Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049012Social justice is a good thing.

The quest for Social Justice generally seems to do more harm than good. Treating societal ills pragmatically on a case by case basis seems to work better, especially when one does a utilitarian cost-benefit check on proposed actions.

For instance here in London they periodically reduce 'stop and search' because it has disparate racial impact. Then lots more people get stabbed to death, mostly the same people who were being disparately impacted by the policy, so they ramp up stop and search, and the stabbing rate falls. Then social justice advocates point out it has disaparate racial impact, and the cycle repeats.

Quote from: S'mon;1049043For instance here in London they periodically reduce 'stop and search' because it has disparate racial impact. Then lots more people get stabbed to death, mostly the same people who were being disparately impacted by the policy, so they ramp up stop and search, and the stabbing rate falls. Then social justice advocates point out it has disaparate racial impact, and the cycle repeats.

Free range, non-profiled stabbings must hurt less though, right?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1049009Maybe, but there comes a point where he needs to be held accountable for his actions regardless.

Umm, Lovecraft's been dead a while, you're not going to hold him accountable for anything.  Hold his reputation accountable?  How are you going to do that?

• Burn his books?
• Enact a law that says all HPL works must say HP Lovecraft, RACIST on the cover?
• Institute a massive database of all literary purchases and shame anyone who buys one into suicide?

Yes, I'm being purposefully ridiculous, but the idea itself is ridiculous.

Quote from: S'mon;1049030HPL's actions? What are you talking about? Just his writing?

Sorry, my point was that the mentally ill need to be held accountable for the damage they cause eventually, and in the process of making it my segue from HPL to modern SJWs got short circuited.

But that's actually a very illuminating question, as what was the actual result of his xenophobia? Did people die? Were people fired? Were people harassed for their beliefs? Of course not. So it's hard to argue that he should be held accountable for causing any harm.

Quote from: S'mon;1049043The quest for Social Justice generally seems to do more harm than good.

That's only because morally driven movements attract so many narcissists and sociopaths who thrive on their own self-righteousness. But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater, as there's plenty of injustice which needs to be addressed, and we shouldn't stop fighting just because Social Justice Warriors are trying to take over.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1049087Umm, Lovecraft's been dead a while, you're not going to hold him accountable for anything.  Hold his reputation accountable?  How are you going to do that?

• Burn his books?
• Enact a law that says all HPL works must say HP Lovecraft, RACIST on the cover?
• Institute a massive database of all literary purchases and shame anyone who buys one into suicide?

Yes, I'm being purposefully ridiculous, but the idea itself is ridiculous.

Reeducation camps, obviously.:rolleyes:

I'm not sure at what point performative pearl clutching about HPL became its own little sub-hobby within SF fandom. Maybe sometime in late 00's? Everyone always knew that Lovecraft racist and xenophobic, and this was often one of things that was talked about when discussing his work, but it didn't used to be the only thing.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1049095I'm not sure at what point performative pearl clutching about HPL became its own little sub-hobby within SF fandom. Maybe sometime in late 00's? Everyone always knew that Lovecraft racist and xenophobic, and this was often one of things that was talked about when discussing his work, but it didn't used to be the only thing.

I am not OK with calling the man a racist. A xenophobe? Sure. But what is a racist even? How many people of all creeds were so-called "racists" in his time, by popular definition?

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1049132I am not OK with calling the man a racist. A xenophobe? Sure.

That's pretty much my feeling too. There's no indication he subscribed to any Nazi style ideology, which is what the r-word implies.

Quote from: S'mon;1049133That's pretty much my feeling too. There's no indication he subscribed to any Nazi style ideology, which is what the r-word implies.

I find it amazing how up in arms SJWs are about Lovecraft but embrace Margaret Sanger... a true racist and Nazi sympathizer

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1048868Lovecraft's writing is actually quite shit. The world he paints is the ramblings of a deranged, lost person. Never really got on with that view of the world: nothing is ever unbeatable, there's always a way. Fuck, my own life is proof positive of that, will be even more so five/ten years down the line, guaranteed.

Lovecraft's wrote about cosmic horror, which is not the same as the horror of daily life. If the stars are right, then the world ends.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1048868The racism adds nothing to his work. Anyone saying that (anything even remotely near that) sounds like they, like Paula Deen, would love to travel back to a time when Blacks were the minstrel-prancing help at parties, serving peach cobbler to "well-heeled" folk via hands gloved in white. Cut that shit out.

I never said anything like that. If you read what I said in context, I was praising the anti-racist revisionist takes on his work where his racism was pointed out in the story and his monsters were revealed as innocent people persecuted by racists, cultists, and racist cultists. Just read The Litany of Earth if you want to understand my point.

