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[Hypothetical] "It was meant to be..."

Started by JongWK, July 02, 2007, 03:01:55 AM

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TonyLB

Quote from: James J SkachAnd, frankly, it's a bit insulting to insinuate that people who play this way are not taking into account the people that are at the table. Can you see how it would be?
James, wouldja do me a favor and clear out some room in your private message folder?  I get the strong feeling that this discussion is not being helped by an audience.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

James J Skach

Quote from: TonyLBJames, wouldja do me a favor and clear out some room in your private message folder?  I get the strong feeling that this discussion is not being helped by an audience.
Tony,

Will do, but now I'm just trying to escape work and get on vacation.  Can we pick it up tommorrow?

I'm sorry if that's a bit too confrontational for you.  I know you don't like that stuff and I'm trying to avoid it.

But we can pick it up in private if you prefer.

Thanks,
Jim
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

James J Skach

Quote from: flyingmiceI'm going to have to add "What James J Skatch Said!" to my sig if this keeps up!

:D

-clash
Only if you lose the 't' in the last name :p

It's all Bill's fault.  He's got me thinking all logical and shit...bastard.

EDIT: I'm going to put "What Clash said" in mine.  Then, we get Bill to put "What Jim said" in his.  It's my evil plan to bring down the intrawebs through an infinite recursion....
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

James J Skach

I cleared out a couple Tony...look forward to hearing from you.
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

RPGPundit

Well, let's clarify a few things about this example, shall we?

Spoiler

For starters, Jong's character isn't a regular Christian.  He's a guy (an immortal) who actually MET Jesus (who was also an immortal), and the "type" of Christianity Jong was trying to convert Marcus into wasn't one of the 600 or so different kinds of 2nd-century christianity but essentially Jong's "Religion of One".  When the dialogue scenes were played out between him and Marcus (who, I will note, is a child prodigy; those of you who know Roman history know just WHO Marcus turns out to be), Jong wasn't even able to clearly express what the central points of his character's ideology were to Marcus, ie. precisely what the fuck he wanted Marcus to believe in?! He didn't tell Marcus that he (or Jesus) were immortals, he didn't make it clear about the resurrection, or any particular points of dogma other than this kind of general mysticism and "christians aren't bad people" thing.

The result was that the now-adult Marcus is remarkably open toward christian beliefs, rejects the persecution of the Christians, and, in combination with the training he received from the finest living philosophers of the empire (thanks to the Emperor Hadrian's infatuation with him), Marcus has a deeply investigative and tolerant open mind.  He has been shown in the campaign acting on his own initiative to read other "forbidden" christian texts (beside the one Jong wrote), and has expressed a general sympathy for christianity without being willing to reject altogether the existence of the Roman gods.

So the question here really is: What the fuck did Jong want to happen? If his goal was to change history, he did. Marcus (the heir to the imperial throne) is now sympathetic toward Christianity, in a way he never clearly was historically.  Was Marcus going to convert whole-hog to Christianity? Not the way Jong handled things he wasn't.  Jong didn't make him a part of a church, didn't surround him with Christian teachers, and didn't block Marcus from outside influences (namely the Stoic teachers that Hadrian provided for him).  The problem is, really, that Jong was never very clear about what he wanted or just how to get it. And he seemed to have two very conflicting desires for young Marcus; on the one hand for Marcus to become a model Roman citizen, and on the other to become a believing and good Christian.  The biggest problem with this is that, at this point in the campaign, those two things are diametric opposites, and Jong is the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH who thinks they don't have to be.  Every other Christian around who has the courage of their convictions is willing to die rather than to worship the Roman State Gods, or if they don't they know they're doing "wrong" by failing to martyr themselves.  Jong wants a Christianity that somehow retains its monotheism but is acceptable to Roman civilization, and that just can't happen yet.

