There's a whole lot of RPGs out there. I like to play them all. In fact, I'd go as far to say that if there's a game within our hobby, I'll play it. Same goes for the gaming industry in general. I'll play any CCG, minis game, board game, or whatever.
I also judge all my game sunder the rubric of how well they perform their stated function.
That said, I like a lot of Forge games, and Indie games, and all games!
In particular, I like Dogs in the Vineyard, My Life with Master*, InSpectres, Mortal Coil*, and The Shadow of Yesterday.
In fact, if anyone out there generally dislikes Forge/Indie RPGs for being different from regular RPGs or "not RPGs" you should check out Shadow of Yesterday...it's a solid awesome little RPG that actually looks, smells, and feels like an RPG.
Not so with everything else out of there...but c'mon folks lets show our love (and maybe a little vitriol and hate, because that's fun too) of Indie games!
* I have not actually played it, but it seems awesome.
No thanks. I like games based upon their own merits, not labels.
I have nothing against them. I'm all for giving anything the benefit of the doubt. There's no reason, in my mind, to assume any given game is good or not based on whether it's labeled indie or not.
The thing is, I will admit to not knowing a lot about indie games. If anyone can give a list of what are considered the top indie games, based on whatever criteria you think are worthwhile, with links to reviews or websites where they can be bought, I'll give 'em a look.
A lot of what the Forge community produces just isn't to my liking. I do, however, really like Lacuna and Burning Wheel. And there's a decent amount of indie games outside of the Forge community I enjoy.
Other "indie" games? How about Chad U's Truth & Justice? If we're talking indie games as in small-press/"creator owned and operated", then yeah, I love Flying Mice's In Harm's Way (which I seriously think just broke into my personal Top 5 RPGs of all time), and JAGS seems pretty cool, too. I'd also throw in Risus, while we're at it.
I have few illusions about it being a real RPG, but I think Dogs in the Vinyard would be fun, now all I have to do is buy it. Barring that I'd rather try my hand at Burning Empires. The more I think about it, it might be fun to have a more clearly competative game like that.
Most Forge-born games ain't my cuppa.
I have considered a few Wicked Dead products, but since they're a company, they no longer count as Indie/Forge, right?
I am consuming Burning Empire with interest.
What makes it an "Indie game" versus being just a "game"?
I've always taken it to mean that an "Indie game" is one developed "independently." I've always considered that it was "independent" of big name publishing houses, is that incorrect?
It sounds like if Tom, Dick and Harry develop a game in their basement and choose to create a company to publish and distribute it, then they are somehow not an "Indie game" because they were able to use the business acumen to create a company, arrange publishing and develop distribution?
Please explain this nuance I have somehow failed to grasp! :confused:
Quote from: gleichmanNo thanks. I like games based upon their own merits, not labels.
I used the label for ease. I listed the games I like in particular, do you have any thoughts about them?
Quote from: VellorianWhat makes it an "Indie game" versus being just a "game"?
I've always taken it to mean that an "Indie game" is one developed "independently." I've always considered that it was "independent" of big name publishing houses, is that incorrect?
It sounds like if Tom, Dick and Harry develop a game in their basement and choose to create a company to publish and distribute it, then they are somehow not an "Indie game" because they were able to use the business acumen to create a company, arrange publishing and develop distribution?
Please explain this nuance I have somehow failed to grasp! :confused:
I think the distinction is stupid, as pretty much any publisher in this industry would qualify as a teeny tiny business anywhere else. It's not like the executives of WoTC have multiple homes abroad, garages full of fancy cars, and "heir" or "heiress" children.
"Independant" versus "non-Indepedent" in regards to roleplaying is an exercise in "mental wakery" as the Pundit would put it. The authors of RPGs have a lot more say in the production of them than the writers of other manuals.
So, I would tell you to ignore the nuance, it's an arbitrary distinction. I'm sorry I used "Indie" in my original post, I just wanted to know what games people play that get very little love on these boards.
Quote from: VellorianI've always taken it to mean that an "Indie game" is one developed "independently." I've always considered that it was "independent" of big name publishing houses, is that incorrect?
I think this topic got kicked around here, and I think it's a bit more exclusive than that. Who's a "big name publishing house"? Top 5 sellers? Top 10?
