I fought the RAW, and the RAW won

ggroy · June 03, 2010, 09:19:44 AM

For everybody else, it's largely a crowd of smaller megaphones of varying sizes from the small rpg publishers to the loudmouth fan-dumb masses.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb

Aos · June 03, 2010, 10:28:16 AM

I like 4e just fine, but my boys had no problem grasping the core concepts of the older type of D&D. My oldest has read all my 0e and 4e stuff and HEX and a bunch of other RPG stuff too. Really, he seems to have grasped some of it better than I.
I'm guessing this is a guy who doesn't have any kids and thinks he knows kids. Nothing new there. I mean look at how short those Harry Potter books are.

Seanchai · June 03, 2010, 11:54:25 AM

Quote from: Aos;385617I like 4e just fine, but my boys had no problem grasping the core concepts of the older type of D&D. My oldest has read all my 0e and 4e stuff and HEX and a bunch of other RPG stuff too. Really, he seems to have grasped some of it better than I.

I'm not sure it's about grasping concepts, but rather presentation and organization.

Seanchai

Seanchai · June 03, 2010, 11:55:49 AM

Quote from: ggroy;385453If WotC is attempting to tap into the market of "lapsed D&D players" who haven't played in over 10 or 20 years, maybe releasing a 4E version of Greyhawk could be a way of getting their attention.

I'd be surprised. I'd bet their current efforts, Essentials, etc., aren't about getting people who haven't played in decades back into the fold but rather getting Pathfinder and players of previous editions of D&D to try 4e.

Seanchai

Seanchai · June 03, 2010, 12:00:46 PM

Quote from: Benoist;385390WTF? Why do you think the guy describes such an audience in the context of the inspirations to 4e and the changes that came with the new game system?

There's nothing in the question or response that even uses the word "inspiration." This has nothing to do with my supposed contrary nature and everything to do with your insistence on reading into every statement you come across some kind of support for your cause.

Seanchai

Seanchai · June 03, 2010, 12:02:55 PM

Quote from: ggroy;385392After a year-and-a-half to two years into a new edition, most likely these hardcore paying customers will be their remaining customers left bringing in revenue, for which they will be heavily dependent on until a new edition (or "mid" edition) is released.

I disagree. Or disagree to a degree. Farther into the product lifespan one goes, the more...outre the individual products become. Those are the ones that are more likely to draw the eye of a lapsed customer. For example, someone who isn't interested in another Monster Manual or Players Handbook might be tempted by a book of optional rules, new magic systems, a book about pirates, about drow, etc..

Seanchai

ggroy · June 03, 2010, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: Seanchai;385641I'd be surprised. I'd bet their current efforts, Essentials, etc., aren't about getting people who haven't played in decades back into the fold but rather getting Pathfinder and players of previous editions of D&D to try 4e.

If this is their intention, they'll have their work cut out for them.

Hardcore grognards of older AD&D editions, would be a tough sell.

A more receptive audience could possibly be the people who played 4E for several months back in 2008 or 2009, before dropping it.

The Pathfinder/3.5E crowd would probably be somewhere in the middle.

At times I wonder whether the 4E "Essentials" branding, is just "old wine in a new bottle". The only reasons I could possibly be interested in the "Player Essentials: Heroes of ..." books, would be if I'm playing 4E again and looking for new powers, builds, feats, etc ... which haven't been previously published.

Grymbok · June 03, 2010, 01:16:52 PM

Quote from: ggroy;385666At times I wonder whether the 4E "Essentials" branding, is just "old wine in a new bottle". The only reasons I could possibly be interested in the "Player Essentials: Heroes of ..." books, would be if I'm playing 4E again and looking for new powers, builds, feats, etc ... which haven't been previously published.

I'm lost at this point as to whether 4E Essentials is a new set of core books to replace the originals, a slimmed-down box set and supplements for it, or just the new trade dress for all 4E products.

But then I'm not a 4E player so it's not like I've been paying a massive amount of attention. Had just heard about the new Red Box as part of Essentials and assumed at first the rest of the line was outgrowths of that, but now it doesn't seem to be.

Abyssal Maw · June 03, 2010, 01:26:36 PM

For what it's worth, it's the middle one. It's a slimmed down boxed set and some compiled supplements (for example, the monster box is a massive collection of monsters, plus counters- and the dungeon tile boxes have compiled versions of previously released tilesets) to get new players started.

But it's all still 4th Edition.