So in essence, he raised Marcus to have a choice between being the dutiful Roman patrician and a follower of the religion of his father (and I mean literally the religion of his father, like I said before, Jong doesn't belong to any organized church and no one else believes in the christianity he believes in).  He sees Jong's character say he's a Christian, but Jong's christianity doesn't seem to mean anything other than to say "yeah, Jesus rocked".  He's certainly not willing to lose all his wealth and privilege for being Christian, or stop being a Patrician, or stop killing people, or stop worshipping at the Pantheon, or stop anything else that makes him a model Roman.  So in a very real sense, Marcus is following in his adopted father's footsteps, with the one little difference being that he's not quite willing to even call himself a Christian, in part because of his studies of the rest of Christianity, and in part because of his Stoic training, and in part because of his legendary honesty.

Its basically a case of Jong telling Marcus "Do as I say, not as I do" or something like that, and poor Marcus not really knowing what the flying fuck Jong actually wants from him.  A declaration? A statement? I mean, let's hypothetically say that Marcus said to Jong "ok yes, I'm a Christian".  I ask you Jong: What the hell would happen AFTER that? In what way would you want Marcus to act differently than he does now?

Because the thing is, Jong, Marcus thinks admires you (as in Quintus, your character) greatly for many things, but he also thinks that Quintus is something of a hypocrite.  And Marcus "Verissimus" Verus Quintus Antoninus can NOT be a hypocrite, its not in him.  For him to declare himself a Christian, he'd have to figure out what exactly it'd mean to be a Christian (which you never really managed to explain to him very well), and he'd have to be upfront and honest about BEING a Christian. So if you taught him that there's only one God, that honesty would mean no longer worshipping at the temple of Jove or the Divine Trajan or anyone else, and it would mean dying in the Lion Pen at the Games. Marcus isn't sure he is a Christian or not, but he knows that if he was one, it would be more than just saying that in secret to you, and then doing nothing different about it and going on acting like a model Roman-pagan.

RPGPundit
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pspahn

Quote from: RPGPunditand it would mean dying in the Lion Pen at the Games.

That alone would be enough to keep me from converting.  Long live Zeus!  

:)

Pete
Small Niche Games
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flyingmice

Thanks, Pundit. That makes complete sense to me.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
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JongWK

Pundit,

Spoiler

"The character/player couldn't explain it" is a pretty weak excuse--not everyone has a Degree in Religious Studies, you know? Some of us have to wing it with what we remember from game sessions that happened a year ago, and by spending a feat for Knowledge (Religion). This isn't Amber Diceless, no matter how much it looks like it at times.
"I give the gift of endless imagination."
~~Gary Gygax (1938 - 2008)


RPGPundit

Quote from: JongWKPundit,

Spoiler

"The character/player couldn't explain it" is a pretty weak excuse--not everyone has a Degree in Religious Studies, you know? Some of us have to wing it with what we remember from game sessions that happened a year ago, and by spending a feat for Knowledge (Religion). This isn't Amber Diceless, no matter how much it looks like it at times.

Ok, for sure, and I wasn't asking you to provide advanced metaphysics. But let me ask you this: What the hell does Quintus even actually believe? What does Quintus do that's actually Christian, that's different from Pagan Romans, that he wanted to "Pass on" to Marcus? What did he want Marcus to do that Marcus doesn't do now?

That's the part that was missing; you weren't supposed to give him all kinds of sophisticated teachings, it was the question of what exactly does "Quintusianity" stand for? Because from where I'm standing in the campaign, it looks as though it seems to be just a question of a declaration of faith with absolutely no difference in behaviour, and a faith that doesn't have to be backed up with any conviction either.  I mean your whole deal is that you were telling Marcus to be a Christian, but go sacrifice lambs to Venus and black rabbits to Apollo or whatever, to make sure he gets to go into the Senate. So then what does it mean to be a Christian at all, in your version of the faith?

