Quote from: TJS;1048237Why then do this crowd want to believe the game is written to appeal to Nazis?  What do they really have against WW that they should twist things this badly to make this out?

I think many people don't seem to understand is that many on the left, truly believe that everyone on the right are literal Nazis.  Not just as a name, but actual goose stepping, sieg heiling, toothbrush mustache wearers. It's gone beyond demonizing your opponents by using hyperbole to the point of almost hysteria.

Quote from: JeremyR;1048239I think many people don't seem to understand is that many on the left, truly believe that everyone on the right are literal Nazis.  Not just as a name, but actual goose stepping, sieg heiling, toothbrush mustache wearers. It's gone beyond demonizing your opponents by using hyperbole to the point of almost hysteria.

Yes. It's always a tug-of-war of the slippery slope between left and right. Nobody wants to give any ground for fear of extending the sphere of influence of the other side, that's why you have to call them by their worst names.

There's racism in Lovecraft. You might find elements of it in what - 5% of his written pages? 10%? So why does so much of the discussion focus on that?
When discussion goes back to, yeah, I don't like the racism, let's not be racist, but let's focus on the good stuff, we'll be getting there. I do think that's happening.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1048194By all accounts he was a decent bloke and well liked (by people who enjoyed his work) it's obvious by the correspondence he had with them.

But he was a troubled man... It's no wonder he had a fear of strangers as he was mentally abused by his mother who pounded a lot of strange ideas into his head as a kid. It should also be noted they he was changing his beliefs as he got older. He did marry a Jewish woman.

and thats the thing all these loon detractors keep missing and instead incessantly screech "RACIST!". More to the point Lovecraft was A: a bit xenophobic, or at the very least fairly put off by customs and manners he was not used to. And B: in his writings and apparently his personal correspondence he more just did not like the reserved, sometimes surly, isolationist attitude of some immigrants. Which was more pronounced back then from accounts of family born back then, and hate to say it. But it still going on now-a-days. Perhaps moreso as various SJW groups push for increasing segregation and isolation of each culture by incessantly screeching "APPROPRIATION!"

And indeed as he got out and met people his views changed. Gosh. Just like a real human being might! That monster! :rolleyes:

Quote from: JeremyR;1048239I think many people don't seem to understand is that many on the left, truly believe that everyone on the right are literal Nazis.  Not just as a name, but actual goose stepping, sieg heiling, toothbrush mustache wearers. It's gone beyond demonizing your opponents by using hyperbole to the point of almost hysteria.

It doesn't apply here though.  They're not taking people with right wing beliefs and exaggerating it.

In this case they're making it up out of whole cloth.  They're not besmirching their political opponents - they're throwing their allies under the bus.

Which is why I'm curious why they're doing it.  Is it perhaps some sort of personal or professional jealousy related to the historical relations between the rpgnet moderation staff and Onyx Path?

Or is it just White Wolf's history of producing games with sexual content and metaphors running crash into this neo-puritan version of the left which is profoundly uncomfortable with any sort of sexual content at all?

Or is is because White Wolf games have always had something of left wing bent, but this particular crowd of American progressives are unable to handle anything coming from a left that doesn't precisely fit their narrative and their terms of reference?*  (They therefore feel they are unable to control).

*(Posters on RPGnet insist that the onus is on the Swedish developers - separated from the USA by geography, culture and native language to avoid any misunderstanding by being familiar with and using the terms of reference of their subculture- American progressives bear no responsibility for any misunderstandings that may arise.)

In any case, it's clear that the stuff with Zak S is personal - the political element there is clearly just a smokescreen.  This White Wolf business reeks of the same - which just has me wondering if there's some history here that would offer a simple explanation for the rabid dishonesty and bad faith.

Quote from: JeremyR;1048238It's a lot more complex than "xenophobia". After all, one of his best (and longest) stories, At the Mountains of Madness, is largely about how the Elder Things (which are extremely far from being human) are "men", because they are rational, intelligent, beings.

Similarly, the story many people point to as exhibiting his "xenophobia", The Shadow over innsmouth, the narrator at the end realizes that he's actually one of them, and maybe they aren't so creepy after all. Which sets the tone for a lot of later Deep One stories by Derleth and Lumley, where they are portrayed more as creep humans than anything else.

Subtlety is lost on these nuts.

Quote from: TJS;1048245It doesn't apply here though.  They're not taking people with right wing beliefs and exaggerating it.

In this case they're making it up out of whole cloth.  They're not besmirching their political opponents - they're throwing their allies under the bus.

Which is why I'm curious why they're doing it.  Is it perhaps some sort of personal or professional jealousy related to the historical relations between the rpgnet moderation staff and Onyx Path?

Or is it just White Wolf's history of producing games with sexual content and metaphors running crash into this neo-puritan version of the left which is profoundly uncomfortable with any sort of sexual content at all?

Or is is because White Wolf games have always had something of left wing bent, but this particular crowd of American progressives are unable to handle anything coming from a left that doesn't precisely fit their narrative and their terms of reference?*  (They therefore feel they are unable to control).