There's a wiki article on the topic (here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_rpg)) and here's what it has to say:
Quote from: WikipediaThis community generally defines indie games as those where the creator maintains control of his or her work[1] and eschews the traditional publishing and sales model, though there are exceptions.
Though this is the "forge community" section and it talks about other definitions.
So, Tom, Dick and Harry make a game. They think it's cool. They write it up, get an artist to illustrate it, ask Harry's mom (the English teacher) to edit it, playtest the hell out of it, ask Tom's brother to lay it out with In Design, create a PDF and put up a blog that talks about it and how their gaming group is using it. They sell the PDF for $3.
Is that an "Indie game?"
Quote from: VellorianWhat makes it an "Indie game" versus being just a "game"?
I've always taken it to mean that an "Indie game" is one developed "independently." I've always considered that it was "independent" of big name publishing houses, is that incorrect?
It sounds like if Tom, Dick and Harry develop a game in their basement and choose to create a company to publish and distribute it, then they are somehow not an "Indie game" because they were able to use the business acumen to create a company, arrange publishing and develop distribution?
Please explain this nuance I have somehow failed to grasp! :confused:
The Forge's definition of Indie is "creator Owned."
The Indie RPG Awards definition is a bit looser - "creator Controlled"
If the person who wrote the game owns/controlls the company, then it's "Indie."
I don't know the details of Wicked Dead's ownership, so I can't say whether that particular company is "Indie" at all. It may be that some of their products are "Indie" and some not.
In my own case, Better Mousetrap Games is a consortium. Each Imprint is operated separately. Flying Mice is an Imprint which is part of Better Mousetrap, as is
JimBobOz's Goshu Otaku,
Silverlion's Silverlion Studios, and
Marco's JAGS empire among others. We are fuzzy under the Forge definition, and Indie under the Indie RPG Awards definition, but prefer the "Small Press" designation as it's less ambiguous.
-mice
Quote from: VellorianSo, Tom, Dick and Harry make a game. They think it's cool. They write it up, get an artist to illustrate it, ask Harry's mom (the English teacher) to edit it, playtest the hell out of it, ask Tom's brother to lay it out with In Design, create a PDF and put up a blog that talks about it and how their gaming group is using it. They sell the PDF for $3.
Is that an "Indie game?"
Sounds like one to me.
-mice
My experience with DitV was okay at the time but the more I reflect on it the less I like the game. The last session in particular really put me off. That might have been due to the particular combination of participants, but that's the only consideration that's kept me from up and selling it.
I have MLwM and I think it could be a fun game. I also own Polaris, not on your list but clearly indie by any definition, and after a little bit of play I think it has potential with the right group--essentially, a group of people interested in using it as a tool to shape interactive storytelling. I suspect the game will fall apart instantly if people don't actively help each other out with continuity and "genre consistency", though.
The Shadow of Yesterday is something I'd like to try once I figure out the Bringing Down the Pain rules and a couple of other wrinkles which turn out to be much less clear than they do on first impression. I'm not crazy about the world background but the system itself seems very easy to customize to any adventure-type background. In fact it strikes me as a bit of a Burning-Wheel lite. Hmmm....take the BW Circles/Resources concepts and combine them with TSoY....
I also participated in a con game of The Shab al-Hiri Roach, which I found enjoyable for the most part but frustrating in the way it tried to combine competition with a sort of GM-less freeform ability to introduce elements at players' whim. I don't think those are compatible, and either a more rigid set of procedures, or a more "open" range of outcomes (both of which would make the game more like MLwM, I think) would probably improve the game for me.
Indie(forge) games are hit and miss like most other RPGs.
the biggest difference to me is that most Indie games have some cool mechanical stuff, but the setting or premis is just odd.
small press indie (creator owned/controlled). I like a lot, Flying Mice, Hinterwelt, PIG, and others
"Indie games" is a pretty meaningless term. Do you mean Forge games (if so, why does the Forge get the fucking right to define what's "indie" or not)? Do you mean games that have less thatn 5% of the market share (that would mean most of the so-called "industry"), or do you just mean "lesser known games"?
There's tons of good lesser-known games, or games with small print runs, or games from small companies. I don't understand the need to try to define them as "indie", when in reality just about anything that isn't made by Wizards of the Coast (and possibly White Wolf) is actually effectively "indie".
RPGPundit
I like Indie games in general. I do not like (many/most) "Forgie" games.
