SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

I fought the RAW, and the RAW won

Started by Benoist, May 28, 2010, 07:01:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Benoist

Quote from: RandallS;384477I knew a guy back in the 1970s who almost always won at the a set piece/point balanced ancients battle, but had a great deal of trouble winning in a historical scenario -- as they weren't balanced.



"Here you can see young Viking lads playing a tactical game called hnefetafl.  (Chess probably didn't arrive in the British Isles until later--as far as I know the Lewis chessmen are the first evidence for chess we have.)"

"The game's quite instructive about Viking modes of thought.  It's played between two unequal sides (black has twice as many pieces as white), because who fights when it's fair?  Also, a piece isn't taken unless it's surrounded front and back, which leads to the formation of shield walls."

- Quoted from PapersAndPaychecks, on the K&K Alehouse.

Tommy Brownell

I'm just saying, I've generally had more fun in games with random character generation (which are practically, by definition, less balanced) than ones where everyone started off with the same number of beans to count.

AD&D2e, Deadlands Classic, Marvel FASERIP, Marvel SAGA (which had two character generation options, one which was mostly random and one which was completely random)...Savage Worlds is one of the few exceptions I've had so far, and even then there's a nice random character option (fan-made) for Deadlands, and an official one for fantasy games.

Fun > Game Balance, and some people just don't care if they're "weaker" than others or what have you.
The Most Unread Blog on the Internet.  Ever. - My RPG, Comic and Video Game reviews and articles.

crkrueger

What a sad pathetic fuck that Martell guy must be.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

The Shaman

#18
I tend to write a fair number of house rules, but usually they either clarify or expand on the rules-as-written, or they are there to add flavor. Only rarely do I feel the need to fix something I think of as 'broken' in the original design.

I've noticed over the years that the more complicated and inclusive the system, the more likely I am to feel the need to house rule one or more core mechanics.
On weird fantasy: "The Otus/Elmore rule: When adding something new to the campaign, try and imagine how Erol Otus would depict it. If you can, that\'s far enough...it\'s a good idea. If you can picture a Larry Elmore version...it\'s far too mundane and boring, excise immediately." - Kellri, K&K Alehouse

I have a campaign wiki! Check it out!

ACS / LAF

The Shaman

Quote from: Benoist;384488*snipped*
Vikings fucking rule.
On weird fantasy: "The Otus/Elmore rule: When adding something new to the campaign, try and imagine how Erol Otus would depict it. If you can, that\'s far enough...it\'s a good idea. If you can picture a Larry Elmore version...it\'s far too mundane and boring, excise immediately." - Kellri, K&K Alehouse

I have a campaign wiki! Check it out!

ACS / LAF

RandallS

Quote from: Benoist;384488"The game's quite instructive about Viking modes of thought.  It's played between two unequal sides (black has twice as many pieces as white), because who fights when it's fair?  Also, a piece isn't taken unless it's surrounded front and back, which leads to the formation of shield walls."

This sounds like a fun game. Google turned up this page with more info.
Randall
Rules Light RPGs: Home of Microlite20 and Other Rules-Lite Tabletop RPGs

Benoist

Quote from: The Shaman;384494Vikings fucking rule.
Bet your ass they do! :D

Quote from: RandallS;384506This sounds like a fun game. Google turned up this page with more info.
Awesome!

Pseudoephedrine

Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin\'s Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don\'t want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don\'t care about the forests, they\'\'re the fuckin\' wood mafia." -Anonymous

DeadUematsu

Designers don't always know best but frankly game masters don't know shit. The number of game masters whose house rules I've experienced and were actual improvements can be counted on one hand. So any indicator that people are moving away from houseruling and running by the RAW is personally a good thing.
 

StormBringer

Quote from: DeadUematsu;384529Designers don't always know best but frankly game masters don't know shit. The number of game masters whose house rules I've experienced and were actual improvements can be counted on one hand. So any indicator that people are moving away from houseruling and running by the RAW is personally a good thing.
Show us on the doll where the DM touched your character.

Seriously, what could you possibly find appealing about RPGs?  After all your rants, you really should do a thorough search of BGG and just find some really complicated Euro-game and enjoy that.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

DeadUematsu

#25
Yes, an evil DM touched my penis and now I hate everything RPGs stand for.

Now, will you leave me alone or is anything that isn't GM fellatio grounds for multiple page Stormbringer rage?
 

Windjammer

One of many occasions where I simply ignore TheRPGSite and read a waaaay more instructive debate on Enworld. E.g., this posting:

Quote from: KMIMO, this is the crux of the thing:

"And the problem is, once Balance became a major part of my process, in terms of creating RPG materials, I lost the ability to turn it off."

It's a tragedy.

It's like someone who studied English because they loved stories no longer being able to just friggin' tell a story.

It's like someone who studied Film because they loved movies no longer being able to just go to a friggin' movie.

As so often in life, I find the words of Kurt Vonnegut to be transcendentally liberating on the general topic: "I think it can be tremendously refreshing if a creator of literature has something on his mind other than the history of literature so far. Literature should not disappear up its own arse, so to speak."

Cross out "literature" and replace "rules," (or, really, any other creative process -- it works for 'em all!) and you have one of the big maxims by which I create.

Ari Marmell is a very good D&D designer. The fact that he can't surrender all his learned over-thinking about balance and caution in order to spice up his own bleedin' home game, like there's Balance Police in his own brain, is a testament to the ability of intellectualization to absolutely crush innate, productive creativity. The creativity of those high school years, of D&D's target audience, of wildly unbalanced fun.

I think it's really sad that his home games are barren of the rich, verdant fields of off-the-cuff ruling and tweaking that are the hallmark of any great D&D campaign, the thing that makes D&D yours, and not someone else's, whatever balance quirks or fudging blah or unintended consequences happen.

Seems like he's come to a similar conclusion, since that post ends with a sort of longing for innocence ripe for a dorky version of William Blake.

This is the tension between cold, sterile, keen, efficient logic and rampant, wild, destructive, creative chaos. I think it's sad that Ari's home games have lost, for the moment at least, the dangerous wilderness.

This is D&D. We're D&D players. The dangerous wilderness should be what we seek out.

And when there's no more dangerous wilderness, it's usually time to retire, at least for a time, to that keep you liberated so long ago.
"Role-playing as a hobby always has been (and probably always will be) the demesne of the idle intellectual, as roleplaying requires several of the traits possesed by those with too much time and too much wasted potential."

New to the forum? Please observe our d20 Code of Conduct!


A great RPG blog (not my own)

Ghost Whistler

This is the most bizarre thread i've ever read on roleplaying.

There has to be some balance otherwise we might as well go play Exalted.

Balance doesnt mean Elves can't be better than humans, but that each has their own checks and balances and can allow their players to interact with the system equally otherwise someone's going to get bored playing.
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

TheShadow

So this dude

* was having lots of fun doing unbalanced shit without realising it was "broken"...oh the horror!

* once he started designing professionally he lost the impetus to be creative in his own games;

*once he started down the road of "balance", he couldn't turn it off.

Feel sorry for him losing his mojo but it has zero to tell me about having fun playing RPGs.
You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. But none of them move the clouds.

- Dave "The Inexorable" Noonan solicits community feedback before 4e\'s release

Fiasco

For me, game balance is a flawed goal. A balance of fun is what both the rules, GM and Players should aim for.  After all, the perfectly balanced game would be giving players identical characters and identical equipment.  How boring would that be?

How much do I houserule?  Depends on the system and what I do with it. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.  I don't analyse it, I just change what I feel needs changing.