Quote from: 1989;316856I haven't played much 1E (only the very first few sessions in my life). I have the 1E hardbacks, but have not found anyone who wants to play. Concerning OSRIC/1E, what are the main differences between it and 2E?

Shouldn't be too much of a problem.  Converting the 1E to-hit combat tables to THAC0 is very simple.

AD&D2 differences from AD&D (pulled from Wikipedia):

QuoteDifferences from Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

    * Half-orcs were removed from the Player's Handbook.
    * Character classes were organized into four groups: Warrior (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger), Wizard (Mage, Specialist Wizard), Priest (Cleric, Druid), and Rogue (Thief, Bard).
    * Assassins and Monks were removed from the game as character classes.
    * "Magic-users" were renamed "mages".
    * Illusionists were made into a subtype of the Wizard class, along with new classes specializing in the other seven schools of magic (which were first introduced in Dragonlance Adventures).
    * Bards were made a normal character class, rather than the multiple-classed character that they had been, although they still possessed elements of fighters, thieves, and mages.
    * Proficiencies were officially supported in the Player's Handbook and many supplements, rather than being the optional add-on.
    * Attack matrices were exchanged for "THAC0" (To Hit Armor Class 0) and the table printed only once in the Dungeon Master's Guide was reprinted in the second edition Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.
    * References to "segments" (individual units of time representing one phase of initiative, or 6 seconds of game-time [simulated time]) were removed from the game; instead, actions were given an "Initiative Modifier". "Melee rounds" were unchanged, representing one minute of game-time, with a "turn" representing ten rounds (ten minutes). An optional alternative where one "melee round" represents 12–15 seconds of "game-time" was presented in the "Player's Option: Combat & Tactics" book, first of the so-called 2.5 Edition.
    * Other changes to combat including the function of weapon speed, initiative, and surprise rules.
    * Priest and Druid spells were organized into themed "spheres" that were similar to the wizard spell schools that had been introduced in Dragonlance Adventures, with access to spheres being determined by the priest's class and deity.
    * Descriptions of artifacts (unique magic items) were removed from the Dungeon Master's Guide.
    * Many utilities, including tables for random generation of dungeons, were removed from the Dungeon Master's Guide.
    * Exchange rates for the low-valued coins were doubled; it now took only 100 copper pieces or 10 silver pieces to make one gold piece.
    * The hardcover Monster Manual was initially replaced by the looseleaf binder-format Monstrous Compendium; the Monstrous Compendium would eventually be replaced by the hardcover Monstrous Manual.
    * Fiendish and angelic creatures (demons, devils, daemons, devas, solars, etc.) were removed from the game, as were spells that allowed such creatures to be summoned or controlled. These creatures would later be renamed and modified in the Monstrous Compendium supplement on the Outer Planes.
    * Psionics were no longer included in the Player's Handbook, though they later appeared in their own supplement.
    * Maximum level was standardized at 20 rather than varying by class.
    * Magic resistance was changed so that a mage above 11th level would not impose a 5% penalty per mage level above 11th on an unwilling subject the mage was casting a spell on.

Take away/Reverse-engineer these features from AD&D2 and you got AD&D1. In essence, OSRIC (its retroclone).

Quote from: ggroy;316847What would your "ideal" tabletop PnP rpg be?

Well, take 3.0, add the houserules I got the group to agree on already (see the bard campaign guide on the blog), then I would tinker as follows:

Get rid of all feats that simply added a numerical bonus to something whether to a skill, dc, attack, ac, etc.  Make the feats characteristic of something you could do in a fight, or outside of a fight, rather than a cool name for a simple number modifier.

Kill off social skills, like diplomacy, bluff, etc., and make them all roleplayed out.

Put a cap on ability scores for humans of 18, regardless of magical gear.  

Put a cap of AC, equivalent to the old days with -10 the best you could go, no matter the buffs.

Eliminate the classing of monsters.  Monsters don't have feats and skills,  they simply have special attacks, resistances, abilities, etc.