There are a few I think are solid and brilliant (plus some that get labelled Forge games that really aren't--developed elsewhere but talked about after the fact at the Forge.)
Quote from: RPGPunditThere's tons of good lesser-known games, or games with small print runs, or games from small companies. I don't understand the need to try to define them as "indie", when in reality just about anything that isn't made by Wizards of the Coast (and possibly White Wolf) is actually effectively "indie".
Well, look, you can say that being "indie" or not doesn't make a difference, and you could make a fair point -- but you should at least use the term the way other people do. Indie means creator-owned or at least creator-controlled, the same way that it does in music or movies.
For most of the mid-tier companies, the author doesn't control the final product. For example, N. Robin Crossby wrote HarnMaster, but Columbia Games controlled publication. He got fed up with what they were doing, and for a time came out with his own indie HarnMaster edition ("HarnMaster Gold"). It is fairly standard in most companies for the authors to not own the rights to be able to do that. To list some companies: Mongoose Publishing, Green Ronin, FanPro, Eden Studios, Alderac Entertainment, Steve Jackson Games, Atlas Games, Chaosium, and Columbia Games all follow this as far as I know.
I mostly play non-indie games, but I think like a number of indie games. I wouldn't say I generally like indie games in general since many of them are terrible, amateurish basement productions. But there are a number which I really like.
I've long nursed a desire actually to read a novel or two by the noted Tory liar, perjurer and ex-convict Jeffrey Archer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Archer,_Baron_Archer_of_Weston-super-Mare). This is so that if I dump on his writing I'm doing it from a position of knowledge. I must here confess the guilty secret that I have a similar interest in trying out one or two of the better known Forge games, eg. DiTV or Sorceror. I suspect that I'm more likely to attempt the latter than the former. That's when it comes to buying and reading the things at least. My players would have the last word on whether or not I'd get any further than that. ;)
Quote from: RPGPundit"Indie games" is a pretty meaningless term. Do you mean Forge games (if so, why does the Forge get the fucking right to define what's "indie" or not)? Do you mean games that have less thatn 5% of the market share (that would mean most of the so-called "industry"), or do you just mean "lesser known games"?
I can answer this call, it's a debate I've wanted to have for a good while. Why wouldn't I use the term "Indie?" Should I jsut use Forge-Game, or perhaps Story-Game (which is closer to the truth for some)? I think the reason I used the term "Indie" is explicit in the posts by the people who actually answered my question.
Quote from: RPGPunditThere's tons of good lesser-known games, or games with small print runs, or games from small companies. I don't understand the need to try to define them as "indie", when in reality just about anything that isn't made by Wizards of the Coast (and possibly White Wolf) is actually effectively "indie".
And that's true, but when I say "Indie" game, you know exactly what I mean. It's a stupid term, and you're absolutely right in thinking that it is...but it is the term for that kind of game. Can we change that? I don't know.
No matter the outcome of this thread, The Shadow of Yesterday kicks much more ass than amny other games out there.
I dont like rules that force players into a limited kind of sequence or story, so that makes me dislike a lot of the Forgy games. I like Faery's Tale a lot though.
But a lot of it has nothing to do with the games. When I see some guy acting like a dipshit online, and then I see like,... the same guy trying to promote his own game (or his friend's game or whatever), usually thats enough for me to boycott the game sight unseen.
Quote from: jhkimN. Robin Crossby wrote HarnMaster, but Columbia Games controlled publication. He got fed up with what they were doing, and for a time came out with his own indie HarnMaster edition ("HarnMaster Gold").
Has something changed, as implied by "for a time"? I just check Harnforum and Kelestia and there's nothing there about a resolution to the dispute between Crossby and Columbia.
Quote from: jhkimWell, look, you can say that being "indie" or not doesn't make a difference, and you could make a fair point -- but you should at least use the term the way other people do. Indie means creator-owned or at least creator-controlled, the same way that it does in music or movies.
Really, that's the consensus?
So RIFTS, GURPS, and Amber are all "Indie"?
And, how does one then answer "do you like indie games"? I mean, if all "indie" means is "creator-controlled", it doesn't really say ANYTHING about what the flavour of an Indie game is going to be like, does it?
I mean, what the fuck is the difference if I publish Forward... To Adventure! myself, or if I get some other company to publish it? Does it suddenly miraculously turn into a different style of game?
