Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 07:15:12 AM
The author being lesbian is a talking point if it mattered, but I have the full game....and it doesn't matter here.  Its not some sort of disguised propaganda.  I didn't even want to bring it up because I know this forum is not kind to that sort of thing.  In this instance, I wouldn't worry about activism.  This game doesn't even have a short blurb in the beginning about any sort of "satanic panic" disclaimer, or violence, or drug use, ect.  Palladium Books still put a disclaimer for Violence and Supernatural elements.

No, on the hidden activism angle, ShadowDark is NOT a problem.

As for marketing, that was well done.  But, who thinks marketing a game correctly is a a problem?

I don't care and was unaware that the author was a member of BLT Sandwich Club. My issue isn't political. It's that shills need to realize that "She's a great games designer for a woman." Is not the high praise they think it is. It's not political. It's demeaning to her and demeaning to people who just want a quality game. Shadowdark is okay, not great. It would not have recieved the attention it did if the game designer did not have undisclosed relationships with various content creators or was a neckbeard games designer like most of them are.

Quote from: King Tyranno on February 08, 2024, 11:05:35 PM
Nearly all the praise I've seen for Shadowdark seems to boil down to "it's a good game. And a girl made it! Isn't that great? Isn't she a special girl!"

If I was a designer I'd feel highly demeaned by the OSR clique who I thought were shilling my game due to my talent. Can't the shills just admit they shilled an okay but highly derivitive OSR game because they were infatuated with it's designer instead of the game itself?

Read the main Shadowdark post on here and you'll see that more folks are excited about the slimmed down 5e experience, the compact writing, and the evocative art over "EL OH EL GURL WROTE IT OMG!"  The crowd that only looks at her for her sex and who she shares a bed with are the minority.  People bring that up as a counterpoint to certain discussions and then it's left alone.   Her work , Shadowdark, speaks for itself.

Kelsey had a very successful writing career in 5e modules before shadowdark and her pesonality, charisma, and friendliness goes a helluva long way than grognards screeching over 1E vs. OSE and who is better for marketing.


Also, the classes were left as basic as possible for other authors to come behind and make more. Kelsey did not want to bloat out the main book with classes and races and just kept it simple.   

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 07:15:12 AM


As for marketing, that was well done.  But, who thinks marketing a game correctly is a a problem?

'

Read the main shadowdark thread and you'll see dozens of posters on here who think that her successful marketing campaign was the second coming of satan and an evil conspiracy by the v-tubing RPG cabal.

Weak-willed? I don't know anything about this other than you have disposable income.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 09, 2024, 09:35:33 AM
Also, the classes were left as basic as possible for other authors to come behind and make more. Kelsey did not want to bloat out the main book with classes and races and just kept it simple.

That makes me sad.  I like games with a lot of good classes in the core book. 

Case in point, my brother and his group are playing Basic Fantasy, but just the core book only.  The GM doesn't like to keep referencing supplement after supplement books, so core book content only. 

I want to play a Paladin.  I can't in their game. 

Some people are like that.  They view supplement books as lesser products.  After all, if it so great, why wasn't it in the core book?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 08, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.

I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking). 

Are there any more  classes, like Paladin or such?

The Zines all have new classes and setting info and an adventure.
Zine #1 is haunted forest themed and adds Witches, Warlocks and Cursed Knights
Zine #2 is desert themed and adds Desert Rider, Pit Fighter and Ras-Godai Assassins
Zine #3 is Viking themed and adds Seer and Sea Wolf

There was a Ranger and a Bard class distributed digitally to backers. Don't know if they were made publicly available in some way. These were designed as part of a stretch goal reached during the funding.

Quote from: rgalex on February 09, 2024, 11:44:14 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 08, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.

I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking). 

Are there any more  classes, like Paladin or such?

The Zines all have new classes and setting info and an adventure.
Zine #1 is haunted forest themed and adds Witches, Warlocks and Cursed Knights
Zine #2 is desert themed and adds Desert Rider, Pit Fighter and Ras-Godai Assassins
Zine #3 is Viking themed and adds Seer and Sea Wolf

There was a Ranger and a Bard class distributed digitally to backers. Don't know if they were made publicly available in some way. These were designed as part of a stretch goal reached during the funding.

Zines aren't a feature IMO because it just means you don't have everything in one place.  OSE does the same thing, which is annoying there as well, though I understand the rationale. 

But again, everyone has their preferences.  Just like her background in 5e is absolutely a negative for me.  But I'm not the target audience.

Their 'Zines seem to be legit.  They sell them right on their website. 

https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine

Maybe I'll pay that extra money for additional content that could have been in the main book, but wasn't.

Wait.   Selling stuff.   Extras.  Additional content sold separately.  Huh.  Almost as if they're trying to make more money. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 01:00:01 PM
Their 'Zines seem to be legit.  They sell them right on their website. 

https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine

Maybe I'll pay that extra money for additional content that could have been in the main book, but wasn't.