JasperAK · June 03, 2010, 08:44:32 PM

Quote from: RandallS;385535LOL. A fighter in one of my early campaigns (say 1977 or so) lost his first magic sword and a expensive set of armor to the first rust monster these players had ever run into. The fighter trained his hirelings to hold off rust monsters with their 10 foot wooden poles while he would get out of his metal armor, grab a big club he kept just for rust monsters and beat the rust monster to death while cursing out the species in general. He would not let the party bypass a rust monster as his goal was to personally kill off the entire species. Everyone had great fun with it so it's hard to think that rust monsters are just there to ruin player fun as Mearls seems to think.

Now imagine all the 4e players now that have the unfortunate experience to encounter a rust monster.

"Yo guys, you remember that time when we fought that rust monster and I had to use a club for the rest of that fight. And then my sword reformed as if by magic."

Yeah, I can see how that can compete with all of the WOW players and their 80-level characters.

The Shaman · June 04, 2010, 02:31:49 AM

Quote from: RandallS;385535LOL. A fighter in one of my early campaigns (say 1977 or so) lost his first magic sword and a expensive set of armor to the first rust monster these players had ever run into. The fighter trained his hirelings to hold off rust monsters with their 10 foot wooden poles while he would get out of his metal armor, grab a big club he kept just for rust monsters and beat the rust monster to death while cursing out the species in general. He would not let the party bypass a rust monster as his goal was to personally kill off the entire species. Everyone had great fun with it so it's hard to think that rust monsters are just there to ruin player fun as Mearls seems to think.

Yeah, but when did you ever see something like this in a fantasy novel or movie, huh? This is not the stuff of Big Damn Heroes.

Great story, RandallS. This is one of the things that makes roleplaying games different from, and in my opinion often better than, a lot of the genre fiction out there.

StormBringer · June 04, 2010, 02:40:30 AM

Quote from: The Shaman;385749Yeah, but when did you ever see something like this in a fantasy novel or movie, huh? This is not the stuff of Big Damn Heroes.

I know you aren't actually advocating this position, but I wanted to chime in and add that if the current version allowed for play as a Medium Damn Hero, or even possibly a Medium or Big Regular Hero, I would be all over it. I think I speak for a number of other Vintage Games fans as well.

QuoteGreat story, RandallS. This is one of the things that makes roleplaying games different from, and in my opinion often better than, a lot of the genre fiction out there.[/SIZE]

Spot on.

crkrueger · June 04, 2010, 04:40:25 AM

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;385672For what it's worth, it's the middle one. It's a slimmed down boxed set and some compiled supplements (for example, the monster box is a massive collection of monsters, plus counters- and the dungeon tile boxes have compiled versions of previously released tilesets) to get new players started.

But it's all still 4th Edition.

So in other words, it's exactly what it says on the box, essentials...they went through the 30-odd corebooks and supplements and put together a version that would allow you to get the game going without a thousand dollar buy in?

Abyssal Maw · June 04, 2010, 08:23:37 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;385757So in other words, it's exactly what it says on the box, essentials...they went through the 30-odd corebooks and supplements and put together a version that would allow you to get the game going without a thousand dollar buy in?

Pretty much..

Here's the catalog. The Essentials stuff is on page 12. But then, keep turning and they explain each item. This is what goes out to retailers.

There are ten things in the entire line right now (and there has been language used that said this list wouldn't be added to or taken away from but let's completely discount this for now). For right now, this is what the entirety of the Essentials line is.

1 is a basic box set which covers 4 races and 5 classes up to level 3. That's the "red box"

1 is a compendium which sort of covers the entire game from a rules POV (movement, combat etc) but doesn't include the race and class content. Note- this is a book, not a box.
2 books contain the race and class content. If they expand the essentials, this is where it will happen, I bet. Because you can always have more races and classes! Well, I think so. hah.

1 box is the DMs kit which has some adventures, a 96 page basic DMs guide, a monster book, some counters and tiles, two adventures, some maps. The details are on page 22 of the same catalog.

1 box is the monster vault which has a collection of monsters, and then counters that represent each of the monsters.

3 boxes are big tile collections.

the last item is a set of polyhedral dice.

RandallS · June 04, 2010, 08:31:45 AM

Quote from: The Shaman;385749Yeah, but when did you ever see something like this in a fantasy novel or movie, huh? This is not the stuff of Big Damn Heroes.

While I know you aren't advocating this position, I still have top point out that I have read fantasy stories where one of the main characters had an experienced with a particular monster in their early life and therefore had some uncommon reaction (near phobia to "wipe them out") to that creature from then on. Of course, this is mainly in fantasy written before 1985 or so.