Over in this thread :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4949

JimBob said this :

QuoteTo be honest, mate, blokes like you are one of the reasons there aren't more GM advice books on the market. Geeks are quite critical, and start saying, "I know my rights!" if you say anything which they perceive as "telling them how to play." If you write a short and general book, then you don't impose on anyone's "rights", but then the Consonant Dudes of the world will bitch that it was too short and general. If you write a longer and more detailed book, then someone will start babbling that you're oppressing them by telling them how to play.

Gunslinger thought that this deserved a thread of it's own. I agree. I hope Gunslinger does not mind me starting this up. Also this may not be what you had in mind, so feel free to add stuff

There's more from JimBob (there always is) :

QuotePractical game advice comes in for more than the usual share of bitching, because gamers are fiercely independent sorts. Just look at all the gamers bitching on forums because their GM wouldn't let them take yet another lesbianstripperninja character in Middle Earth, or that their GM was "deprotagonising" them, or GMs bitching that their players don't appreciate their genius, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum. So if you write suggesting how they can play, they'll bitch you're oppressing them, basically. Couple that with the usual criticism any game book comes in for, and most authours won't bother.

So, what do you folks think ? Do players have rights that make writing a practical game advice book difficult? What are these so-called rights ?

Regards,
David R

"there's more... there always is..."

Thanks, mate!

It's not that gamers have rights as gamers, it's just that, "I know my rights!" is my mocking way of paraphrasing the way gamers sometimes talk. They get all antsy when they think someone is telling them what to do, whether that be a game designer, a GM, or whatever.

So really you should be asking, "do you get upset when you think someone is telling you how to game?"

I don't think "rights" is the right word for the idea, but I take your meaning.

No.  I think folk who generally don't like GM advice wont buy and read GM advice books.  I've yet to witness this phenomenon.

I do agree with the sentiment that many folk don't like being told how to game.  I've encountered many very opinionated players and GMs who refuse to even try something new, let alone engage in introspection into their own way of playing.

Yeah, Rights is being used in a jokey manner, although I do think that some gamers actually believe that there are some inalienable rights they have as players :eek:

Another question. Do you think the reason gaming advise sometimes receives a hostile reception is because of the way how the advise is executed ?

IMO folks tend to forget that the advise may be sound but the manner in which it is executed may be dodgy.

Regards,
David R

I think that most GMadvice books aren't written or popular because a unified vocabulary to describe our hobby is non-existent.

It's hard to describe roleplaying to someone without ever showing them.  I'm certain is someone is going to say, "I was self-taught!"  My answer is first, good for you, second no you're not.  Not completely that is.

We as gamers surely have a rather uniform experience in our gaming, even the Forge people.  If that uniformity could be codified in a manner everyone could agree on, I think many "GM advice" books would be better.  

Then again, our industry would need to have a real set of pundits that were recognized as such by most gamers.

Robin Laws comes close, which is why his work is so respected.  I'm certain it could be expanded as well.

I must be really strange - these kinds of issues never really come up with my bunch of players. They trust me by now.  
 I might maim or beat up their characters from time to time - but thats only because they put tmelselves in places anbd se4ttings where thats likely to happen. If they DIE - then they really sacrewed up or I got a vicious bastard of an NPC on my hands.

My players have the same right that anybody else in this country has.

 I have heard of other groups locally who have major quibbles and arguments amongst their players.


- Ed C.

Certainly that trust comes with time and experience. The "I know my rights!" screamers are those who are new to the game group, and/or people talking online to those they don't know personally. Most people who take the time to get to know each-other stop screaming this stuff, and if they don't, end up not staying in the game group. Which leaves them only with game forums and perhaps they go on to write a GMless game...

Quote from: David RAnother question. Do you think the reason gaming advise sometimes receives a hostile reception is because of the way how the advise is executed ?

IMO folks tend to forget that the advise may be sound but the manner in which it is executed may be dodgy.

Yeah, especially online where our lack of ability to convey tone makes us all sound a bit more authoritative/pretentious when doling out advice.

I, personally, laugh at products that say "this is the way to do it" instead of those that give a range of options, with a few exceptions for narrowly tailored games designed to be run a specific way.

Quote from: JimBobOzCertainly that trust comes with time and experience. The "I know my rights!" screamers are those who are new to the game group, and/or people talking online to those they don't know personally. Most people who take the time to get to know each-other stop screaming this stuff, and if they don't, end up not staying in the game group. Which leaves them only with game forums and perhaps they go on to write a GMless game...

Well, I certainly believe that trust is the ultimate component of a good game group, and by extension a good gaming experience.

To me, trust is the most important part of gaming.

Quote from: JimBobOzCertainly that trust comes with time and experience. The "I know my rights!" screamers are those who are new to the game group, and/or people talking online to those they don't know personally. Most people who take the time to get to know each-other stop screaming this stuff, and if they don't, end up not staying in the game group. Which leaves them only with game forums and perhaps they go on to write a GMless game...

 I am grinning at your subtle and crafty insult in the midst of that .
 Well played sir!!



(...and for those wondering, I know who the shots were directed at ... {{:-) )

Quote from: KoltarI am grinning at your subtle and crafty insult in the midst of that .
 Well played sir!!



(...and for those wondering, I know who the shots were directed at ... {{:-) )

Don't encourage JimBob's cheeckiness :grumpy:

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RDon't encourage JimBob's cheeckiness :grumpy:

Regards,
David R

Bah! It doesn't matter! Cheekiness is the Aussie national sport.

-clash

See these things come up all the time because my players fear me.  Oh they love my campaigns but there isn't any trust at all.  Sure I'm the kind of DM who gives a PC a sword made of god bone at first level, just to watch him sweat for the next three levels wondering why he needs it.  But honestly, my players need the comforting reassurance of rights.

Quote from: David JohansenSee these things come up all the time because my players fear me.  Oh they love my campaigns but there isn't any trust at all.  Sure I'm the kind of DM who gives a PC a sword made of god bone at first level, just to watch him sweat for the next three levels wondering why he needs it.  But honestly, my players need the comforting reassurance of rights.

In other words, your players need rights, and a few lefts too?

-clash

You have the right to cower in aject fear when the ice dragon manifests in the form of a twelve year old girl floating three feet off the ground, and freezes everything in a mile radius in midsummer.

You have the right to wince when the ramshakle old knight turns and charges the unleashed legions of hell only looking back to shout "ARE YOU COMING OR WHAT?"

You have the right to wear a large metal plate in the seat of your pants and firebomb outhouses before using them.

You have the right to have your old punching bag joker wannabe nemesis turn up wearing plate armour under his baggy clothing and have him start pulling sticks of dynamite from his pockets and lighting the fuses with his cigar.

You have the right to push the close door button when the ship's turbo lift door opens onto the gates of Heaven or Hell.  (did you go up or down?)

You have the right to be mad at the devil when he blows up the bar you were in after offerring you a light.