Furthermore, it is possible write stories where the characters have different values than yourself without endorsing those values. If you are trying to write accurate historical fiction, then many of your characters have to hold repulsive values by modern standards (e.g. slavery, patriarchy, pedophilia, etc) or else your story will be inaccurate. (If you are not trying to be accurate, then all bets are off.)

The same applies to xenofiction. Three Worlds Collide is a good example of how alien morality can become.

Quote from: S'mon;1048877This "unbeatable hopelessness" thing sounds more like the revisionist modern version of the Cthulu mythos.

Lovecraft by contrast teaches us to hit Cthulu in the face with a boat.

Quote from: Brand55;1048879I see it as a bunch of PR, basically a motivational spiel that Cthulhu and his ilk use to keep their spirits up each time their plans are foiled. "Sure, we lost THIS time (and all those times before), but what are the odds we fail 10,308,482 times in a row?! We HAVE to win sooner or later!"

Were the stars right at the time or was Cthulhu sleepwalking, as it were? Was he even trying to attack the boat or did he want to give them a hug and a pleasant "hello"? Unlike Nyarlat, not every deity is actively malevolent. Are the cults actually losing every time a group of investigators stop them (then die or go crazy for their efforts), or were their attempts doomed to failure even without the investigators showing up? If we are trying to be consistent about cosmic horror, then neither side should be making any difference. I believe tvtropes calls what you guys are talking about "Lovecraft Lite."

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1049132I am not OK with calling the man a racist. A xenophobe? Sure. But what is a racist even? How many people of all creeds were so-called "racists" in his time, by popular definition?

I think he was racist but a very specific kind of racist that wouldn't have made as much sense to people outside New England Yankees at the time. But his writing definitely suggests he saw people of other races and even other white ethnic groups that were not derived from England as inferior. I don't think that means we can't read his stories and enjoy them. His racism is pretty quirky and rooted to a particular time and place (directed at anyone who can't trace their lineage to the mayflower). It was pretty obvious to me reading his stuff as a kid. But I was still able to understand that much of it was a product of when it was made, and that you can't expect every great work to abide by all our modern sensibilities). If you read anything historical, you regularly encounter things like that.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1049161I think he was racist but a very specific kind of racist that wouldn't have made as much sense to people outside New England Yankees at the time. But his writing definitely suggests he saw people of other races and even other white ethnic groups that were not derived from England as inferior. I don't think that means we can't read his stories and enjoy them. His racism is pretty quirky and rooted to a particular time and place (directed at anyone who can't trace their lineage to the mayflower). It was pretty obvious to me reading his stuff as a kid. But I was still able to understand that much of it was a product of when it was made, and that you can't expect every great work to abide by all our modern sensibilities). If you read anything historical, you regularly encounter things like that.

I get where you're coming from, but I still don't like the word. Its usage is mostly political.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1049161But I was still able to understand that much of it was a product of when it was made, and that you can't expect every great work to abide by all our modern sensibilities). If you read anything historical, you regularly encounter things like that.

Indeed. This is the key bit of subtlety that is lost on some folks lately. Instead, everything is either pure or impure, and the reader's job is simply to stamp any given work as one or the other.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1049161I think he was racist but a very specific kind of racist that wouldn't have made as much sense to people outside New England Yankees at the time. But his writing definitely suggests he saw people of other races and even other white ethnic groups that were not derived from England as inferior. I don't think that means we can't read his stories and enjoy them. His racism is pretty quirky and rooted to a particular time and place (directed at anyone who can't trace their lineage to the mayflower). It was pretty obvious to me reading his stuff as a kid. But I was still able to understand that much of it was a product of when it was made, and that you can't expect every great work to abide by all our modern sensibilities). If you read anything historical, you regularly encounter things like that.

You've very clearly also stated the difference between scholars and many of the pseudo-scholars that are present in academia, which is now a long time problem. I recall it again and again when I was at university in the early 80s and it permeates university now in the United States (long before the internet gave it a home).

Scholars can separate themselves from the work or study, and can admire the work but not the morals (or person) of the author or creator. It would be hypocritical for scholars to judge other scholars contrary to this view.

Scholars recognize that people are the products of their time, and at any time, there are ranges of belief and expression.

Lovecraft is a very easy target for the pseudo-scholar crowd.

Remember when Vampire was actually cool and interesting and not full of shitty metaplot and idiotic political controversies?

If so, then you might like this story, which has just started with more chapters on the way!

Appalachian Backyard LARP: It's Vampire the way it used to be and the way you like it!

https://archiveofourown.org/works/15314730/chapters/35531592

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1049182Remember when Vampire was actually cool and interesting and not full of shitty metaplot and idiotic political controversies?

If so, then you might like this story, which has just started with more chapters on the way!

Appalachian Backyard LARP: It's Vampire the way it used to be and the way you like it!

https://archiveofourown.org/works/15314730/chapters/35531592

I was only 5 in 1991; so no, not really

But I will read that. I've got such a soft spot for vampire fiction <3