Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2021, 07:41:38 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 27, 2021, 01:20:34 PM
I was arguing against Shasarak's conflating of leveling with archetypes. There is a clear difference between the two, as you say. You're exactly right. What works for a story doesn't work for a game, and vice versa. That's why I'm annoyed by seeing so many writers using some variation of leveling as a crutch rather than writing good stories. Leveling wasn't created to help build stories, it was created to give players a feeling of accomplishment. The same designers who designed leveling also played games where it was normal for PCs to constantly die and be replaced. That isn't remotely conducive to telling a coherent story. Games are not stories, and vice versa. That's why D&D fiction doesn't resemble gameplay at all.

There's a subgenre of Shonen anime that's built around the concept of continually leveling up. Dragonball Z is a classic example (my power level is over 9000!), Demon Slayer is a modern one, and One Punch Man parodies it. It's fascinating, because it's a storytelling structure that was clearly borrowed from tabletop RPGs, although second-hand via video games instead of being directly inspired. And it works quite well, at least for the audience (teenage boys looking for macho power fantasies). But even a clearly derived element like this is highly modified from its origins. For instance, the leveling up on those stories follows predictable dramatic beats, instead of being something that's earned and accounted for by players. It's very different both in implementation and purpose.

Yeah, it works well for its audience. I'm not that audience.

Number crunching Shonen with power levels is made to sell toys to young boys.

Its largely trash writing and power levels have only made anime worse from a storytelling perspective. And I don't mean some hoity toity 'Art' way. I mean fights are less engaging when its one side throwing its numbers against another until the MC says 'Friendshiiiiip' and then their numbers go up.

I think a better example of 'Zero to hero' is something like Avatar the last airbender. The characters go from struggling against 5 mooks or so, to taking down airship armadas, but it doesn't feel inorganic or the characters just throwing their powers around.

QuoteGandalf was a 5th-level magic-user.

Gandalf was astral deva with 1 level of fighter.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 27, 2021, 08:32:17 PM

Quote from: Pat on February 27, 2021, 07:41:38 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 27, 2021, 01:20:34 PM
I was arguing against Shasarak's conflating of leveling with archetypes. There is a clear difference between the two, as you say. You're exactly right. What works for a story doesn't work for a game, and vice versa. That's why I'm annoyed by seeing so many writers using some variation of leveling as a crutch rather than writing good stories. Leveling wasn't created to help build stories, it was created to give players a feeling of accomplishment. The same designers who designed leveling also played games where it was normal for PCs to constantly die and be replaced. That isn't remotely conducive to telling a coherent story. Games are not stories, and vice versa. That's why D&D fiction doesn't resemble gameplay at all.

There's a subgenre of Shonen anime that's built around the concept of continually leveling up. Dragonball Z is a classic example (my power level is over 9000!), Demon Slayer is a modern one, and One Punch Man parodies it. It's fascinating, because it's a storytelling structure that was clearly borrowed from tabletop RPGs, although second-hand via video games instead of being directly inspired. And it works quite well, at least for the audience (teenage boys looking for macho power fantasies). But even a clearly derived element like this is highly modified from its origins. For instance, the leveling up on those stories follows predictable dramatic beats, instead of being something that's earned and accounted for by players. It's very different both in implementation and purpose.

Yeah, it works well for its audience. I'm not that audience.

I would be very surprised if anyone on this board was part of its audience. As I mentioned, it's aimed at a very specific demographic.

Well, I found a "Lazy DM" video on the topic of CR that I really liked.

Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2021, 05:22:43 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on February 25, 2021, 02:44:44 PM
...

It seems that zero to hero is a hard habit to break.

It's not a bad habit, it's a feature. Perhaps the most important feature among the many that contributed to D&D's success. That's because it's a player rewards system, and a skill point here, a skill point there isn't as compelling as leveling up in D&D. ...

It is not a bad habit in and of itself.

Works great for D&D.

But a Competent protagonist doing heroic stuff is also an Archetype. Which is why Zero to hero does not fit all genre's.

A more competent character and a more gradual XP power curve in RPG's is my personal preference.

But I do fully recognize that I am very much in the minority in this.

There is no arguing against zero to hero's success as a gaming structure for sure.

Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2021, 05:22:43 PM
Though there's definitely an argument against infinite scaling. Perhaps the biggest problem is pragmatic: It's hard to balance across an infinite range. E6 recognized that in the d20 system, and capped the game at the sweet spot, allowing lateral ...

Yes, E6 proved that the core d20 system could be adapted to a narrower power range and be perfectly fine.

I don't really care about classes and levels. But for me, the scaling caused by D&D style HP bloat is a bit off putting when applied to genre's that it doesn't really fit.

Like the d20 Conan, of even AiME. Both did decent jobs trying to get the tone of their respective IP's across in the game. But keeping D&D's standard HP bloat imposes a certain playstyle dynamic.

If I had to guess, they both wanted to be as 'Edition compatible' as possible. But IMHO they would have been better served genre wise by having the system cap HP at a given level, and tuning the rest of the game to match.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 02, 2021, 05:23:50 PM
But a Competent protagonist doing heroic stuff is also an Archetype. Which is why Zero to hero does not fit all genre's.

A more competent character and a more gradual XP power curve in RPG's is my personal preference.

But I do fully recognize that I am very much in the minority in this.

There is no arguing against zero to hero's success as a gaming structure for sure.

It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

Starting out as highly competent also works, but requires a different game structure. A good example is Marvel Super Heroes, which mechanically engages players using a constant flow of rewards (karma), which are highly responsive to the players' immediate actions.

A completely different model is something like GURPS, which doesn't provide any similar, strong incentives. Instead, it relies other elements of the game, like perfectly emulating the concept in your head, all the vehicles-like fiddliness, and getting the mechanics out of the way to focus more on the story than the gamist incentives. (Yes, the last two examples contradict each other -- you can run the game both ways.)

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Name one myth or legend that uses zero to hero in the same way as a leveling system.

In Fantasy Hero (at least in 4th edition Hero starting with 150 point characters), there is a related but different dynamic to leveling.  With those point totals, the characters are reasonably competent but still have a lot of things they want to improve or buy.  The typical FH reward is 2-5 points, mostly on the lower end except for longer sessions.  Most things the characters want at first cost about that many points, or maybe a few more.  It's more incremental, but the increments are still meaningful.  Basically, every session, I get the next thing I want or I get a major chunk of the points needed to get it next time.   In some ways, it is a bigger dopamine hit than earlier D&D with its several sessions to get the next level.

You could do zero to hero in FH by starting around 25-50 points, but would need to change the points gained over time.  It's a slog starting that low at first and then up around the 250 point level, the character is hardly moving.   With the rules as written, there's no similar rush starting at 50 or at 250--almost a different game.

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Name one myth or legend that uses zero to hero in the same way as a leveling system.

Wheel of Time

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:56:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Name one myth or legend that uses zero to hero in the same way as a leveling system.

Wheel of Time

You idiot, you forgot Jesus!  Totally Zero to Hero - starts off being able to do nothing and by the end can heal the sick, turn water into wine and walk on water.

By the end he has so many hit points it takes him all day to die.

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:56:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Name one myth or legend that uses zero to hero in the same way as a leveling system.

Wheel of Time

Yes, that's one of those traditional stories that's been been passed down orally since the world was new and computers were big boxes.

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 07:02:06 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:56:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Name one myth or legend that uses zero to hero in the same way as a leveling system.

Wheel of Time

Yes, that's one of those traditional stories that's been been passed down orally since the world was new and computers were big boxes.

Sorry that 80 million copies sold does not reach your high standard of something no one has heard of.

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 07:04:25 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 07:02:06 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:56:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:44:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 06:13:55 PM
It's not about genre, though. Leveling is a game mechanic that incentivizes players, and doesn't really match any traditional genre or narrative structure. You can draw parallels to something like the hero's journey, but the parallels are very weak and not terribly useful except for borrowing a few trappings.

I am trying to think of one way that Zero to Hero does not match exactly with the leveling system.

Maybe no Training montage leveling system?  Help me out here Pat

Name one myth or legend that uses zero to hero in the same way as a leveling system.

Wheel of Time

Yes, that's one of those traditional stories that's been been passed down orally since the world was new and computers were big boxes.

Sorry that 80 million copies sold does not reach your high standard of something no one has heard of.

Still not a traditional myth or legend, which is what we were talking about.