Full story on my blog. But I'm sure I'd meet understanding, here;).
http://aflashingbladeandpanache.blogspot.bg/2018/04/i-committed-refereeing-sin-seeking.html
Sounds fine, game moves forward and everyone has fun.
Quote from: AsenRG;1033500Full story on my blog. But I'm sure I'd meet understanding, here;).
http://aflashingbladeandpanache.blogspot.bg/2018/04/i-committed-refereeing-sin-seeking.html
You know, we had a kind of fumbling session ourselves yesterday. It's me and a new player and my brother GMing. He did a great job last session, but this one was just bleh. Everyone (even the monsters) were rolling poorly, making the fights a sad sucession of boring misses, and reaction and skill rolls were similar.
I've got no problem with meta game systems to shake up a session like that.
Quote from: AsenRG;1033500Full story on my blog. But I'm sure I'd meet understanding, here;).
http://aflashingbladeandpanache.blogspot.bg/2018/04/i-committed-refereeing-sin-seeking.html
Your sins are forgiven my child. I prescribe 5 Hail Gary's and 5 of Lord (Crom)'s Prayers.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1033501Sounds fine, game moves forward and everyone has fun.
That was the idea. But seems like a slippery slope to me;)!
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1033513You know, we had a kind of fumbling session ourselves yesterday. It's me and a new player and my brother GMing. He did a great job last session, but this one was just bleh. Everyone (even the monsters) were rolling poorly, making the fights a sad sucession of boring misses, and reaction and skill rolls were similar.
I've got no problem with meta game systems to shake up a session like that.
Yeah, something like this:).
Except that the meta-resource is already part of the system, we just tend to forget it in play.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033525Your sins are forgiven my child. I prescribe 5 Hail Gary's and 5 of Lord (Crom)'s Prayers.
Thank you, padre:D!
It seems I've been temporary banned from TBP again. Again for weaponizing smilies (though even the mods slipped that it's not the main reason). Hope that would move Lord Crom!
(And if it doesn't? To hell with him:D!)
1) Crom laughs at your bitter tears of remorse, little man.
2) Is what you (plural) did in line with the rules? Then no sweat.
3) Fun trumps all. If somebody's genuinely stuck, letting them flounder is no fun for anybody. This is why I eliminated the old "if you're not there you can't speak" rule.
I always worry about bandwith. In the real would we each have constant, continuous, natural, accurate stimulus coming at us as wide as the universe and as fast as light.
In a game you just have my voice my words my posture and face and a few other things. If they miss a nuance it's not there fault, its not my fault (hopefully) it's part of the limitations of our hobby.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;10335451) Crom laughs at your bitter tears of remorse, little man.
He's a cruel god, indeed:)! But he gives you all you need.
Quote2) Is what you (plural) did in line with the rules? Then no sweat.
It is;).
Quote3) Fun trumps all. If somebody's genuinely stuck, letting them flounder is no fun for anybody. This is why I eliminated the old "if you're not there you can't speak" rule.
Well, I expected no less from you, Glorious General:D!
Quote from: Headless;1033551I always worry about bandwith. In the real would we each have constant, continuous, natural, accurate stimulus coming at us as wide as the universe and as fast as light.
In a game you just have my voice my words my posture and face and a few other things. If they miss a nuance it's not there fault, its not my fault (hopefully) it's part of the limitations of our hobby.
Well, my players tend to catch the nuances about as much as they do IRL. So I'd say we have a good communication channel;).
And if they miss a nuance, I tend to remind, but this wasn't the case, here.
Quote from: AsenRG;1033538Thank you, padre:D!
Ah, I am no padre, that is a completely different William (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Christopher), to whom I could never live up. :-P
Does your game world have slightly-interventionist subtle powers or meddling spirits or fates or norns or anything like that?