Bring back the 1e rules on magic item creation, requiring a quest type thing to find the wing of a marsh butterfly gathered in the light of a full moon, during a lightning storm in July.  Make the system up to the DM to let the player know what they have to do on a case by case basis.

XP for gold = awesomeness.

Clerics shouldn't be able to cast what used to be MU spells, no matter the domains. In fact, the whole concept of domains is gay.  Get rid of it entirely. Special spells related to a priest of a certain god is one thing, as long as they are directly related to that god, and not available to any other clerical order, but for the cleric of the god of war to have power word spells is stupid.

We changed a lot of other things in the houserules already.  Pasted below.  ANY CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN WHAT I TYPED ABOVE AND WHAT I TYPED BELOW UNDER THE ACTUAL HOUSE RULES ARE DUE TO THE FACT THAT BELOW IS WHAT I COULD GET THE GROUP TO AGREE ON WHILE ABOVE IS MY DREAM LIST.  

There are several basic themes to the houserules we use.  We wanted to avoid high level headaches, deal with slow combat, make it less of an ability score and plus magic item driven game, make high level characters still have to travel on foot/horse, nerf the scry and fry option, make wizards more powerful in combat in terms of damage, get rid of BS buffs and the problems associated with them, make magic items more rare and valuable and harder to make, eliminate magic stores, and deal with splat-book power creep.  We also wanted to bring back a more AD&D theme to the game.

Accordingly, we created the following houserules.  We use the 3.0 rules as the base unless otherwise indicated.  Other splatbooks are not allowed, nor is any content from them.  We play with the Core Rules unless otherwise indicated.

   4.1   Rolling up the character:
      
Each player is given 42 dice to divide as they wish amongst the 7 abilities.  For example:

         Strength      6
         Constitution   5
         Intelligence      7
         Wisdom      4
         Dexterity      8
         Charisma      6
         Attractiveness   6
      
Each player then rolls that number of dice per each score, keeping the best 3 to determine their initial ability scores.  They can then add one point to any score by taking away 2 points from any other, up to a maximum or 18.  They then add or subtract any racial ability modifiers.  This ensures they have a character who doesn't suck ass.  
   
   4.2     Classes:
   
Only core classes allowed, plus the assassin.  Prestige classes don't exist.  Also, though commoners can have skills and progress in their classes, like merchant, sailor, etc, they don't necessarily gain attack bonuses or HP per level.  It's stupid for a merchant to gain HP when all he does all day is buy and sell.  That shouldn't make him any better at surviving a hit from a high level guy, or of being able to hit him.
   
Sorcerers as of now do not exist.  If Pathfinder does them well in the final edition, based on what I've seen in Beta they just might be able to redeem the class in my eyes, then I will allow them.

Psionics does not exist, so neither does the class.

Ability scores increase by +1 every four levels for one ability score chosen by the player.

Rangers are per the ranger class in 3.5, not 3.0, except they use a 10 sided HD.


   4.3     Races:  
      
Players can only choose one of the classic races.  Tieflings and Dragonborn don't exist just on general principle.  All other races like Drow exist, but can't be used as player characters.  

   
   4.4     Skills

Pathfinder Beta skills and skill progression are used.  See skills section for new skills, and DC's for all skills relevant to the campaign.
         

   4.5    Feats
      
 
Skill point modifiers of +4 can be purchased with one feat, stackable and not dependent on level.

Saving throw modifiers of +2 can be purchased with one feat for every 10 levels, stackable, per saving throw type.

One ability point can be purchased for one feat for every 10 character levels, stackable.

You can take a feat that gives you +2 to the DC of any particular school for one feat, stackable with no level restrictions.  

You can purchase a feat that gives you a +2 bonus to beat spell resistance every 5 levels.   
   
Wizards can take a feat which takes 5% off of arcane spell failure chances when casting in armor, assuming they have a proficiency in the armor type they are casting in.  This is stackable.

You can take feats to give you additional attacks per round. Cost depends on weapon size.  For one more attack, it costs 2 feats for tiny, 3 for small, 4 for medium, 5 for large weapons.

