"Indie games" is a pretty meaningless term. Do you mean Forge games (if so, why does the Forge get the fucking right to define what's "indie" or not)? Do you mean games that have less thatn 5% of the market share (that would mean most of the so-called "industry"), or do you just mean "lesser known games"?

There's tons of good lesser-known games, or games with small print runs, or games from small companies. I don't understand the need to try to define them as "indie", when in reality just about anything that isn't made by Wizards of the Coast (and possibly White Wolf) is actually effectively "indie".

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I like Indie games in general. I do not like (many/most) "Forgie" games.

There are a few I think are solid and brilliant (plus some that get labelled Forge games that really aren't--developed elsewhere but talked about after the fact at the Forge.)

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's tons of good lesser-known games, or games with small print runs, or games from small companies. I don't understand the need to try to define them as "indie", when in reality just about anything that isn't made by Wizards of the Coast (and possibly White Wolf) is actually effectively "indie".

Well, look, you can say that being "indie" or not doesn't make a difference, and you could make a fair point -- but you should at least use the term the way other people do.  Indie means creator-owned or at least creator-controlled, the same way that it does in music or movies.  

For most of the mid-tier companies, the author doesn't control the final product.  For example, N. Robin Crossby wrote HarnMaster, but Columbia Games controlled publication.  He got fed up with what they were doing, and for a time came out with his own indie HarnMaster edition ("HarnMaster Gold").  It is fairly standard in most companies for the authors to not own the rights to be able to do that.  To list some companies: Mongoose Publishing, Green Ronin, FanPro, Eden Studios, Alderac Entertainment, Steve Jackson Games, Atlas Games, Chaosium, and Columbia Games all follow this as far as I know.  

I mostly play non-indie games, but I think like a number of indie games.  I wouldn't say I generally like indie games in general since many of them are terrible, amateurish basement productions.  But there are a number which I really like.

I've long nursed a desire actually to read a novel or two by the noted Tory liar, perjurer and ex-convict Jeffrey Archer. This is so that if I dump on his writing I'm doing it from a position of knowledge. I must here confess the guilty secret that I have a similar interest in trying out one or two of the better known Forge games, eg. DiTV or Sorceror. I suspect that I'm more likely to attempt the latter than the former. That's when it comes to buying and reading the things at least. My players would have the last word on whether or not I'd get any further than that.

Quote from: RPGPundit"Indie games" is a pretty meaningless term. Do you mean Forge games (if so, why does the Forge get the fucking right to define what's "indie" or not)? Do you mean games that have less thatn 5% of the market share (that would mean most of the so-called "industry"), or do you just mean "lesser known games"?

I can answer this call, it's a debate I've wanted to have for a good while.  Why wouldn't I use the term "Indie?" Should I jsut use Forge-Game, or perhaps Story-Game (which is closer to the truth for some)?  I think the reason I used the term "Indie" is explicit in the posts by the people who actually answered my question.

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's tons of good lesser-known games, or games with small print runs, or games from small companies. I don't understand the need to try to define them as "indie", when in reality just about anything that isn't made by Wizards of the Coast (and possibly White Wolf) is actually effectively "indie".

And that's true, but when I say "Indie" game, you know exactly what I mean.  It's a stupid term, and you're absolutely right in thinking that it is...but it is the term for that kind of game.  Can we change that?  I don't know.

No matter the outcome of this thread, The Shadow of Yesterday kicks much more ass than amny other games out there.

I dont like rules that force players into a limited kind of sequence or story, so that makes me dislike a lot of the Forgy games. I like Faery's Tale a lot though.

But a lot of it has nothing to do with the games. When I see some guy acting like a dipshit online, and then I see like,... the same guy trying to promote his own game (or his friend's game or whatever), usually thats enough for me to boycott the game sight unseen.

Quote from: jhkimN. Robin Crossby wrote HarnMaster, but Columbia Games controlled publication.  He got fed up with what they were doing, and for a time came out with his own indie HarnMaster edition ("HarnMaster Gold").

Has something changed, as implied by "for a time"? I just check Harnforum and Kelestia and there's nothing there about a resolution to the dispute between Crossby and Columbia.

Quote from: jhkimWell, look, you can say that being "indie" or not doesn't make a difference, and you could make a fair point -- but you should at least use the term the way other people do.  Indie means creator-owned or at least creator-controlled, the same way that it does in music or movies.

Really, that's the consensus?
So RIFTS, GURPS, and Amber are all "Indie"?

And, how does one then answer "do you like indie games"? I mean, if all "indie" means is "creator-controlled", it doesn't really say ANYTHING about what the flavour of an Indie game is going to be like, does it?
I mean, what the fuck is the difference if I publish Forward... To Adventure! myself, or if I get some other company to publish it? Does it suddenly miraculously turn into a different style of game?

I mean, it seems to me that most of you try to claim that there's some kind of "indie attitude", but that definition of Indie pretty much means that "Indie" means fuck all. Its not even a measure of how financially successful a product will be, since someone who owns his own company and publishes his own game could be a runaway mainstream success. Its not a measure of anything except some kind of randomly-chosen demographic of ownership.

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Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it seems to me that most of you try to claim that there's some kind of "indie attitude", but that definition of Indie pretty much means that "Indie" means fuck all. Its not even a measure of how financially successful a product will be, since someone who owns his own company and publishes his own game could be a runaway mainstream success. Its not a measure of anything except some kind of randomly-chosen demographic of ownership.

Stop crapping on the thread dude, or I shall show you my angry face: :mad: grrr.