I mean, it seems to me that most of you try to claim that there's some kind of "indie attitude", but that definition of Indie pretty much means that "Indie" means fuck all. Its not even a measure of how financially successful a product will be, since someone who owns his own company and publishes his own game could be a runaway mainstream success. Its not a measure of anything except some kind of randomly-chosen demographic of ownership.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it seems to me that most of you try to claim that there's some kind of "indie attitude", but that definition of Indie pretty much means that "Indie" means fuck all. Its not even a measure of how financially successful a product will be, since someone who owns his own company and publishes his own game could be a runaway mainstream success. Its not a measure of anything except some kind of randomly-chosen demographic of ownership.
Stop crapping on the thread dude, or I shall show you my angry face: :mad: grrr.
Those in the thread who have bothered to answer my question understood me exactly, take the "what does 'Indie' actually
mean exactly" crap to a different thread. There's love for these tiny, high profile games, and I'm trying to share in it here.
That said, Dogs in the Vineyard also rocks damn hard...and conveys its ideas pretty well. It's one hell of a parable and being a cowboy with the powers of ultimate justice is cool.
Quote from: RPGPunditAnd, how does one then answer "do you like indie games"? I mean, if all "indie" means is "creator-controlled", it doesn't really say ANYTHING about what the flavour of an Indie game is going to be like, does it?
Well ... I didn't answer the question. Thought about it, came to exactly the same conclusion you just outlined, and kept my mouth shut. 'cuz I think you're right. "Indie" is a business model.
And Joe, I get that some people interpreted your words exactly as you meant them, but that doesn't mean Pundit's wrong: you're still misusing the term. You're making a connection with people who misuse it in a similar way.
Quote from: RPGPunditReally, that's the consensus?
So RIFTS, GURPS, and Amber are all "Indie"?
That is the definition which has been prominently posted on The Forge since it was started in 1999 -- cf. the "About the Forge" (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/about/) (now) and "What is Hephaestus' Forge?" (http://web.archive.org/web/20000511082343/www.indierpgs.com/main.html) from 2000 via Internet Archive. The Forge has reviews of Jim Dietz's "Swashbuckler!", Michael T. Desing's "Army Ants", Dennis Detwiller and Greg Stolze's "Godlike", and many others.
Approximately the same definition has been posted since 2002 on the Indie RPG Awards. cf. the Indie RPG Awards FAQ (http://www.rpg-awards.com/2_qanda.shtml).
Now, this isn't to say that it hasn't been misused -- both by those who frequent the Forge and by others -- to mean specifically "Forge-inspired games" since the URL of the Forge is "indie-rpgs dot com". But Ron Edwards and Clinton Nixon, who host the Forge, are clear that that is their definition. On the Internet, there's no such thing as "consensus".
Quote from: RPGPunditAnd, how does one then answer "do you like indie games"? I mean, if all "indie" means is "creator-controlled", it doesn't really say ANYTHING about what the flavour of an Indie game is going to be like, does it?
I mean, what the fuck is the difference if I publish Forward... To Adventure! myself, or if I get some other company to publish it? Does it suddenly miraculously turn into a different style of game?
You are correct, it doesn't say anything about flavor. There are indie games of all flavors, shapes, and sizes. Being independent isn't a descriptor of the content of the game -- in the same way that indie music or indie movies aren't a particular genre or flavor.
Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it seems to me that most of you try to claim that there's some kind of "indie attitude", but that definition of Indie pretty much means that "Indie" means fuck all. Its not even a measure of how financially successful a product will be, since someone who owns his own company and publishes his own game could be a runaway mainstream success.
Right. And if Artesia or Burning Wheel is a runaway success, then they'll still be indie as long as the author retains control. I do think there is a qualitative difference between a randomly-chosen non-indie game and a randomly-chosen indie game -- because design-by-committee and corporate priorities produce different results than author control. However, there's no strict line.
Quote from: joewolzStop crapping on the thread dude, or I shall show you my angry face: :mad: grrr.
Those in the thread who have bothered to answer my question understood me exactly, take the "what does 'Indie' actually mean exactly" crap to a different thread. There's love for these tiny, high profile games, and I'm trying to share in it here.