*(Posters on RPGnet insist that the onus is on the Swedish developers - separated from the USA by geography, culture and native language to avoid any misunderstanding by being familiar with and using the terms of reference of their subculture- American progressives bear no responsibility for any misunderstandings that may arise.)

In any case, it's clear that the stuff with Zak S is personal - the political element there is clearly just a smokescreen.  This White Wolf business reeks of the same - which just has me wondering if there's some history here that would offer a simple explanation for the rabid dishonesty and bad faith.

Why do you assume it has to be one or another of these? And even more, that it has to be the same for everyone in their crowd;)?

You also have to remember that TBP is a front for the old White Wolf and Onyx Path crown. And that they were going to attack anything new White Wolf put out. No matter what.

This type of venom and dishonesty is not anything new from that crowd. A bunch of entitled brats who believe that only they are the ones anointed to write for those properties. No matter who might actually own them.

New White Wolf committed a sin in their eyes. By choosing writers and other talent from outside of their sick little clique. And for them, that is heresy at the highest level.

One fact that will never change is this. That clique is the same group that ran White Wolf into the ground. And who sold it off to a MMO company that also ran it into the ground.

Also. Mark Rein-Hagan is also involved with Vampire 5th Edition. They actually went back to the original author and brought him back into the fold. So whatever Vampire 5th Edition was going to be. It certainly would not be built based on the input of those writers that drove the property to faiilure.

Quote from: AsenRG;1048252Why do you assume it has to be one or another of these? And even more, that it has to be the same for everyone in their crowd;)?

Well that's easily answered.

I'm not.  In no way did I imply that it was an exclusive list.  And of course they're not mutually exclusive options - surely I don't need to spell out things that are just common sense?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1048253You also have to remember that TBP is a front for the old White Wolf and Onyx Path crown. And that they were going to attack anything new White Wolf put out. No matter what.

This type of venom and dishonesty is not anything new from that crowd. A bunch of entitled brats who believe that only they are the ones anointed to write for those properties. No matter who might actually own them.

New White Wolf committed a sin in their eyes. By choosing writers and other talent from outside of their sick little clique. And for them, that is heresy at the highest level.

Yes I was wondering about that.  I just wasn't sure that there was any of that crowd still around or if they were ever involved in anything more than the exalted line..  I seem to remember a bunch of them were chased off because they got accused of harassment or something.  It's hard to keep track of all these forum dramas.

But that's probably the core of it.  Jealousy and sour grapes.

At least it fits.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1048253You also have to remember that TBP is a front for the old White Wolf and Onyx Path crown. And that they were going to attack anything new White Wolf put out. No matter what.

This type of venom and dishonesty is not anything new from that crowd. A bunch of entitled brats who believe that only they are the ones anointed to write for those properties. No matter who might actually own them.

New White Wolf committed a sin in their eyes. By choosing writers and other talent from outside of their sick little clique. And for them, that is heresy at the highest level.

One fact that will never change is this. That clique is the same group that ran White Wolf into the ground. And who sold it off to a MMO company that also ran it into the ground.

Also. Mark Rein-Hagan is also involved with Vampire 5th Edition. They actually went back to the original author and brought him back into the fold. So whatever Vampire 5th Edition was going to be. It certainly would not be built based on the input of those writers that drove the property to faiilure.

This guy gets it.

Even though I think V5 is going to suck, I may end up buying it just to spite RPG.net

Quote from: TJS;1048255Well that's easily answered.

I'm not.  In no way did I imply that it was an exclusive list.  And of course they're not mutually exclusive options - surely I don't need to spell out things that are just common sense?

Actually, you did imply it by beginning your sentences using "or".
But the question itself was a rhetorical one. In fact, it wasn't really a question, and more like an answer.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1048253You also have to remember that TBP is a front for the old White Wolf and Onyx Path crown. And that they were going to attack anything new White Wolf put out. No matter what.

This type of venom and dishonesty is not anything new from that crowd. A bunch of entitled brats who believe that only they are the ones anointed to write for those properties. No matter who might actually own them.

New White Wolf committed a sin in their eyes. By choosing writers and other talent from outside of their sick little clique. And for them, that is heresy at the highest level.

One fact that will never change is this. That clique is the same group that ran White Wolf into the ground. And who sold it off to a MMO company that also ran it into the ground.

Also. Mark Rein-Hagan is also involved with Vampire 5th Edition. They actually went back to the original author and brought him back into the fold. So whatever Vampire 5th Edition was going to be. It certainly would not be built based on the input of those writers that drove the property to faiilure.

Alas, that doesn't sound really far-fetched;).

If the original "Get Woke, Go Broke" crew hates this, I will give it a flip-through in the store.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1048267If the original "Get Woke, Go Broke" crew hates this, I will give it a flip-through in the store.

   I don't know, it feels more like the Revolution devouring its own to me. But I've never had more than a passing interest in the World of Darkness, and at the moment, I find my tastes leaning much more heroic and superversive than the market in general, much less the 'edge' promoted by WW/OP.

Quote from: Omega;1048244And indeed as he got out and met people his views changed. Gosh. Just like a real human being might! That monster! :rolleyes:

Yeah, God forbid people have a change of heart as they get older.:rolleyes:

I'm glad some of my views have changed over the years!