Those in the thread who have bothered to answer my question understood me exactly, take the "what does 'Indie' actually mean exactly" crap to a different thread.  There's love for these tiny, high profile games, and I'm trying to share in it here.

That said, Dogs in the Vineyard also rocks damn hard...and conveys its ideas pretty well.  It's one hell of a parable and being a cowboy with the powers of ultimate justice is cool.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd, how does one then answer "do you like indie games"? I mean, if all "indie" means is "creator-controlled", it doesn't really say ANYTHING about what the flavour of an Indie game is going to be like, does it?

Well ... I didn't answer the question.  Thought about it, came to exactly the same conclusion you just outlined, and kept my mouth shut.  'cuz I think you're right.  "Indie" is a business model.

And Joe, I get that some people interpreted your words exactly as you meant them, but that doesn't mean Pundit's wrong:  you're still misusing the term.  You're making a connection with people who misuse it in a similar way.

Quote from: RPGPunditReally, that's the consensus?
So RIFTS, GURPS, and Amber are all "Indie"?

That is the definition which has been prominently posted on The Forge since it was started in 1999 -- cf. the "About the Forge" (now) and "What is Hephaestus' Forge?" from 2000 via Internet Archive.  The Forge has reviews of Jim Dietz's "Swashbuckler!", Michael T. Desing's "Army Ants", Dennis Detwiller and Greg Stolze's "Godlike", and many others.  

Approximately the same definition has been posted since 2002 on the Indie RPG Awards.  cf. the Indie RPG Awards FAQ.  

Now, this isn't to say that it hasn't been misused -- both by those who frequent the Forge and by others -- to mean specifically "Forge-inspired games" since the URL of the Forge is "indie-rpgs dot com".  But Ron Edwards and Clinton Nixon, who host the Forge, are clear that that is their definition.  On the Internet, there's no such thing as "consensus".  

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd, how does one then answer "do you like indie games"? I mean, if all "indie" means is "creator-controlled", it doesn't really say ANYTHING about what the flavour of an Indie game is going to be like, does it?
I mean, what the fuck is the difference if I publish Forward... To Adventure! myself, or if I get some other company to publish it? Does it suddenly miraculously turn into a different style of game?

You are correct, it doesn't say anything about flavor.  There are indie games of all flavors, shapes, and sizes.  Being independent isn't a descriptor of the content of the game -- in the same way that indie music or indie movies aren't a particular genre or flavor.  

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it seems to me that most of you try to claim that there's some kind of "indie attitude", but that definition of Indie pretty much means that "Indie" means fuck all. Its not even a measure of how financially successful a product will be, since someone who owns his own company and publishes his own game could be a runaway mainstream success.

Right.  And if Artesia or Burning Wheel is a runaway success, then they'll still be indie as long as the author retains control.  I do think there is a qualitative difference between a randomly-chosen non-indie game and a randomly-chosen indie game -- because design-by-committee and corporate priorities produce different results than author control.  However, there's no strict line.

Quote from: joewolzStop crapping on the thread dude, or I shall show you my angry face: :mad: grrr.

Those in the thread who have bothered to answer my question understood me exactly, take the "what does 'Indie' actually mean exactly" crap to a different thread.  There's love for these tiny, high profile games, and I'm trying to share in it here.

That said, Dogs in the Vineyard also rocks damn hard...and conveys its ideas pretty well.  It's one hell of a parable and being a cowboy with the powers of ultimate justice is cool.

Sorry to crap on your thread, but I honestly can't tell what you're talking about.  Are you not counting Dogs in the Vineyard as "indie"?  What games are you talking about?

As a suggestion, maybe you should start another thread with a different title where you explain what games you mean.

Quote from: TonyLBAnd Joe, I get that some people interpreted your words exactly as you meant them, but that doesn't mean Pundit's wrong:  you're still misusing the term.  You're making a connection with people who misuse it in a similar way.

Is it misuse if it's consensus?  I have yet to see a widely accepted alternative.  I have all sorts of thought in this vein, but I won't derail a thread I started.

Instead I would like to gush about InSpectres.  It does ghostbusters better than WEG's old version.  A whole lot better.  It's a hell of a lot of fun and I am so glad I bought it!

Quote from: jhkimSorry to crap on your thread, but I honestly can't tell what you're talking about.  Are you not counting Dogs in the Vineyard as "indie"?  What games are you talking about?

No, I have issues with the word "also."  I was trying to keep my posts on topic.

Quote from: jhkimAs a suggestion, maybe you should start another thread with a different title where you explain what games you mean.

Actually, only those who posted the longest and most seem to have not understood me.  Gimme a title that everyone will understand and I'lls tart a new thread.

Joe: the point I (and a few others) are making is that the very question of "liking indie games" is a little like saying "I like vegetables".  I mean, you can sort of say that as a general rule, and good for you, but in reality there is so much that falls under even the Forge-derived interpretation of "indie" (and again, I reject the concept that they somehow have the right to define what is or is not "indie", especially when they cheat to make games they like count as "indie", ie. Heroquest), that saying that you "like" or "dislike" them becomes a very blanket statement.

I mean, if you just mean Forge games, then you might be able to say "I like them" or "I dislike them", but then call them forge games.
Even if you mean "small press creator-controlled games that are generally not thought of as corporate but indie due to some self-association with the counter-culture", that still covers such a huge span of games that odds are everyone will find some that they like and some they don't.
Shit, even I like OctaNe. The setting, at least.

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