Maybe, since this player tends to forget to use her meta-resource all the time anyway, you could ask her for permission to invent a covert in-game source of good fortune as you deem it's wanted and just automatically quietly fold it into your GM'ing? e.g. decide she has a patron ancestor spirit or something that sometimes manipulates events in her favor, and GM that via the mechanic.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033772Ah, I am no padre, that is a completely different William (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Christopher), to whom I could never live up. :-P
Well, all I can say is, it was a honest mistake;)!
Quote from: Skarg;1033844Does your game world have slightly-interventionist subtle powers or meddling spirits or fates or norns or anything like that?
Yes of course:)!
QuoteMaybe, since this player tends to forget to use her meta-resource all the time anyway, you could ask her for permission to invent a covert in-game source of good fortune as you deem it's wanted and just automatically quietly fold it into your GM'ing? e.g. decide she has a patron ancestor spirit or something that sometimes manipulates events in her favor, and GM that via the mechanic.
You know, that's actually a rather good idea, because her ancestors are VERY MUCH the kind that would be meddling:D!
I think the hero point for a clue is completely fine. It's a minor thing in the course of a whole session, and got things moving. Totally fine.
Quote from: Psikerlord;1033913I think the hero point for a clue is completely fine. It's a minor thing in the course of a whole session, and got things moving. Totally fine.
You're just saying this to cheer me up:D!
And yes, it's a rule in quite a few systems. It's just that I don't, as a general rule, use that kind of rules, you know what I mean? To me, it's like the difference between having rules, say, fighting, intimidation, or dirty tricks, and actually having your character use that kind of actions;).
Quote from: AsenRG;1033500Full story on my blog. But I'm sure I'd meet understanding, here;).
You are forgven, or you are going to Gaming Hell forever. Your choice.
Honestly, I can't see what you did that was wrong.
Quote from: soltakss;1034258You are forgven, or you are going to Gaming Hell forever. Your choice.
Honestly, I can't see what you did that was wrong.
I choose forgiveness! Wait, where's the catch:D?
Fun certainly trumps all. Usually, an important part of the fun is effective emulation and immersion. However, the ultimate test is whether you 'got away with it' in terms of the players' reactions.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1035143Fun certainly trumps all. Usually, an important part of the fun is effective emulation and immersion. However, the ultimate test is whether you 'got away with it' in terms of the players' reactions.
OK, I'll admit I didn't quite expect this reaction. But I think we can all agree that fun trumps all, indeed;)!
Also, I'm glad to report that the player managed the investigation to her usual stellar standards after that incident. This being
my variant of Erisa, she's now looking for a man that's hiding in "mafia land":D!
Well, the other side of the coin is that if you engage in certain types of bad habits, you may get away with it once or twice, but the tendency will be that at some point you'll be getting yourself into problems.
Quote from: AsenRG;1035448OK, I'll admit I didn't quite expect this reaction. But I think we can all agree that fun trumps all, indeed;)!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1035760Well, the other side of the coin is that if you engage in certain types of bad habits, you may get away with it once or twice, but the tendency will be that at some point you'll be getting yourself into problems.
I think this is an important thing to recognize about a lot of when we talk about what I will call 'big gaming theory' -- even if we have Big Damn Opinions about what is and isn't a good idea (particularly about things like railroading, story-gaming elements, DM fudging, etc. etc. etc.) or the like, we are mostly talking about what we consider
best practices, based on the opinion that consistently violating them will either eventually fail/be noticed/otherwise end up with dissatisfied players.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1035808I think this is an important thing to recognize about a lot of when we talk about what I will call 'big gaming theory' -- even if we have Big Damn Opinions about what is and isn't a good idea (particularly about things like railroading, story-gaming elements, DM fudging, etc. etc. etc.) or the like, we are mostly talking about what we consider best practices, based on the opinion that consistently violating them will either eventually fail/be noticed/otherwise end up with dissatisfied players.