Wait.   Selling stuff.   Extras.  Additional content sold separately.  Huh.  Almost as if they're trying to make more money.

The zines are awesome and worth it.   They've also incorporated an online Character Generator here:
https://shadowdarklings.net/

God forbid a company to make any money in a Capitalist society. 


Christ the amount of handwringing and bitching over this product is off the charts.

Some people consider having a small number of core classes in an RPG book, a feature; and not a problem.  Let the DM decide, if he wants to allow book #2; at his table.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 09, 2024, 04:41:45 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 01:00:01 PM
Their 'Zines seem to be legit.  They sell them right on their website. 

https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine

Maybe I'll pay that extra money for additional content that could have been in the main book, but wasn't.

Wait.   Selling stuff.   Extras.  Additional content sold separately.  Huh.  Almost as if they're trying to make more money.

The zines are awesome and worth it.   They've also incorporated an online Character Generator here:
https://shadowdarklings.net/

God forbid a company to make any money in a Capitalist society. 


Christ the amount of handwringing and bitching over this product is off the charts.

Its because a lot of people (myself included) think the game is overhyped.  Just like any good thing, you have to bring it back to reality with some ribbing. 

I have said a couple of times the game is good.  I'm not going to give it the title of, "Best Game, Ever" because it is just good, not great.  It has flaws.

And those zines are a bit overpriced, so I disagree with you there.  I can buy complete games for less than those Zines are each sold for.

Quote from: Persimmon on February 09, 2024, 08:27:56 AM
As OSE has also demonstrated, marketing & presentation are huge.  Simply reorganizing old content and jazzing it up with an appealing aesthetic can move serious product, which is part of the deal here as well, though again I'm less impressed with the design and organization of Shadowdark than most.

I really can't get into OSE. To be honest, it's the art. To me, it sucks. I'd rather go with B/X or AD&D.

Shadowdark does have cool art, and is pretty basic in its presentation. I like what I have read so far.

But I am liking Dragonslayer better. So sign me up to shill for Gillespie's game, and maybe I will consider Shadowdark at some point in the future. About the only thing Shadowdark has that I like better than Dragonslayer is rolling for spells, crit success and failure with spells, and spell mishaps.

I've never been a huge fan of fire-and-forget spells, and I like that take on it. Yep, big fan of DCC for a while as well, but their latest changes in the new printing are kinda meh. Will stick with my 8th Printing for that.

Quote from: Dropbear on February 10, 2024, 12:36:43 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on February 09, 2024, 08:27:56 AM
As OSE has also demonstrated, marketing & presentation are huge.  Simply reorganizing old content and jazzing it up with an appealing aesthetic can move serious product, which is part of the deal here as well, though again I'm less impressed with the design and organization of Shadowdark than most.

I really can't get into OSE. To be honest, it's the art. To me, it sucks. I'd rather go with B/X or AD&D.

Shadowdark does have cool art, and is pretty basic in its presentation. I like what I have read so far.

But I am liking Dragonslayer better. So sign me up to shill for Gillespie's game, and maybe I will consider Shadowdark at some point in the future. About the only thing Shadowdark has that I like better than Dragonslayer is rolling for spells, crit success and failure with spells, and spell mishaps.

I've never been a huge fan of fire-and-forget spells, and I like that take on it. Yep, big fan of DCC for a while as well, but their latest changes in the new printing are kinda meh. Will stick with my 8th Printing for that.

Aesthetics are both important and very obviously a matter of personal taste.  Greg Gillespie has gone the record stating that he can't stand OSE's artwork.  And he hates digest-sized books.  Personally, I've got mixed feelings about OSE art.  Some of it's quite good and evocative, but other pieces are too whimsical and childlike for my taste.  I think the Shadowdark art feels like it's trying too hard to be edgy, like a lot of Goth kids in high school.  I prefer the consistency of Gillespie's products, which are, of course, designed to evoke early 80s TSR.  On the other hand, I do quite like the digest-sized books, especially if I'm lugging stuff somewhere outside of my house to go play.

I also like the idea of some chances of failure, corruption, etc. with spells, but not quite to the level of DCC, since we found it can get real slow at times.  One tweak I've used in Castles & Crusades is that if the spell is resisted by a foe's spell resistance or they roll a nat 20 on their save, the caster must make a Charisma check or suffer a spell failure using the MERP tables.  Adds a bit of danger and flavor, but not quite as complex.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 11:26:44 AM

That makes me sad.  I like games with a lot of good classes in the core book. 

There are more classes but they are paid DLC.

I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.

For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.

As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

As a GM I want those same things so I don't have to come up with them. Guess I'll have to make my own...

Never again, I can understand not including a bazillion races and classes in the core book, but come on! Basic downtime shit?

Also, the random  generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.