Metamagic feats:  Each metamagic feat taken allows for one spell to have that metamagic type placed upon it per day.  Multiple metamagic feats of the same type are allowed.  More than one metamagic effect can be placed on the same spell.  Metamagic spells are memorized at the same level as normal spells, as the metamagic is applied at the time of casting.  Metamagic effects cannot be placed into magic items or scrolls.  In other words, if a wiz takes 2 maximize feats and one silence feat, he can cast a maximized fireball, and a maximized and silenced fireball, each memorized at third level, per day.  A metamagic effect is placed onto a spell at the time of casting, not at the time of memorization.  Therefore, is a caster has taken one feat in Maximize, he can place it on any one spell per day, chosen at the time the spell is cast.  If he places it on fireball at the time he casts his fireball spell, he cannot place it on any other fireball spells he has memorized.  It is a one time per day per feat action.  You can place more than one metamagic effect on a spell at the same time, in other words you can place Silent and Maximize on one fireball spell if you want to.
         

   4.6    Spells and Spellcasting in general
         
Memorization can only be done once every 24 hour period.  Wizards must read their spellbooks, and clerics must meditate, for 2 hours regardless of caster level or number of spells memorized, to be fully replenished in spells.

Cantrips/Orisons:  Can cast any in the PF Beta list or Wizard's spellbook, no specific spell memorization required other than the general daily meditation.  Up to max # per day, per level/class chart in PHB.  So a wizard with 14 cantrips in his spellbook who can cast 4 per day, can cast any of the 14 per day, up to a max of 4 cantrips total.                  

Spell DC's:  10 + spell level + attribute bonus, plus 1 for every 3 caster levels.
Haste spells and increased speed effects on weapons or items that duplicate haste or speed or increases in number of attacks per round do not exist.  Wizards lose haste spells, weapons of speed don't exist, anything that multiplies or adds to number of attacks per round doesn't exist.
Any spell can be memorized and cast as a higher level spell for the purposes of giving it a higher DC.

Skill buff spells: do not exist.

Ability Score Buff Spells like Cat's Grace, etc, do not exist.

Healing Spells:     
      
Cure light:  10% of the total max hp of the injured, plus caster level up to 5, plus 1d4.
Cure moderate: 20% of the total max hp of the injured, plus caster level up to 10, plus 2d4
Cure serious:  30% of the total max hp of the injured, plus caster level up to 15, plus 3d4
Cure critical: 40% of the total max hp of the injured, plus caster level up to 20, plus 4d4
Heal:  100% healed  
Harm = all but 1-4 hp left.

   4.7   Combat

Rogues can only backstab if he has surprise. He cannot do it in combat unless invisible or hiding in shadows, and silent, and has studied the opponent in combat for 1 full round.  Merely flanking an opponent does not give a backstab chance.

Grappling is a useless pain in the ass and does not exist.  Monsters can still grab you and throw your ass around and/or rend your ass off, per the DM's discretion.  None of the other special combat moves exist, such as trip, sunder, etc.  This will be reviewed when the PF Final Edition comes out.
Level drain = take one point away from every stat, save, ac, attack, skill, and ½ hit die for every level drained.

DR (Damage Resistance) does not exist

Spell DC's:  10 + spell level + attribute bonus, plus 1 for every 3 caster levels.
         
   4.8    Magic Items

Ability Score increasing items:  do not exist.  This includes permanent stat increases gained through books.

No amount of magic items can give more than a +5 cumulative bonus to any one skill for every 10 levels of the character.

Saving throw items:  items that add a bonus to saving throws as a group do not exist. Characters can have no more than a total of +5 to saves, broken out by individual saving throw, every 20 levels.  for example, +2 fort, +2 reflex, +1 will, being the max you could get if 15th level, or some other combination of those 5 points.  You could never get an item that gives a bonus to any more than 1 type of save.

No magic items can give the ability to fly.

1 magic ring may be worn per hand.1 magical broach, amulet, pendant, etc may be worn on a person.

