Quote from: Cyclotron... you are, in my very personal experience, the first to actually express such an opinion online.

:bow:

You need to stay in more.  

All that fresh air and bike riding is making you miss the great geek debates of our time.

Quote from: CyberzombieI care about the games

I guess I don't have any game lines I care about.  I care about D&D but only in a broader abstract sense in that whatever fantasy RPG we're playing it is D&D in my mind - and that has very little to do with any version of the game that may or may not be in print.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson. . .with the game industry gone, game shops would be gone

I don't really buy new stuff, but the idea of those stuffy little shops, smelling of must and with narrow aisles between teetering piles of games and magazines and comics being gone does pluck at something nostalgic in me.

More seriously, that would be a downside to those people who make their living selling the stuff.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhile the REAL industry (which is Wizards of the Coast) is in no real danger of "collapsing" in the short term, the serious and real problem is that the intellectual and later financial collapse of TSR and the reign of the Swine in the 1990s basically crippled gaming, leading untold thousands of gamers to leave the hobby in frustration with the kinds of games being made at the time, and failing monumentally ever since then to create products that would attract young teenagers to gaming.  Today, we're playing the price for that, as gaming as a hobby grows increasingly old in demographic, gains an increasing proportion of lawncrappers as more and more normal human beings leave the hobby (or never enter it in the first place), and games are increasingly made to appeal not to younger gamers or people who actually PLAY, but to "collectors" who obsessively buy, read, and comment on the games but don't actually use them as games.

Blah, blah, blah.  Do you ever say anything else?

QuoteIts well and good to say "I don't give a shit about the industry", but then you'd better be happy when you get to being a lonely 40 year old gamer with your books and no one to game with in a radius of 500 miles from your home.

RPGPundit

If you can't find a gamer, you make gamers out of people who you think would be into it.

Quote from: el-remmenI guess I don't have any game lines I care about.  I care about D&D but only in a broader abstract sense in that whatever fantasy RPG we're playing it is D&D in my mind - and that has very little to do with any version of the game that may or may not be in print.

A lot of my fun with the hobby comes from pouring over new games and new rules sets, figuring out ways to use them, and then figuring out ways to change it/make it my own.  So it's probably not quite in the way you would be thinking I care about the games.  

I find the idea that getting new blood into gaming is somehow crippled by the aging demographic.  I have a friend (okay, fine, aquaintance) who has a son and regualarily brings him down to various LARPs that are around.  The thing is, we'll get our kids/nephews/younger relatives into gaming if we're excited enough about it and are willing to deal with their inherent munchkiness until they out-grow it.

Also, I don't particularily care about the industry.  In fact, I don't really care about specific game lines either.  I just like shiny things.

Quote from: el-remmenI don't really buy new stuff, but the idea of those stuffy little shops, smelling of must and with narrow aisles between teetering piles of games and magazines and comics being gone does pluck at something nostalgic in me.

More seriously, that would be a downside to those people who make their living selling the stuff.

Plus, my favorite shops of all time weren't anything like that.

One was a huge store that catered to genre fans in general - it had everything from movie posters to scripts to movies to sports cards to old books to minis to models to game stuff. Oh yeah, it was a full comic shop, also, a decent-sized one.

Another was a bustling place with a really large space set aside for game tables. On Fridays and Saturdays, the place was as crowded and loud as any club or bar. Great service, with all the employees looking professional in uniform clothing (red shirts (NOT T shirts) and who went out of their way to be friendly. Great selection of new and used games. Plus they had an actual sound system which played satellite radio.

The last one was much like the first place, but smaller. The advantage it had over the bigger place is that it had space for game tables, and the owner himself was one of the people running games regularly. It's the place where I last had a chance to game, with a pretty good, solid group of people, most of whom were in their late 20s into their 40s.

It's places like that that make me hope the industry itself doesn't collapse completely. Places like that might survive on other stuff, but I don't know how much space they'd be willing to devote to gaming tables if they weren't selling games.

Quote from: el-remmenAm I the only one that feels this way?

Me and my friends, and millions of other people would still get together and play their games and make up their rules and search the web for cool shit to use and my gaming would go on much as it has for years and years.

It's seems to me the longer I game, the more I realize just how insignificant the industry is to the me.Now don't get me wrong, I relly dig some of the stuff that comes out of the industry be it the big or small players, but I also get a hell of a lot of stuff, from visiting blogs, forums etc. The stuff I get may not be as polished(I use the word loosely) as the industry stuff but as a gamer it has proved(at times) invaluable.

There is a lot of stuff be it rules, settings etc that has gone down from the dawn of gaming. There is more than enough stuff out there to build upon or there is more than enough sources be it books, movie etc to start a fresh with new games, all catered to the individual tastes of their creators - sure the industry could do this, but I'm sure if there was no industry gamers would do it themselves.

