I am Wizards' Bitch [4e discussion]

Kyle Aaron · August 17, 2007, 04:13:17 AM

Quote from: Tyberious FunkAs has been mentioned, prep time is a bitch and combat is way too slow...

I assumed those were features, not bugs. Prep time gives you something to do between sessions, and if you don't like combats why are you playing D&D?

And if these things are problems, then why have so many people bought the game over these years?

My theory is that they're tired of writing splatbooks and want something to do

One Horse Town · August 17, 2007, 06:11:40 AM

Another thing to remember with this announcement (and the possible bringing forward of the release date) is that there are a couple of big licenses coming out next year. Although probably not on the d&d scale, they could have taken a sizeable chunk out of WotC sales (say 5-10%?) if they got on the ground and running before 4e. 40k is a big release and so is Traveller (although that's only just been announced, so take my ponderings with a grain of salt). Now, 4e will be in direct competition with those games and not coming out 6 - 12 months later with a possible loss in ground.

RPGPundit · August 17, 2007, 06:28:40 AM

Quote from: One Horse TownAnother thing to remember with this announcement (and the possible bringing forward of the release date) is that there are a couple of big licenses coming out next year. Although probably not on the d&d scale, they could have taken a sizeable chunk out of WotC sales (say 5-10%?) if they got on the ground and running before 4e. 40k is a big release and so is Traveller (although that's only just been announced, so take my ponderings with a grain of salt). Now, 4e will be in direct competition with those games and not coming out 6 - 12 months later with a possible loss in ground.

Unless they were UNBELIEVABLY more successful than anyone could possibly imagine, neither of these would be even of any statistical significance to Wizards, D&D is just so vastly above anything else in terms of sales that there's no conceivable way any other license or RPG could possibly affect them in such a way that they'd feel the need to release their product earlier than originally planned.

RPGPundit

One Horse Town · August 17, 2007, 06:53:09 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditUnless they were UNBELIEVABLY more successful than anyone could possibly imagine, neither of these would be even of any statistical significance to Wizards, D&D is just so vastly above anything else in terms of sales that there's no conceivable way any other license or RPG could possibly affect them in such a way that they'd feel the need to release their product earlier than originally planned.

RPGPundit

You might be right, but even taken conservatively, these things could very much matter to wizards. No release of 4e next year and lets say (conservatively) that the new licenses take 2% of wizards market share away between them. Release of 4e next and an increase of 5% (conservative) market share for wizards next year. That's a 7% swing. Nothing to sneeze at for a company of wizards size.

'Course, it's all speculation, but 7% matters even to wizards.

Edit: Also, the real money will be in the DI, if it's any good.

estar · August 17, 2007, 07:56:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditUnless they were UNBELIEVABLY more successful than anyone could possibly imagine, neither of these would be even of any statistical significance to Wizards, D&D is just so vastly above anything else in terms of sales that there's no conceivable way any other license or RPG could possibly affect them in such a way that they'd feel the need to release their product earlier than originally planned.

RPGPundit

Not just that, only a handful of other companies have access to the mass market like WoTC. So if by some miracle some new product starts hammering D&D in game stores and the internet there will still be the problem of finding space within the mass market.

estar · August 17, 2007, 08:02:19 AM

Quote from: Kyle AaronAnd if these things are problems, then why have so many people bought the game over these years?

A popular game can still have problem areas. From being involved in writing several RPG products, 3.X Stat blocks are a total pain in the ass to deal with. It is one of the worst things I had to do in 20 years of technical writing. For a DM just doing this for fun, I doubt many are making up stats blocks by hand. Probably uses one of several shortcuts to avoid this. (Computer, re-use, store-bought module, abbreviated stats, etc)

Rob Conley

P.S. Yes writing and laying out an adventure module is a form of technical writing.

Kyle Aaron · August 17, 2007, 08:09:59 AM

From the point of view of a company whose purpose is to make money, if a product has problems but still makes money, then the product does not have problems.

And if they're genuine problems, why are they only being looked at now? Even Mongoose puts out a second edition within a year when its first edition is a fuckup.

