A little over a year is "a long ways away"?  That seems dubious.  And the clear implication is that it would not be out in 2008.  Sure there's room for backpedaling from that statement, but the fact that there needs to be backpedaling suggests deception.

All I have to say is if its Saga D&D, I'm back on board the D&D train.

Quote from: jrientsA little over a year is "a long ways away"?

It is for me.

Well, if it's any consolation to those annoyed about splashing out on the new edition books, this announcement will probably cost me somewhere in the region of $1600 in lost work. Fingers crossed that it won't, but i expect it will. :deflated:

From icv2.com

QuoteWhile there are changes in play (such as incorporating "epic-level play," with 30 levels instead of 20), they are described as "evolutionary" rather than "revolutionary."  Other changes include new power sources, changes in resource management, and new encounter design, and more clearly defined monster roles.  Changes will speed play, make the game easier to learn, and make DM-ing easier.  Concepts for 4th Edition gameplay were tested in the new Star Wars RPG, and the Book of 9 Swords.

What the company does describe as revolutionary is the method of product delivery, which will incorporate online play for the first time. WotC is incorporating online components into the game through a new Website, DnDInsider.com.  Each paper product will include codes to unlock digital versions on the site for a "nominal" activation fee.   Players will also be able to use DnDInsider tools and access regular new content similar to the material that was previously released in Dragon and Dungeon magazines (see "Interview with Liz Schuh") for a monthly fee (as yet undetermined) greater than the old subscription price, but less than a MMORPG subscription.  Magazine-style content will be added to the site three times a week and compiled into digital "issues" monthly.

I'll be surprised if large numbers of people  sign up for a monthly subscription that's *higher* than a Dragon mag subscription to get the same content but not in print form and access to some web tools they could find elsewhere on the web, and usually for free.

Edit:  Look to all the unsuccessful pay-for-content webcomic sites as an example of how willing people are to pay for content online.  Most newspapers have given up on the idea as well.  Most sites have moved to an advertising or affiliated merchandise model to generate revenue.

This doesn't sound like a revolutionary idea at all.

Quote from: jrientsA little over a year is "a long ways away"?  That seems dubious.  And the clear implication is that it would not be out in 2008.  Sure there's room for backpedaling from that statement, but the fact that there needs to be backpedaling suggests deception.

If i were the person responsible for the spin on this, I wouldn't backpedal. I would just ignore the controversy, because it isn't going to last, not in any big way, anyway. A few people who have some sort of ego investment in the whole release date/ WOTC honesty thing will remain bitter- an even smaller number of those people will actually be angry enough to not by WOTC product for a while; a really, really small number of angry people will turn their back on WOTC forever, but that is going to happen anyway with the release of a new edition, regardless of the release strategy.

Funny, I just returned here from the icv2 page you quote.

The more tidbits of info are released, the l4mer the entire digital aspect of 4E sounds to me.

Even so, there's still the, well, actual game.

Except that in addition to buying a book -- people are being asked to sign up for a monthly subscription for virtual content.

Quote from: jrientsA little over a year is "a long ways away"?  That seems dubious.  And the clear implication is that it would not be out in 2008.  Sure there's room for backpedaling from that statement, but the fact that there needs to be backpedaling suggests deception.

I am not disagreeing with you. However lets turn it on its head. Suppose that Wizards was sincere with its February announcement. Supposed WoTC was working on a SAGA like D&D since 2005 but planning a more leisurely pace.

What could have changed it mind?

This is an interesting question because it could indicate some type of rush job in progress. And rush jobs have an impact on quality.

However I feel the snarky corporate attitude has some merit. Given the wierdness of this whole Gleemax thing. The fact they were withdrawing licenses mere months after the February announcement.

My final theory on the whole matter rest on what the D20 publishers know. If it turns out that the major D20 publishers were informed in late spring/early summer. Then perhaps it was an attempt at avoiding the 3.0 to 3.5 problem. This has some support from the behavior of Necromancer and other companies in terms of their release schedule. Looking at the various company message boards after Gen Con might be illuminating.

Quote from: estarI am not disagreeing with you. However lets turn it on its head. Suppose that Wizards was sincere with its February announcement. Supposed WoTC was working on a SAGA like D&D since 2005 but planning a more leisurely pace.

What could have changed it mind?

Perhaps SAGA was a greater success than they anticipated?  I don't know, or couldn't, as numbers aren't available, but it's a possible explanation.

The rules "improvements" in SAGA were met with a reception good enough to convince them that it would offset any "bad blood" based on the release-date-announcement-issues or the I-just-bought-3.5-books (like me)?

Just a guess...

Or the company could be in such financial straights that the only possible improvement could be to release the new version earlier to generate revenue - complainers be damned.

Just another guess...

Quote from: jrientsA little over a year is "a long ways away"?  That seems dubious.  And the clear implication is that it would not be out in 2008.  Sure there's room for backpedaling from that statement, but the fact that there needs to be backpedaling suggests deception.

What they said, as I recall basically amounted to "it's not imminent".

From the time they said that until the 4e PHB will be 18+ months.

I don't think they lied.

I think people just wanted to believe that meant it was several years away, and so they did.

A 10 year edition cycle is leaving money on the table in today's market. Star Wars, GURPs, Hero and NWOD have all proven that.

Quote from: StuartI'll be surprised if large numbers of people  sign up for a monthly subscription that's *higher* than a Dragon mag subscription to get the same content but not in print form and access to some web tools they could find elsewhere on the web, and usually for free.

I'm pretty leery of this concept as well.  A sub to Dragon and Dungeon cost what per year?  $80?  A year's worth of WoW costs $156.  So they'll charge higher than $80 but less than $156.  So maybe $120 per year or $9.99 per month.  I don't really like using pdf's, so this will be a hard thing to sell to me.  Especially since I didn't like the content of Dragon at all and Dungeon only a couple of times per year.

Quote from: StuartExcept that in addition to buying a book -- people are being asked to sign up for a monthly subscription for virtual content.

Sure, but then I'm a core books-only (or nearly so) guy. I'm assuming the core books will be as complete and functional as 3.x.

If not, no 4E for me. But I don't believe that.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckA 10 year edition cycle is leaving money on the table in today's market. Star Wars, GURPs, Hero and NWOD have all proven that.

I agree. It was getting close to the end of 3x's cylce in the first place. The announcement may be on the early side, but it still jibes with what I expected; before 3x turned ten years old there would be a new edition out. As some have said this does not invalidate everyone's old stuff if they want to keep it, hell if it's close to SAGA/D20 Modern/D&D 3x, then it should be pretty easy to convert and mess with to boot.

Quote from: mhensleyI'm pretty leery of this concept as well.  A sub to Dragon and Dungeon cost what per year?  $80?  A year's worth of WoW costs $156.  So they'll charge higher than $80 but less than $156.  So maybe $120 per year or $9.99 per month.  I don't really like using pdf's, so this will be a hard thing to sell to me.  Especially since I didn't like the content of Dragon at all and Dungeon only a couple of times per year.

No kid, I also think it's a gonna be a tough sell at any price point that will make them a profit. I wonder if it would be a lot easier to go back to a print model. The margin would be narrower, but they could count more on individual sales as well as subscribers.