That said, Dogs in the Vineyard also rocks damn hard...and conveys its ideas pretty well. It's one hell of a parable and being a cowboy with the powers of ultimate justice is cool.
Sorry to crap on your thread, but I honestly can't tell what you're talking about. Are you not counting Dogs in the Vineyard as "indie"? What games are you talking about?
As a suggestion, maybe you should start another thread with a different title where you explain what games you mean.
Quote from: TonyLBAnd Joe, I get that some people interpreted your words exactly as you meant them, but that doesn't mean Pundit's wrong: you're still misusing the term. You're making a connection with people who misuse it in a similar way.
Is it misuse if it's consensus? I have yet to see a widely accepted alternative. I have all sorts of thought in this vein, but I won't derail a thread I started.
Instead I would like to gush about InSpectres. It does ghostbusters better than WEG's old version. A whole lot better. It's a hell of a lot of fun and I am so glad I bought it!
Quote from: jhkimSorry to crap on your thread, but I honestly can't tell what you're talking about. Are you not counting Dogs in the Vineyard as "indie"? What games are you talking about?
No, I have issues with the word "also." I was trying to keep my posts on topic.
Quote from: jhkimAs a suggestion, maybe you should start another thread with a different title where you explain what games you mean.
Actually, only those who posted the longest and most seem to have not understood me. Gimme a title that everyone will understand and I'lls tart a new thread.
Joe: the point I (and a few others) are making is that the very question of "liking indie games" is a little like saying "I like vegetables". I mean, you can sort of say that as a general rule, and good for you, but in reality there is so much that falls under even the Forge-derived interpretation of "indie" (and again, I reject the concept that they somehow have the right to define what is or is not "indie", especially when they cheat to make games they like count as "indie", ie. Heroquest), that saying that you "like" or "dislike" them becomes a very blanket statement.
I mean, if you just mean Forge games, then you might be able to say "I like them" or "I dislike them", but then call them forge games.
Even if you mean "small press creator-controlled games that are generally not thought of as corporate but indie due to some self-association with the counter-culture", that still covers such a huge span of games that odds are everyone will find some that they like and some they don't.
Shit, even I like OctaNe. The setting, at least.
RPGPundit
I am all for destroying the Forge's would-be ownership of "independent."
Most games these days are "independent." They're one-man/woman shows.
@Pundit
So, Forge Games is the rebel "rpgsite" way of saying Indie games everywhere else? I can live with that. I jsut wish we had debated that elsewhere. I know people around here like games, and I was (and still am) curious as to how mny people like 'em, and which ones. Personally, I'd much rather have started separate threads on each of the ones I like, but that would have cluttered the page.
@Yamo
I am also all for destroying the term. I hate the fact that "indie" is the term for something that really means Forge Created. That's not a value judgement, I think the Forge has done quite a bit of decent community building, at least on the internet, and cranked out some pretty kick ass games.
Again @ Pundit
I know you don't dig most Forge Games, but check out The Shadow of Yesterday. I didn't find it pretentious, and it's an RPG as you define them.
My only gripe with the small collection of Indie games that I've run across is that there seems to be a level of weirdness they're all trying to achieve with their mechanics.
Instead of looking for a mechanic that is easy to resolve conflict, it seems they want to figure out some off-the-wall way to resolve that may (or may not) have bearing on the game, the setting or the price of tea in China.
"Okay, here's how the mechanic works for Post Apocalyptic Zombies on the Moon: First, you take this grapefruit and slice it into thirds along the rotary axis, then you separate out each segment to represent the number of colonists in your particular cell, get it? Next, count - yes, I said "count!" - the numbers of seeds in each segment. You won't actually use this number, but it gives you a sense and a feeling of the anguish the grapefruit feels upon your violation of its environment. Now, squirt some juice a random players eyes and count the number of times he cusses you out. If he smacks you, it's a critical!"
:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:
Conspiracy of Shadows rocks as well.
Quote from: YamoI am all for destroying the Forge's would-be ownership of "independent."
Most games these days are "independent."
(http://users.gmpexpress.net/adkohler/agree.gif)
There's the top 5 or 10 and then there's dozens of smaller games.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad(http://users.gmpexpress.net/adkohler/agree.gif)
There's the top 5 or 10 and then there's dozens of smaller games.
"Dozens?"
I would've said "myriad." :D
Hmmm.