As for the whole bringing in new blood to the hobby. I have always felt that the reality is that although marketing and such could play a part, I think the onus on bringing in new players is placed squarely on the shoulders of gamers.

The thing is I have never really brought in players to support the industry. I have brought in players for a variety of reasons such as to replenish the slaughter house, because someone has expressed an interest in my hobby, I think a person depending on the books they read(normally fantasy/scifi - but this is not really an issue - I recently brought in someone new to the crew because she was obsessed with pulp comics and obscure kungfu movies) etc.

The most important reason I bring in people to the crew is because I want them to join in the fun (or I think they may dig the whole scene). Now the industry wants new people in so they can sell their games - which is only natural, but I sometimes wonder if peoples belief in the industry  to draw in fresh bood in is a little misplaced. I could be wrong they could be doing a great job, and I'm admit I'm not to hip about the going ons in the industry.

As to the problem of the aging gamer demographic - I honestly don't know. What I would hope is that the new people recruited into the group are hopefully spread out within a diverse age group -it certainly is within my case, but I realize I have no constructive ideas as to how to encourage younger people getting into the hobby. Perhaps here is where the industry is needed. But I'm doubtful. I think if individual gamers reach out towards a diverse age group that would be more effective in bringing in new blood to the hobby - but that's just my take.

Lastly, in my expereince they will always be people who game. Depending on how successful they are at recruting new players, the numbers may fluctuate, but even though there is no industry there will never be no players - or at least I hope that there will never be no gamers. Sorry for the long post.

Regards,
David R

I love contrasting declarations like these with the handwringing in other threads about running into annoying people at the table. That's because, y'see, those are a large proportion of the folks who are left when you don't get new people buying books. Ergo, saying you don't care about what happens is basically tatamount to saying you don't care that you will be cursed to interview strangers for your table, put up posters and search online instead of gaming with your friends, and run into annoying people who you would never, ever meet unless you had a hobby in common.

Quote from: shooting_diceI love contrasting declarations like these with the handwringing in other threads about running into annoying people at the table. That's because, y'see, those are a large proportion of the folks who are left when you don't get new people buying books.

I don't know man. I always thought that those annoying people were a minority blown out of proportition by internet chatter. Even if they weren't how does getting more people to buy books change this. It just seems there would be more encounters of annoying people at the table.

QuoteErgo, saying you don't care about what happens is basically tatamount to saying you don't care that you will be cursed to interview strangers for your table, put up posters and search online instead of gaming with your friends, and run into annoying people who you would never, ever meet unless you had a hobby in common.

Actually all the people I have introduced to gaming have been complete strangers to this hobby. I'm speaking from personal experience here nothing else. I mean the men/women I have brought in, some of them are just content to play and read some of the groups books, while others have formed groups of their own -bought stuff, but normally borrow some of our stuff.Most have been people I have just met not exactly strangers but not friends either- what i thought would interest them about gaming is stuff like,movies etc. I just thought they would dig gaming and invited them for a session. Some dug it others didn't.

I know people like me are not exactly good for the industry. But I was posting based on personel expereince, and really thats all it was. I love gaming but I don't really think my efforts to introduce new people would stop if there was no industry or my enthusiasm for the hobby. Thats what I was getting at.

Regards,
David R

dealing with people i can't stand isn't worth it.  if people annoy me that much, i don't need to game.  i like (at least most of) the people i game with, and i enjoy interacting with them.  if that stops, i stop going.  if i come into another set of folks i can enjoy myself with later on, then i'll have a new gaming group.  

Quote from: el-remmenAm I the only one that feels this way?

Depends. The RPG "industry" is pretty much a waste of time. I've met a number of cool people in gaming, but even more losers. The goofy politics and high school-level social scene is just pointless. To paraphrase a much smarter man than I, the politics in gaming are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

The bigger industry (toys & games) is just a collection of businesses, distributors, and retailers. I like cool game stores. I like companies that do good games. But I don't think there's any value in individual gamers obsessing over the entire mess as a whole.

Just play games and have fun.

Quote from: mearlsJust play games and have fun.

And that is why I love you even without having read (or even seen) Iron Heroes.

Or it could be nearly every time I have played in a game you ran you have had my character grow an extra head.

Quote from: el-remmenAnd that is why I love you even without having read (or even seen) Iron Heroes.

Or it could be nearly every time I have played in a game you ran you have had my character grow an extra head.

ANOTHER DM that does that?  Jeeze.  I think some DMs have an Ettin fetish...

Quote from: CyberzombieANOTHER DM that does that?  Jeeze.  I think some DMs have an Ettin fetish...

If you had two Suicide Girls' heads I'd be all for it!