting them to think that they can go toe to toe with multiple foes, like some other classes.

We still talking 5E? My thief is crazy-mobile and I don't think the system is punishing him for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;859126...

Look.  The issue with the Monk is that it's a high mobility class in a game system that punished mobility.  That's my issue.  And worse, the game doesn't tell players that it's a high mobility class either.  Expecting them to think that they can go toe to toe with multiple foes, like some other classes.

Interesting. I played a Monk during playtest, and it was pretty obvious that was his schtick. And Unarmored MV bonus is right there on the class progression chart. I think you may have a point in that it doesn't explicitly make a bigger deal of that facet (and perhaps it should). Seeing as how you can break up movement, it would **seem** that mobility would be quite useful. But I can't see where you can hit, then disengage (which, I guess would make the class OP?). What would you suggest be done to improve the Monk's use of Mobility as the class' main feature? (curious--as I like the class a great deal).

Quote from: Warthur;859135We still talking 5E? My thief is crazy-mobile and I don't think the system is punishing him for it.

Because at second level you get Cunning Action, which gives you a Bonus Action to Dash, Disengage or Hide.

The Monk doesn't doesn't get that, so unless they nail their target in one hit, they have to waste an action Disengaging, or take an opportunity attack to the face.  Which with their lower AC (and the odds of a campaign giving them a Bracer or Defense, is actually pretty low, if you roll for magic toys) means lot's of Ouchie, also due to their lower HD count.

So no, the game does not actually show that the Monk is a high mobility class, it's more of a positional killer, without the benefits.

Either way, it's just one class out of a, in my personal opinion, a complete class list.  Nothing needs to be added for me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;859153Because at second level you get Cunning Action, which gives you a Bonus Action to Dash, Disengage or Hide.

The Monk doesn't doesn't get that, so unless they nail their target in one hit, they have to waste an action Disengaging, or take an opportunity attack to the face.  Which with their lower AC (and the odds of a campaign giving them a Bracer or Defense, is actually pretty low, if you roll for magic toys) means lot's of Ouchie, also due to their lower HD count.

So no, the game does not actually show that the Monk is a high mobility class, it's more of a positional killer, without the benefits.

Either way, it's just one class out of a, in my personal opinion, a complete class list.  Nothing needs to be added for me.

How would you fix it? Since you are one of the people honing in on its flaws.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;859166How would you fix it? Since you are one of the people honing in on its flaws.

Assuming removing it is out of the question...

I'd give D10 HD to start.  Allow it wear light armour, but keep the Wisdom based Unarmoured Defense ability (like the Barbarian), and rereading the class I have to revise my statement.  They do have an ability to disengage for 'free' technically.  It's Step of The Wind, something I must apologize to players and everyone hear, it costs a Chi point, but it's the same thing as Cunning Action, save for the Hide ability.

I wonder why no one caught it at my games.  Then again, Flurry of Blows is the more obvious ability that people would want to use (rolling dice is cooler than saying, "I get out of reach." even if it turns out to be less useful.)

Still, I hold that it would need a D10 HP, allowed to wear light armour, at the very least.

Oh, and allow them to 'dual wield' their own fists/feet for free.

Some of the powers are also a bit...  Well, not as useful as I'd like, to keep it on par with a damage dealer, like a Rogue.  Will have to think on that.

But I would like to apologize for not seeing that it does have an inherent mobility ability, similar to the Rogue.  Sorry for missing that.

IIRC Monk's first Ki abilities (2nd lvl) are:
1) bonus act and 1 ki to Dodge.
2) bonus act and 1 ki to flurry of blows.
3) bonus act and 1 ki to Dash and double long jump +DEX.

Given that Martial Arts from lvl 1 already grants 1 unarmed strike after a monk weapon (or unarmed) strike that's already two strikes and a getaway option. Monk Weapon (1d6+DEX) plus Unarmed (1d4+DEX) plus bonus act and +1 ki for Dodge. That's really good.

From my experience I routinely rate Dodge better than Disengage because it lasts until the start of your next turn. Only problem is it is limited by the number of ki points. But I am ok with that as bonus act Dodge or Flurry is strong.

If you really want to make a low level Martial Arts monk sing in melee I would take the Mobility feat. That "first target you attempt to attack cannot OA you this turn" is solid. Hit doesn't even have to land, just attempt to hit.

That said, range and cover is often better until you get more levels and HP. DEX and WIS are favored, to add CON for HP bloat really strains point buy into MAD territory. Monks do more combat status effect shenanigans later on, which is great in a group, and they really do better in exploration.