Yes, exactly. Whether accident or intentionally, a GM can get away with a lot of stuff for a little while. Just not all the time.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1035760Well, the other side of the coin is that if you engage in certain types of bad habits, you may get away with it once or twice, but the tendency will be that at some point you'll be getting yourself into problems.
That's why I dislike such actions as I had to take. Some things, like fudging for a perennial example, do spoil the game for me, even with one application:).
But it was the right decision in this case, as the continuing campaign shows;).
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1035808I think this is an important thing to recognize about a lot of when we talk about what I will call 'big gaming theory' -- even if we have Big Damn Opinions about what is and isn't a good idea (particularly about things like railroading, story-gaming elements, DM fudging, etc. etc. etc.) or the like, we are mostly talking about what we consider best practices, based on the opinion that consistently violating them will either eventually fail/be noticed/otherwise end up with dissatisfied players.
Sometimes yes, that's how it works.
And sometimes, even once is too much, and you're taking a risk every time you'redoing it. Depends on who you're playing with.
So it's best to stick to the best practices, if you ask me:D!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1036060Yes, exactly. Whether accident or intentionally, a GM can get away with a lot of stuff for a little while. Just not all the time.
And then there are the people that are convinced they can get away with it all the time.
I keep suspecting that it's actually more of a case of their players not minding;).
Quote from: AsenRG;1036216And then there are the people that are convinced they can get away with it all the time.
I keep suspecting that it's actually more of a case of their players not minding;).
That sounds like they are getting away with it then.
QuoteSo it's best to stick to the best practices, if you ask me!
Yes and no. I say that because we're talking about a game. I work at the intersection of healthcare, information technology, and law. Not only do you have best practices, but they are well documented, you run the practices (as documented) by the handy-dandy legal team, get their stamp, and then do not deviate from those practices what-so-ever. TTRPGs are not this. They are games. They exist to be fun endeavors. As Pundy points out, fun trumps all. The reason to stick to best practices is because they tend to work against shortcuts one might otherwise be strongly incentivized, but eventually will end up causing a lack of fun event to occur. However, if your players don't mind (or are at least very forgiving in the 'oh look, your shortcut finally caught up with you, alright, let's all pretend that never happened and figure out how to move on' kind of way), maybe not. Regardless, your specific 'transgression' seems most like someone on a diet explaining how Saturday afternoon gaming is their 'cheat day' where they can have chips and sugared soda -- you don't really need to convince me that it is (or isn't) wrong -- the scale won't lie at your next weigh-in.
Quote from: AsenRG;1036216And then there are the people that are convinced they can get away with it all the time.
I keep suspecting that it's actually more of a case of their players not minding;).
Or of players in a situation of having to choose between mediocre RPG campaigns or none at all.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1037012Or of players in a situation of having to choose between mediocre RPG campaigns or none at all.
Possibly, but since that doesn't apply to my players, I fail to care about the distinction;)!
Yeah, it's very alien to me too. Here there's such a vast and interconnected community of gamers, that no one is in a game because of feeling they have no other choice.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1037634Yeah, it's very alien to me too. Here there's such a vast and interconnected community of gamers, that no one is in a game because of feeling they have no other choice.
How can you have no other choice if you're in a vast and interconnected gaming community?
Quote from: AsenRG;1037669How can you have no other choice if you're in a vast and interconnected gaming community?
Um, I think you misread. I was saying that no one is in a game from lack of choice. If you don't like your gaming group here, you go looking for another one.
Of course, not everyone can get in the game they really want to get into above all the others. I have a huge backlist of people who want to game with me.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1037868Um, I think you misread. I was saying that no one is in a game from lack of choice. If you don't like your gaming group here, you go looking for another one.
Of course, not everyone can get in the game they really want to get into above all the others. I have a huge backlist of people who want to game with me.
OK, I've misread you, indeed!
Granted, I just don't agree that nobody is in a game from lack of choice. But that's off-topic;).y
Quote from: AsenRG;1037972OK, I've misread you, indeed!