In general, "plus" magic items to AC or Attack do not exist more than +1.  They will likely have other abilities built into them, such as a blade that cuts through stone like it is earth, or Wond of Wonders type stuff.  Magic items are rare and costly to make, due to the constitution drain, so they are very valuable.  

Magical bonuses to natural armor doesn't exist.

   4.9    Magic Item Research

Magic item creation does not use xp, but does take 1 day per every 1000 gp in market value of the item. Cost to make each item is half of market value.  Potions take one day to make regardless of cost or level of spell in them.  Scrolls take one hour per spell level to scribe.  Permanency must be cast for every non scroll or non potion item which costs over 5000 gp.  If you cast permanency on an item you lose 1 constitution point permanently.  You get 10% of the market value of the item as xp.  Permanency is not needed for teleport or sanctuary portals.  Charged items like wands do not require permanency.  This Constitution drain can be overcome by using a gem of 100,000 gp value as a component in the creation process, but the gem is destroyed during the creation of the item.  Also, there will be some cost and time involved to researching a particular magic item, perhaps requiring a mission or quest to get the components for said item as they would be exotic.  Once the item has been created once, or the player found a book on how to create such an item, the time and cost factors are no longer a consideration.

Magic items cannot be bought or sold other than very low level items like a potion of cure light wounds.  There are no magic item stores.  They are prized, rare, and held onto.

Staffs:  spells cast out of them are at the level and dc of the caster holding the staff.
      
   4.10   Spells:

Resurrection / Wish / Limited Wish/Miracle:  must have been a proven active and devoted follower of the god whose power you are drawing upon, or become a follower by being given that choice upon resurrection, or perform some significant quest for that god if resurrection or wish granted.  If granted, it will be with a geas on you for your (new) god's greater glory of some sort. A mission you must accomplish or something along those lines.  9th level spell.  No XP penalty.
   
Fly:  it is a 7th level spell, and it lasts 10 minutes per caster level.  Speed 180'.  20 mph.

Polymorph is now a 7th level spell.   10 minutes per level.  If a creature is polymorphed into another one which has a means of flying, he cannot fly in that polymorphed form unless he has spent 1 year in that form so as to have had practice.  To be reviewed when PF Final comes out.

Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor last 1 round per level of caster.
Magic Missile is the same as per PHB except that no level limit on number of missiles.

Burning Hands changed to a Fire, Lightning, Acid, Sonic, or Cold Fan Attack.  
5 separate spells.

1st level spell.
Damage is 1d4 plus 1 per caster level.  
No save.
Magic Resistance applies.
Range/Area is a 120 degree fan shaped area, radiating outward from the caster's hands, at 5 feet plus 1 foot per caster level.

Fireball and Lightning Bolt changed to Fire, Lightning, Acid, Sonic, Cold Attack.  
5 separate spells.
Cone of Cold no longer exists.
3rd level spell
Reflex save for half
Spell resistance applies.
Choose Ball, Burst, Cone or Bolt at time of casting.
All of them do 1d6 +1 level of the caster damage, no level caps.

Ball:
Range 400 ft plus 40 ft/level
Area of effect 20 foot radius plus 1 foot per caster level.

Burst:  
Range is centered on you spreading outward in a circle.  
Area of effect 20 feet radius plus1 foot per level.

Bolt:
Range for a 5 foot wide bolt is100 feet plus 10 feet/level, for a 10 foot wide bolt is 50 feet plus 5 feet/level, starting at the caster.
Area of effect = same as range.

Cone:
Range is 25 feet plus 5 feet every 2 levels
Area of effect is as a cone.  Shape is determined as color spray graphic for shape of cone.

Delayed Blast Fireball changed to Delayed Blast Fire, Acid, Cold, Sonic, Lightning.
5 separate spells.
7th level spell
Damage is 1d6 plus 2 per level of caster.         
Range 400 ft plus 40 ft/level
Area of effect 20 foot radius plus 1 foot per caster level.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction:  can only be cast at one item per person, or one person.  If on a person it takes away all enchantments via spell a person might have on them.  I.e. all buffs.  No knowledge ahead of time as to what enchantments an item or person might have.  