RPGObjects_chuck · August 17, 2007, 08:12:29 AM

Quote from: One Horse TownAnother thing to remember with this announcement (and the possible bringing forward of the release date) is that there are a couple of big licenses coming out next year. Although probably not on the d&d scale, they could have taken a sizeable chunk out of WotC sales (say 5-10%?) if they got on the ground and running before 4e. 40k is a big release and so is Traveller (although that's only just been announced, so take my ponderings with a grain of salt). Now, 4e will be in direct competition with those games and not coming out 6 - 12 months later with a possible loss in ground.

4e will not be in competition with anything as I understand the word. Wizards will have its usual crazy market share.

THe fact that 4e will fall under the OGL again will prevent any "lesser" licenses* from gaining a serious foothold.

Chuck

*I dont mean lessser in terms of quality.

shewolf · August 17, 2007, 08:59:35 AM

4e is gonna be great for brick-and-moarter stores.

Not so good for online retailers. I wish we had a flgs around here. I don't want to give my money to B&N or Borders.

jrients · August 17, 2007, 09:09:27 AM

Quote from: J ArcaneThat assumes that every last damn NPC needs a write up. The Monster Manual is there for a reason. The NPC tables are there for a reason. Fucking use them. It's not the game's fault that you decided to do more work than intended.

Are you seriously suggesting that the game was designed with the idea that the DM do less exacting prepwork than in earlier editions? The fact that NPCs are built out of the same set of moving parts as PCs surely suggests otherwise.

Blackleaf · August 17, 2007, 10:25:33 AM

More details...

Quote from: James WyattAnd it is a rise, let me tell you. I'm so excited about Fourth Edition I can barely contain myself. Running the Delve in our booth yesterday was awkward—I saw so many of the things I have grown to dislike about 3E come into play. Oh, the poor rogue's useless against all these plants and elementals. Oh, the poor dwarf didn't confirm his crit. Oh, look at all the people forgetting about attacks of opportunity (especially at reach) and getting pummeled as a result. I can't say too much about it, but you can be sure it's not just grapple that got an overhaul.

I'm playing a ranger in Bill Slavicsek's weekly game. I'm not sure I've played a ranger since the one who stood on top of a pile of gnoll bodies while my magic-user friend killed Yeenoghu in the early days of AD&D. I'm having a blast.

I'm playing a paladin in Andy Collins' monthly game. I love paladins—I seem to keep writing about them in my fiction. (Check out "Blade of the Flame" in the Tales of the Last War anthology for a concise example, or read my other novels!) But I've never liked playing a paladin. At one point during the design of this game, I made a paladin for a game where we were testing out Dungeon Tiles, and it made me so sad. I could smite evil once. Then I was done—down to swinging my sword once per round. I wasn't sad when I died. I love my new paladin.

One Horse Town · August 17, 2007, 10:29:38 AM

Interesting Stuart. Looks like maybe it's the Bard and Sorcerer that has been gobbled up by feat trees then. All the other classes seem to be present and correct (actually, i haven't seen mention of the Druid or Monk yet either).

Sosthenes · August 17, 2007, 10:37:25 AM

Sounds suspiciously like SWSE...

Warthur · August 17, 2007, 10:54:55 AM

Quote from: One Horse TownInteresting Stuart. Looks like maybe it's the Bard and Sorcerer that has been gobbled up by feat trees then. All the other classes seem to be present and correct (actually, i haven't seen mention of the Druid or Monk yet either).

I dunno, I think the Ranger and Paladin could very easily be modelled under 4E as special instances of the Fighter - just pick the relevant set of options at character gen and whenever you level up and you're on the way.

Alternately, they might be specialised Fighters who don't get to pick from the full range of Fighter powers but have special power lists of their own to pick from.

One Horse Town · August 17, 2007, 10:57:55 AM

Quote from: WarthurI dunno, I think the Ranger and Paladin could very easily be modelled under 4E as special instances of the Fighter - just pick the relevant set of options at character gen and whenever you level up and you're on the way.

Alternately, they might be specialised Fighters who don't get to pick from the full range of Fighter powers but have special power lists of their own to pick from.

Well, Ranger is definitely in. Seen a screen shot of the DI character page with a Ranger on it as well as 2 Fighters.