and in a reply to my own reply...

I will proclaim that I have weighed and measured the entirety of the Runequest Gaming Populace....

and the pronounce I have found  the levels of Dickery to be no greater or worse than any other RPG made before 2010.

I own Frank Mentzer's play copies of his B/X edits. Love the guy. Still doesn't change this dick's opinion and experience.

On the whole, RQ /BRP are better game designs. Tighter, more coherent, clear terminology, logical system mechanics, and easier to teach to someone who did not understand RPGs (Most people understand percentages, and skills- most people have a tougher time with D&D's naming conventions and abstract nature).

Same goes for Traveller.


BECMI is my least favorite edit (includes the RC by AA, too)

The B is overly wordy, a layout nightmare, splits info over two books, and is a very specific teaching tool without much "repeat use".
No issue with his Expert edit.
Companion set was  massive disappointment, with the only standout item being the mass combat rules, which unfortunately nobody had use for in my gaming circles.  The supporting adventures were also lackluster
M&I are largely ignored for crunchy rules that don't bring anything to gameplay and also supporting materials are pretty bad.

The Moldvay Cook Marsh edits are to this day nearly universally seen as the best version of the "basic" edits, to the point that it has also become the Golden Child of the OSR movement- going all the way back to BFRPG, and LL. I know that once Moldvay/Cook/Marsh became available, I switched over to those rules and dropped our LBB/AD&D mashup.

That also said, I had dropped D&D pretty much altogether by 1983 for Runequest 2 as our system of choice having played D&D in some  form for the prior 6 years.

Okay. Consider professional help.

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 03:53:18 PM
Well... then is this thread a service announcement post that all Runequest players, and those that like the game are hereby proclaimed as "DICKS"?

You should have just led with that.

Yes, but then somebody might have thought he was obnoxious.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 03:44:08 PM
In the intervening years, I have found the Runequest fans period to be just as obnoxious as that one system sob. So I don't see myself as losing out on anything by avoiding them.

No doubt. Each and every one is a dick. Without exception. It couldn't possibly be that you, who can't let go of one teenage conversation from 30+ years ago, is the problem. Nope. Nope. It's everyone who likes Runequest. And Hero Games. And.... 

Teenagers are monsters and extremely tribal about their first game, band, etc...and most people don't get better with age.

I liked RQ until I met Glorantha snobs, but fortunately that's when I discovered the Stormbringer RPG which I felt was the better D100 fantasy iteration - especially for sword & sorcery.

And 3.5 decades later, I've not encountered Moorcock snobs and the majority of my Stormbringer players have had little setting knowledge so its never been an issue.

Would I play RQ again? Probably not, but I would play a D100 fantasy game like OpenQuest or the original Magic World (haven't read the new edition).

But what I'd FAR rather play is Palladium Fantasy 1e which always felt TO ME like (AD&D + RQ)/2 + 1.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 03:44:08 PM
In the intervening years, I have found the Runequest fans period to be just as obnoxious as that one system sob. So I don't see myself as losing out on anything by avoiding them.

Okay, that's some sound logic there...

Although, perhaps those RQ players dodged a bullet.

Quote from: Bren on November 23, 2020, 06:05:51 PM

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 03:53:18 PM
Well... then is this thread a service announcement post that all Runequest players, and those that like the game are hereby proclaimed as "DICKS"?

You should have just led with that.

Yes, but then somebody might have thought he was obnoxious.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 03:44:08 PM
In the intervening years, I have found the Runequest fans period to be just as obnoxious as that one system sob. So I don't see myself as losing out on anything by avoiding them.

No doubt. Each and every one is a dick. Without exception. It couldn't possibly be that you, who can't let go of one teenage conversation from 30+ years ago, is the problem. Nope. Nope. It's everyone who likes Runequest. And Hero Games. And.... 

When you run into one person who irritates you, you've probably just met an asshole. When everyone you meet irritates you, you are the asshole.

Quote from: JeffB on November 23, 2020, 04:30:48 PM
...
On the whole, RQ /BRP are better game designs. Tighter, more coherent, clear terminology, logical system mechanics, and easier to teach to someone who did not understand RPGs (Most people understand percentages, and skills- most people have a tougher time with D&D's naming conventions and abstract nature).
...

While I agree that d100 part of RQ was a better system design.

It was not the better game.

In many respects it fell short of the B/X standard that made D&D great:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-s-5-point-winning-formula/

The two biggest things that RQ got wrong were PC creation, and the setting.

For PC creation: Too many skills, too free-form point buy. A trimmed skill list to under 20 with starting "templates" like the Star Wars d6 rpg would have made getting into the game much smoother.

The Setting: Gorlantha. I really shouldn't have to say anything else. The continual tie-in of d100 RQ to Gorlantha has ensured that the d100 RQ system could not, and never will, be a real competitor to D&D.

But at this point none of that really matters.

3.0 cleaned up and made the underlying d20 mechanic's easy and straightforward to understand.

The 5e design team throttled complexity back to what players said they thought they wanted.

RQ has not taken a fundamental look at their game since its 2nd edition. And so RQ has captured a market share appropriate with that approach.