Does The Riddle of Steel count? I quite enjoy that. Dogs fills me with...apathy, really. I mean, it could be fun, but I'd put it in another context - Mormon paladins in 1890's Utah just isn't my thing. It does have the virtue of being 'about' (hopefully) enlightened autonomous enforcers of law and morality in a frontier and a mechanic that's about conflict more than anything. Most of them, however, are way too niche-y for my tastes. The Mountain Witch - it's a goddamn Choose Your Own Adventure book for 2-6 players (IMO), and many others suffer under that label no matter how clever their mechanics are. I admit to having seen very, very few of them myself, but the fact each of these games is about one story bores the hell out of me.
Or in its short form, I agree in this single specific instance with Abyssal Maw.
I do, however, recall discovering Sorcerer online well before Ron seized the Forge's reins. And I hated the way it was written about way back then, like Jesus had come down from the sky and squeezed out a steaming miracle onto the tables of us poor, downtrodden gamers.
Quote from: Christmas ApeDogs fills me with...apathy, really. I mean, it could be fun, but I'd put it in another context - Mormon paladins in 1890's Utah just isn't my thing.
*Cough*Jedi*Cough*
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen*Cough*Jedi*Cough*
That was my first thought, yes.
Alternately, a good friend from my gaming group really, really things with "Inquisitor" in the title. I'm not saying I'd never play
Dogs In The Vineyard, just that I wouldn't use it to play Dogs.
Quote from: Christmas ApeHmmm.
Does The Riddle of Steel count? I quite enjoy that. Dogs fills me with...apathy, really. I mean, it could be fun, but I'd put it in another context - Mormon paladins in 1890's Utah just isn't my thing.
Random thought...
Would it be any different if it was translocated to (a universe like) the serenity (universe)?
Quote from: Caesar SlaadRandom thought...
Would it be any different if it was translocated to (a universe like) the serenity (universe)?
As my small conversation with Levi suggests, I think Dogs could be played with any character concept that
a) Operates under the authority of their own discretion.
b) Has their authority respected by the 'common citizen'.
c) Has a dangerous physical response available if the situation dictates.
Jedi, Imperium Inquisitors, Gene-Engineered Thought Police of a dystopian arcology, princes of a kingdom, Rokugani magistrates...it's all good.
Quote from: Christmas ApeAs my small conversation with Levi suggests, I think Dogs could be played with any character concept that
a) Operates under the authority of their own discretion.
b) Has their authority respected by the 'common citizen'.
c) Has a dangerous physical response available if the situation dictates.
Jedi, Imperium Inquisitors, Gene-Engineered Thought Police of a dystopian arcology, princes of a kingdom, Rokugani magistrates...it's all good.
d) Lives in a world where moral, social breakdown is
important in a quantifiable way.
Fair enough, Levi; I'm willing to slip in a "does what we do even make a difference" sub-theme into the game, but as written that fourth point is required.
Personally, I've never heard as "Indie" referred to as "Forge-Created" anywhere except here. I assume possibly the Forge boards anything "Indie" is "Forge-Created?"
As to the true meaning, Independant Publisher: Someone who publishes a game based on another's system without working for that company...
I'm an Indie Publisher, and I like me.
At least, that's what I tell my drunken reflection right before I try to sucker punch him.
It never works, and I'm not sure why...
Oooooh, Tequila and titties!
For Forge games, I think PTA is brilliant and I also think My Life with Master is truly excellent.
For non-Forge games, I liked Mithras' games so much I host them for him at //www.balbinus.com. Stuff like Zenobia or Warlords of Alexandria is just brilliant, Warlords is a full BRP based historical rpg and is among the best things published in recent years IMO.
In Harm's Way I think is flyingmice's best so far, and well worth some love.
There are tons of others, but if we're talking Forge games PTA and MLwM are I think the dog's bollocks.
I forgot about Warlords when we were nominating historical settings for RPG treatment, and I suggested the Diadochoi era. Zenobia also sounds like it'd be up my alley. Thanks for mentioning those.
Quote from: Elliot WilenI forgot about Warlords when we were nominating historical settings for RPG treatment, and I suggested the Diadochoi era. Zenobia also sounds like it'd be up my alley. Thanks for mentioning those.
I discovered Warlords a few months back, and thought it was pretty cool. BRP goodness all the way.