I loved Larry Elmore stuff back in the day.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;731157I loved Larry Elmore stuff back in the day.

Me too, the Norwegian translations of the B and E books of BECMI were my D&D gateway way back when and the art definitely helped.

Quote from: The Butcher;731064Unless, as Old Geezer cogently suggests, there's a considerable contingent of people who see "high fantasy" as a string of "epic" set-piece fights between larger-than-life characters, tied together by thin strands of plot. Speaking strictly for myself, I don't see the genre this way.

There is, sadly,  there really is. Even I admittedly use epic to mean something more along the lines of Exalted than Odyssey when it comes to RPGs.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;731157I loved Larry Elmore stuff back in the day.

(And others.)

Sorry, we've had this conversation before, and I don't want to derail by arguing. I'll just say that

A) Yes, it gives a pretty poor impression of what level 1-3 D&D is like. There's no party, you're fighting a pretty big red dragon, you're not shitting your pants. Compare the Holmes or Moldvay boxes which are a little more reasonable.

B) I'm not just making up my reaction to to the LE and DL art over false nostalgia. I was in my teens by the time that stuff came out and it struck me as very plastic-heroic and cartoony. Granted, I also thought that Otus was creepy and "not realistic." In hindsight I still feel the same way about LE but I think I was a philistine WRT Otus. (I also had trouble with Edward Gorey and Gahan Wilson.) I'd guess that Trampier's "realistic" stuff was closest to Arminius-approved RPG-fantasy bitd; I liked the look of Wormy but I didn't make a connection to the PHB cover or Emirikol.

[EDIT: what I mean is that Wormy is "cute" and stylish, but Trampier's other work is what I thought an adventure should look like.]

IME the "string of set piece battles" = epic storytelling is yet another symptom of the increasing focus on off-table activities in RPGfandom.

Some people really love particular "systems" because they can spend hours 'building' characters away from the table. The way the system plays at the table is almost of lesser importance.

Some people like to write huge backgrounds for their characters and call their characters "deep", "nuanced" and "interesting" even if they don't do anything remotely noteworthy at the table. The decisions made at the table are of lesser importance.

Likewise some folks like to write/think/talk about their "epic story" away from the table even if the game at the table is just a series of set piece combats. The activity at the table isn't important.

Quote from: Piestrio;731221Some people like to write huge backgrounds for their characters and call their characters "deep", "nuanced" and "interesting" even if they don't do anything remotely noteworthy at the table. The decisions made at the table are of lesser importance.

Preach it, brother.

I think it's more the fight-of-the-week rhythm from TV shows, especially cartoons. Each episode is dramatic buildup, then set-piece battle, then invocation of special powers (Voltron's sword, Sailor Moon's staff, etc.). A story line can be built around this but the overall structure is pretty robust against missing an episode or two, because every week you get the same mix of elements.

Quote from: Arminius;731232I think it's more the fight-of-the-week rhythm from TV shows, especially cartoons. Each episode is dramatic buildup, then set-piece battle, then invocation of special powers (Voltron's sword, Sailor Moon's staff, etc.). A story line can be built around this but the overall structure is pretty robust against missing an episode or two, because every week you get the same mix of elements.

It works great if you're playing 4-color Silver Age Comics Code-approved supers.

Funny thing is that I think they did some sophisticated stuff under the CC. I didn't read a whole lot of comics but I remember issues from about 1970 of Batman, Hulk, Spider-Man, Werewolf By Night, Son of Satan, and Superman (not sure those were the exact titles, sometimes a character was in multiple titles) that seemed to be episodes of fairly complex extended narratives. Usually they did have a regular dose of a good fight but it didn't necessarily dominate the issue.

I like how people here are talking about liking a different game as though it is some kind of moral/intellectual indictment.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;731241I like how people here are talking about liking a different game as though it is some kind of moral/intellectual indictment.

For example?

Quote from: Piestrio;731251For example?

That would require "context."

"They misunderstand real fantasy epics"

"The activity at the table isn't important [to them]"

I swear its like no one could possibly like the way a game plays at the table without being wrong about something.

The thing is, Edition Warring is stupid, and trying to speculate what "flaws" cause people to want to play a game you may not like is insulting. I don't even play 4e. I've played it before, and its... its alright. I like it better than 3.x, but me not liking 3.x doesn't cause me to speculate about why people don't see all the things wrong I see with it. It doesn't matter. They have their fun, I have my fun, and there is no reason for me to spend time insulting them or their opinions.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;731265"They misunderstand real fantasy epics"

"The activity at the table isn't important [to them]"

I swear its like no one could possibly like the way a game plays at the table without being wrong about something.

Quick question...

How do you hammer in the last nail?

Well, I can't speak to "understanding fantasy epics."

But I've gamed with people for whom what happens at the table isn't important; they spend most of their "game" time apart individually doing what's sometimes called "blue-booking," and when they actually get together it's more like a meeting on the JLA satellite headquarters than an adventure; they spend most of their time telling each other what they've been doing and trading quips.

It's not to my taste, but they're having fun, and it is a thing that really exists and is apparently quite common in some circles.

Of course, some people eat green peppers, and I'd have to go without food for several days before I'd even try to choke one of the damn things down.