This is unacceptable, this dishonor cannot stand, how can you expect to be admitted to Stovokor when you die in battle if you let this miserable pe'taq escape the justice that honor demands? Your ancestors are likely being evicted from the afterlife as we speak for your allowing this insolence to stand...thats right, pal, you may soon have long dead relatives trying to crash at your place, their rotting bones thankfully masking the reek of any cabbage that might be being boiled, and all because you let this smug little blood fly carry on in life telling everyone about how he once schooled a D&D nerd and converted them to RQ.

Your duty is clear, and honor demands melee, no murder drones, so stop your seething and your coping and do what must be done. The offender is likely working at one of the last remaining blockbuster dvd/vhs rental places still in operation, or a K-mart, or another place where one might espouse the glories of RQ over D&D and not be killed where they stand. Go, may the wrath of Kahless himself be with you, bring the honor due your house home in his empty skull. And remember what the worthiest opponents say; "Victory is Life".

Q'plah!

I'm going to add a little more fire on this bonfire.

I have never met anyone in real life that actively played Runequest. Including the now-deceased friend who was a total Chaosuin fanboy. Runequest just never came up as a play option.

Also, there is another reason why I am no fan of Runequest. That was when Mongoose Publishing abandoned OGL Conan and was trying to force all of their customers to change to Runquest. Changing the basis of that game to Runequest.

I just had no interest. And I was firmly on the side of Conan Properties Inc. when they took the license away from Mongoose.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 08:58:10 PM
I'm going to add a little more fire on this bonfire.

I have never met anyone in real life that actively played Runequest. Including the now-deceased friend who was a total Chaosuin fanboy. Runequest just never came up as a play option.

Also, there is another reason why I am no fan of Runequest. That was when Mongoose Publishing abandoned OGL Conan and was trying to force all of their customers to change to Runquest. Changing the basis of that game to Runequest.

I just had no interest. And I was firmly on the side of Conan Properties Inc. when they took the license away from Mongoose.

I've been playing for > 35 years and I too have never seen Runequest in play. I've know a few people that I've played with that own it, and one of them has even claimed to have played it (he's dead now from "the ass cancer"), but I've never met any of the others that were rumored to have played it with him.

Here's the deal with RQ. You could easily play RQ 2e with a light sprinkling of Glorantha based on the setting material of the core book, and back in the day, we played lots of RQ 2e with tremendous freedom in the setting.

AKA, imagine Star Wars campaigns between 1977 and whenever your table all saw Empire Strikes Back. You'd be doing all sorts of crazy non-canon stuff.

But then RQ3e hit and there was LOTS more Glorantha in the core book and that made Glorantha fans very happy...and lost everyone else.

D&D's success was that there was no core setting. As a thought experiment, imagine how D&D would have done if Empire of the Petal Throne was the default setting in the core book?

EPT is a wonderful setting...but it's not for everyone.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 23, 2020, 09:58:17 PM
Here's the deal with RQ. You could easily play RQ 2e with a light sprinkling of Glorantha based on the setting material of the core book, and back in the day, we played lots of RQ 2e with tremendous freedom in the setting.

AKA, imagine Star Wars campaigns between 1977 and whenever your table all saw Empire Strikes Back. You'd be doing all sorts of crazy non-canon stuff.

But then RQ3e hit and there was LOTS more Glorantha in the core book and that made Glorantha fans very happy...and lost everyone else.

D&D's success was that there was no core setting. As a thought experiment, imagine how D&D would have done if Empire of the Petal Throne was the default setting in the core book?

EPT is a wonderful setting...but it's not for everyone.

That was akin to my objection to the Champions 4th Edition era, when the company tried to create a whole universe out all of the supplements they had published to that date and beyond.

They literally stuffed references to every organizations book and villain's book into one big completely overcrowded and unplayable setting. It was a mess. And it completely undermined the prior modularity of those supplements.

The big strength of those organizations books and supplements is that you could drop in or ignore anything you wanted.

And the real selling point of Champions was in building your own stuff. Which having an official setting utterly ignored.

If you look at what Steve Long's Champions Universe has done in the Champions Online MMO. You see a setting with no room for new characters. The stars of the show are already set. What fun is that? There's nothing for new characters to really achieve.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 01:50:20 AM
-snipped for brevity-
So I met a new kid from the neighborhood. Told him I was into D&D. Just bought it. And was looking for a group to play with. And I asked if he knew of anyone from the school who did. Well he never answered my question. But instead launched into a rant about how much D&D sucked and how Runequest was oh so much better.

I finally got mad after about an hour of him berating the game system I actually owned. And told him that D&D is what I had. Deal with it. And I walked away from him and never spoke to him again.

But Runequest? That's a bridge I have never crossed. And am content to just leave it be.

I had a friend in college who did this. Being quite older than you, I tried it out with my 'ye olde grouppe'.  I can attest to one thing: once you try Glorantha by the great Greg Stafford - you don't regret it. By far, one of the BEST sources for campaign play! There was even a computer game* back in the 90s that was quite... strategic and narrative-based, like Civilization's tech tree and city management crossed with a Choose Your Own Adventure. Forgot the name of it though*...
And the DUCKS!

You can dip your toe into Glorantha here, if YOU DARE! https://www.glorantha.com/


EDIT: Oops, never mind- I found it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Dragon_Pass

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 23, 2020, 09:58:17 PM
But then RQ3e hit and there was LOTS more Glorantha in the core book and that made Glorantha fans very happy...and lost everyone else.

You've gotten things mixed up here. RQ3 was the edition that tried to separate the rules from Glorantha.