Granted, I just don't agree that nobody is in a game from lack of choice. But that's off-topic;).y
I was saying that no one in Uruguay is in a game from a lack of choice. In other places, where there's less of a network of gamers, it could certainly be different.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1038141I was saying that no one in Uruguay is in a game from a lack of choice. In other places, where there's less of a network of gamers, it could certainly be different.
About Uruguay, I don't know. But since you didn't specify, I assumed you're talking about "the modern world" or something:).
Quote from: AsenRG;1038798About Uruguay, I don't know. But since you didn't specify, I assumed you're talking about "the modern world" or something:).
What did you think "Here" meant?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1039097What did you think "Here" meant?
USA, actually, due to all your talk about US politics:).
And since I've heard quite a bit of this same complaint from US gamers, I had no option but to disbelieve what you said;).
Well, now you know.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1039372Well, now you know.
Yeah, and those were 3 posts that added nothing. And now I've written the 4th one:).
Just let this thread die already, Pundit, it did serve its goal;)!
Quote from: AsenRG;1039375Yeah, and those were 3 posts that added nothing. And now I've written the 4th one:).
Just let this thread die already, Pundit, it did serve its goal;)!
Then stop responding.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1039992Then stop responding.
I seldom stop responding to threads that I have created;).
Quote from: AsenRG;1033500Full story on my blog. But I'm sure I'd meet understanding, here;).
http://aflashingbladeandpanache.blogspot.bg/2018/04/i-committed-refereeing-sin-seeking.html
Very late here, but I read the story.
I guess my only dispute is what the "sin" is. To me it isn't really the use of a fiddly point to manipulate the world. It seems more a case of a scenario design where that particular event had to happen so that everything else could continue.
And that shit happens sometimes.
Nowadays I sometimes look at situations like this and wonder. In this situation the player had a resource. It wasn't a critical resource. It wasn't even a resource the player was particularly concerned with or would even have otherwise used. Then you as GM asked the player to expend that negligible resource so events could move on. Essentially the gaming hook was that the player had to lose some points since they weren't inherently playing well enough to move forward on their own. Yet, that "punishment" of forcing the player to pay that resource wasn't really consequential, nor was it really your intent to "punish" the player. The expenditure of the resource was nothing more than an excuse for you to hand out the information you wanted to hand out anyway and move events forward.
So, why have the illusion of it costing the player anything? And then the question gets a lot more complex.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1040227Very late here, but I read the story.
I guess my only dispute is what the "sin" is. To me it isn't really the use of a fiddly point to manipulate the world. It seems more a case of a scenario design where that particular event had to happen so that everything else could continue.
And that shit happens sometimes.
Nowadays I sometimes look at situations like this and wonder. In this situation the player had a resource. It wasn't a critical resource. It wasn't even a resource the player was particularly concerned with or would even have otherwise used. Then you as GM asked the player to expend that negligible resource so events could move on. Essentially the gaming hook was that the player had to lose some points since they weren't inherently playing well enough to move forward on their own. Yet, that "punishment" of forcing the player to pay that resource wasn't really consequential, nor was it really your intent to "punish" the player. The expenditure of the resource was nothing more than an excuse for you to hand out the information you wanted to hand out anyway and move events forward.
So, why have the illusion of it costing the player anything? And then the question gets a lot more complex.
That would have been true if it was a scenario:).
It wasn't. She was following her character's goal to ingratiate herself to the noblewoman. She didn't want to give up on it, but didn't have ideas about how, and we were wasting time.
So it cost her some Hero die to get some dirt on the main witness to the murder. (I knew he's got a secret date, but I didn't want the player to find out. I was myself able to think of other approaches as well).
And usually I don't care whether the characters succeed, because failing in their plans also gets us somewhere. But failing to make a plan is just boring.
Quote from: AsenRG;1040034I seldom stop responding to threads that I have created;).
I forgot you were the OP. Fair enough.