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


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Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
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ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
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LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Kyle Aaron

I'm speaking here of general points about roleplaying and GMing. I don't want to get into this specific example.
Quote from: TonyLBI guess what I'm asking is, once we've assumed (as per the first post) that the GM is railroading, does an in-game justification make that better?
The only justification possible is, "does it end up fun?" The part that originally struck me was
Quote from: JongWKSuppose that when trying to do this over several sessions, you run into more difficulties than expected, to the point that you begin to suspect that this might be because the GM's plans differ from yours.
[my emphasis]
If the GM has got some wonderful sight they're taking you to see on the Campaign Train, they should at least take you there quickly. There's a reason that Lost or the X-Files would make terrible rpgs if done like the tv series. People want resolutions to the stories. Stretching it out with padding and red herrings may work in getting ratings up for telly series, but they're really dreadful in rpg campaigns. People just get pissed.

If you're going to railroad, make sure the destination is somewhere interesting, and make sure you get there fast.
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David R

So this is not really a "historical" campaign, what with the "Immortals" and all. It seems to me, Jong should have been told during the "several sessions" that he was not really doing a "good" job trying to influence a certain NPC.

Which brings us to what's a "good" job anyway? You (Pundit) seem to have a lot invested in this character....something which I think is a good thing esp if you want the "character" to be credible but if Jong needed to do "more" if the roleplaying needed to be a bit more sophisticated/nuanced then this should have been told to Jong much earlier.

I mean a simple "your approach is not working esp for for a character like this" is required IMO. IME it's difficult for players who may not realize what is expected of them or even if they could deliver...that's why there are "mechanics" to deal with issues such as these.

You obviously have a more nuanced grasp of history/religion than your players. I could be wrong but it sounds like "you" needed to be convinced and not this "character".

Regards,
David R

flyingmice

Quote from: David RI mean a simple "your approach is not working esp for for a character like this" is required IMO. IME it's difficult for players who may not realize what is expected of them or even if they could deliver...that's why there are "mechanics" to deal with issues such as these.

You obviously have a more nuanced grasp of history/religion than your players. I could be wrong but it sounds like "you" needed to be convinced and not this "character".

Regards,
David R

I agree. Pundit should have informed him that it wasn't working - and Jong should have said OOC "Why not? What am I doing wrong?"

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

RPGPundit

Jong should have been clearer about wtf he wanted, for starters. I was talking about it with Sunboy today over sushi, and Sunboy (who's in the campaign) was pretty shocked at hearing about this thread; maybe he'll write to it later, but in short the gist of what he said to me is that he also didn't really get what Jong is actually upset about, or in which particular way Jong wanted Marcus to act that is different from how he's acting now.  Quintus repeatedly told Marcus two things in the RP with him: 1, that he wanted to Marcus to read and study christian writings and should not believe what is said about the christians just so, and 2, that he wanted Marcus to get a full Roman education and follow the "via aurea" to the senate, and get a full and open education.

If you have an undecipherable secret motive that you don't tell the GM about and you act in a way to create a result that differs from that secret motive, you shouldn't really be surprised if your secret goal doesn't come to pass.

Again, I ask Jong point blank: what exactly did you hope Marcus would do or be that is different from what he does or is now? If Marcus had said to you "ok, dad, I'm a Christian", what would have been the next step? What would have been different?

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

pspahn

Quote from: RPGPunditJong should have been clearer about wtf he wanted, for starters.

That was my next question.  Did you (Jong) let the GM know what you were trying to accomplish?  If not, he really can't be blamed for the outcome.  If you did explain it to him, he should have told what you would have to do in order to achieve that goal (assuming it was possible at all).  This is starting to sound more like a communication issue now than a difference in play style.

Pete
Small Niche Games
Also check the WWII: Operation WhiteBox Community on Google+

Kyle Aaron

The Cheetoist Philosophy:-

We game for the snacks. And also the dice. But mostly, just to hang out with friends and tell tall stories.

Rpg books are just a bunch of guidelines for how to tell your tall stories, and give you a fair excuse to roll lots of dice and eat cheetos. To make your games more fun, talk to your group.

:what:
The Viking Hat GM
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