Etherealness:  merged with plane shift spell.

Dispel Magic: as per the spells but when cast you understand the levels of power or enchantment you are trying to dispel, as well as the school of the spell.  For example, 9th level abjuration, 3rd level charm, etc.  If cast in an area, you dispel one random item or enchantment on a person for every 5 levels of the caster.  If cast at a particular person, you can choose what item or enchantment to dispel, one per every 5 levels.   If you dispel an item, it simply does not work for 1 round per caster level.  For purposes of dc, the item's dc is 10 plus ½ the caster level of the person who created it.  If you dispel a permanent spell, those spells do not work for one hour per caster level.

Scrying:  does not exist as a spell or a skill.  It only operates through a device.  Wizards can do it through a mirror or a ball, clerics through an altar with holy water in it, druids through a sanctified pool of water in nature.  All three have to have been sanctified/magically created at a cost of 100,000 gp.  The device can be used a number of minutes per day equal to two times the caster level.  If True Seeing or Infravision/Darkvision is cast on the viewer, he can use it to see through the device.  You can see, hear, and communicate telepathically if you have the spell, looking at either a location 40' x 40', or a person and the 40x40 area they are in, from any angle chosen.  You can zoom-in within in that area as if you were there, in other words to read a book on a table.  That angle can change as you wish during the duration.  To move to another 40x40 area takes one round.  If crystal balling or scrying in any other form is detected by the observed, then it can be stopped by the use of darkness or dispel magic, the observed simply noting the small disturbance in the air caused by the magical viewing and casting the spell upon that spot, thus causing the scrying to cease for the length of the darkness spell or for a full day in the case of dispel magic.  DC is based on the viewer's level and having cast a 7th level spell.
      
Wizards can scry on familiars as per the PHB 1 x per day without the crystal ball.      

Chances of successful scrying other than familiar scrying are:  
Subject is
Personally well known  100%
Personally known slightly  80%
Pictured  50%
Part of in possession  50%
Garment in possession  25%
Well informed of  25%
Slightly informed of  20%
On another plane -25% to total

Teleport:  9th level spell.  Casting time 1 hour.  Only from one specific location to another, each location having a teleportation circle. Each circle costs 10,000 gp to make, and is attuned to the person who made it.  It costs 1000 gp for each additional foot in diameter.  A Wizard can always use each circle, as long as each one is his, or he has a key to another wizard's circle made specifically for him by that other wizard.  He can bring along anyone he wants as long as each person has specially attuned keys, specifically attuned to that passenger and both the starting and destination circles, and as long as everyone can fit into the circles.  Each key costs 1000 gp to make.  There is no such thing as generic keys.  A guild offers keys to their guild to member wizards in good standing for 5000 gp per key so they can teleport into or out of the guildhall.  No wizard is allowed to bring non wizards into the guild hall via teleport circles.  Other than a wizard's familiar, no other life forms are allowed without a key, even if smuggled in a portable hole or something like that.  A caster always knows if a circle at the other end is occupied, destroyed, or operational as soon as you cast the spell, but before you go.  This is so he can call off the teleport at that time if unsafe, while not blowing the spell.

Astral Spell: incorporated into plane shift.

Plane Shift:  either wizard or cleric, 9th level spell.  Casting time 4 hours.  1000 gp per person taken along with the spellcaster.  Can either go astral, ethereal, or shift whole body to that plane.

Wind Walk—7th druid and 8th cleric.  10 min level, one recipient at a time, cant go in and out of it.  Going out of it ends it. Speed 180'. 20 mph.

Shadow Walk:  9th level spell.  After casting, wizard and all who came along with him are extremely fatigued, and must rest for a full night's sleep.  Spell casting is not possible, nor is combat.

Tree Walk:  7th level spell.  One round casting time.  Can go from one tree of same type to another, miles traveled is the level of the caster.  Can take no one along with you.   Rangers can use it as a 4th level spell. Rangers can only use it to go from one tree type to another, which he declares the first time he uses the spell.  Can never later in life change tree types.  Tree type must be one from his home forest.  Druids can always switch tree types each time he casts a new spell.

Sanctuary:  Goal is to get cleric back home, or to save a life.  9th level spell.  Casting time free action.  The cleric must sanctify one particular space in a shrine to his god to teleport himself to, cost 10,000 gp for a 10' diameter space, 1000 gp each additional foot diameter.  Cleric can take along one person of his choice with him for every 5 levels.  Can cross planes with the spell, no error.  Can teleport from anywhere, but only to his specifically attuned shrine.  Can only have one shrine attuned to him at a time

Identify Spell:

1st level version: you can cast 1 spell per hour, it takes an hour to cast the spells, and it affects one item per spell, and reveals all functions of that item.

3rd level version: same as above but casting time is one round, can cast as many as you want back to back, and it affects one item for every 4 levels of the caster.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;316859Well, take 3.0, add the houserules I got (...)

HOLY.SHIT.

Talk about a specific answer!

Quote from: 1989;3168294E is . . . there's just no words for it.

We call it Dungeons & Dragons.

Quote from: 1989;316829From where I sit, 2E and 3.xE/4E are different hobbies.

Then get off the stupid chair.  

None of the retros require minis usage.  The source for cheap 2e books is eBay and you can get all the core books you want at bargain prices and most everything else [except box sets] are usually cheap.

If you like 2e, go play 2e.   The differences between OD&D, 1e, 2e and all the clones are nearly meaningless.   Any experienced DM can grab a module written in 1976 and use it with C&C with 10 minutes of prep.  

Here's a link to Mazes & Minotaurs.   It's free and if you like Old School RPGs, you may find it interesting.
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

Quote from: 1989;316853Does anyone else share my dislike of the physical representation thing, or are players like me more of an anomaly? If there are people like me here on this board, which system(s) are you currently playing?

I go back and forth on this.  Right now I'm in my "I hate minis" mood.  I currently run Labyrinth Lord and Mutant Future.  For a 2e fan though, I'd recommend Swords & Wizardry as closer to your desired experience.

T&T - it's combat is so abstract that it's the only game I can think of that can't be improved with minis.

Quote from: 1989;316836I could, but it's hard to get new people into the game when no rulebooks are easily available. The largest game store in Canada, the Sentry Box, has zero copies of 1E or 2E PHBs. I bought some used copies of 1E hardbacks, but I don't like the grubby feel of second-hand books. I photocopied them all, and put them into plastic sheets into a huge binder, instead.

Owning the books helps people feel more invested in the game, you know. At least, that's how I've seen it, in my limited experience.

Plus, I'd like to support the future. An in-print game at least has a chance for growth.

I haven't really played RPGs since 2000, or so. The OSR helps gamers take the old ways more seriously. Out-of-print = obsolete/inferior in a lot of gamers' minds. Newer is always seen as better.

I've trolled used book stores and amazon to find used 2E PHB.  I've got 5 now for players which is more then enough (and 1 1E PHB I found as well).  I've found the biggest in-game use for them will be to look up spells.  For me, the search for these books has been part of the fun

If I had to use a retro-clone, I'd use OSRIC without hesitation (though it is more a 1E clone).

Quote from: Spinachcat;316882Then get off the stupid chair.  

Actually, the social contract and game assumptions between editions (Old/1E/2E, 3/3.X, and 4E) are pretty drastic.  The most basic one is character creation.  

Old/1E/2E:  Random characters were assumed by the system.  

• Random 3d6 in-line character generation
• Random hit points at first level
• 11 was the average stat (and the average primary ability stat)
• Random starting wealth
• Few options are provided to the player for character generation save for picking a class the character qualified to become

3E/3.X:  Character options is the primary goal of this system.  

• 4d6 Stat generation, place them in the ability of your choice
• Max HP at first level
• Higher class primary stat (as the player has the option to place his best stat in it)
• Class selection is completely in the hands of the player
• Feats and Skill Points all for greater customization of characters

4E:  Balance is the name of the game in this system.  

• Point buy stat generation, predetermined hit points and healing surges (totally new).  
• 18 has become the new 11 for this system, as the math assumes that class X will have an 18 in the primary ability.  
• Feats and skills are still present (though skills lose skill points).  
• Characters have options in picking powers (at-will, encounter, daily).  
• All random elements of character generation have been removed (including starting wealth).

I would argue that the different rule sets for character creation suggest different assumptions on how the game should be played.  Quick and random character generation suggest rapid character turn over and less investment in an individual PC.  Detailed character generation (as the game has been moving to since its inception) suggest playing a character for a longer time and more player investment in individual PC.

More differences are exposed with combat rules, character advancement, power systems, expected power level of characters at any given level, death rules, etc.

For me, a different edition suggest a vastly different play style and game assumptions.

Quote from: jrients;316892For a 2e fan though, I'd recommend Swords & Wizardry as closer to your desired experience.

How so?  It's got the blank slate of OD&D.  2e was cleaned up AD&D.  It had a usable bard and weapon and nonweapon proficiencies standard.  S&W doesn't have many classes or a skill system.
 
Osric with your favorite bits of 2e added back in would be the best match.  Though I'm finding Basic Fantasy easy to modify and have added a simple proficiency system.
 
All of the clones and 20th century versions of D&D are about the same regarding use of miniatures.  They're not required unless you want to go that way.  I prefer miniatures in dungeon or similar environment where a 5' difference can determine whether or not you die in a trap.  For other situations, I like the flow of the game without miniatures and will just make a quick sketch of the surroundings or give pictures of the scene (found on the internet).

Quote from: 1989;316853Does anyone else share my dislike of the physical representation thing, or are players like me more of an anomaly? If there are people like me here on this board, which system(s) are you currently playing?

The Citadel greets all players of vintage games with open arms.  Click the link in my sig, and sign up!

Quote from: 1989;316853Does anyone else share my dislike of the physical representation thing, or are players like me more of an anomaly? If there are people like me here on this board, which system(s) are you currently playing?

I use miniatures only occassionaly, to give rough representations of the combatants in a large battle. I find the use of a tactical grid spoils my immersion and turns D&D into a tactical boardgame.

My most recent D&D game was a house-ruled Basic/Expert D&D.

Quote from: 1989;3168294E is . . . there's just no words for it. From where I sit, 2E and 3.xE/4E are different hobbies.

No, not really, from where I sit. 4e reminded me very, very much of my early experiences with D&D, which were with Holmes edition D&D and AD&D 1e. Yes, 4e is more complex. But it strips away a lot of the social interaction stuff that began to be added into the game with 2e, and which came into its own with 3e/d20. 4e cleaves more closely to what D&D was way back when - a way to resolve armed conflict, with other interactions left up to the players and DM. Early D&D was a step removed from a minis game, with a lot of artifacts of that origin evident in even the 1e books - inches for movement, for example, and the DMG has a lot of combat stuff clearly derived from minis games.

If anything, in my view, 2e is the aberration. It's what drove most of my group from D&D, and even I finally gave up on it as the original system's quirks and limitations began to grate, and the various additions to it from the mountain of splatbooks produced for it were inconsistent with each and other and often just flat-out screwed up. 3e/d20 provided consistency and a more flexible system, and (again, in my opinion, and I do have problems with some elements of it) 4e refocused on what made D&D fun in the first place.

Quote from: Haffrung;316901I use miniatures only occassionaly, to give rough representations of the combatants in a large battle. I find the use of a tactical grid spoils my immersion and turns D&D into a tactical boardgame.

My most recent D&D game was a house-ruled Basic/Expert D&D.

My group used minis about as far back as when we first started gaming (late 70s/early 80s). Well, not "minis" exactly, for the most part - we had a hard enough time scraping the money together for D&D books, let alone minis. We had a few here and there, but mostly we used whatever we had handy to represent where we all were during combat. Remember "marching order"? That was important to us back then.

Quote from: Spinachcat;316882We call it Dungeons & Dragons.

*opens can of worms*

I call it "not D&D", personally.