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Like it says.  There's way more than 20 options to pick from, so if you didn't see your favorite, make your own poll. :p

EDIT: Goddamn it, I forgot GURPS: Conan.  Oh well.
EDIT: Forgot Crypts and Things too, sorry Newt.

Like I said elsewhere, I'd love a CoC-compatible Conan game, so BRP/CoC would be the most perfect option for me.

I haven't actually done any Hyboria-based gaming, though.

Barbarians of Lemuria and Crypts & Things would probably be my next-best choices.

My pick was MRQII/RQ6/Mythras

Pros

• Pure Skill System.  You are what you do and can move from role to role by learning new skills and deciding what to emphasize.  There is zero niche protection, which I think is important in a Sword and Sorcery game of any type. You could argue that Howard has clear niches between Sorcerers and everyone else, but even Conan has learned the Symbol of Jhebbal Sag.
• Sorcery is based on the revelation of secret and alien knowledge, and a Sorceror is going to have different Invocation skills: one might be used to cast the spells learned from the Dark Man, or Kalanthes of Hanumar, Priest of Ibis, others might be gleaned from the Scrolls of Skelos or runes carved into the skull of a great ape, stolen from a witch doctor in the jungles of Kush.  How a Sorceror pieces his knowledge together is very Conanish and the system gives rules for dialing up or down magic power to fit the magic level of your world.
• Combat is quick and brutal, and the number ranges give enough room to fit in all of Howard's unique weapons in addition to all the weapons and armor you would expect.
• You don't like Fortune, Passions, or optional rules for Minions, erase them and you're not undermining anything about the core mechanics.
• The Chargen is very detailed and in phases, one of which is the phase where you get skills based on your Cultural Background.  This perfectly fits Howard's world as race and culture contributing to your abilities and identity are important - perhaps moreso than modern sensibilities of some are comfortable with.  In any case, if you want to give Cimmerians a bonus to Strength and Climbing, or Picts to Stealth, or Shemites to Archery and Deceit, or Brythunian women to Seduction, the system has a perfect way to structure this in.  Also the phased nature makes it easy to bolt in your favorite Lifepath stuff, which I always do, being perhaps a bigger Lifepath Whore than Butcher.
• It's d100 compatible, so toss in anything you want from Cthulhu, BRP or Magic World spells, to Khitai flavor from Dragon Lines or Celestial Empire to alchemy from Cakebread and Walton.

Cons

• Fairly crunchy, which always means a bit of work in the NPC creation dept.  But if you don't mind just assigning important skill ranges without going through character creation for everyone, it's not a problem.   Also the craziest SOB in Runequest fandom, Hkokko, has a website that has roughly 12 zillion entries in his encounter creator (http://ouropa.planeetta.com/rq_tools/enemygen/).
  
• The combat crunch also means doing a 20 vs 25 encounter isn't going to be as quick as Savage Worlds for example. While there's a great supplement called Ships and Shield Walls, it isn't Conan specific and is more Unit v. Unit rather than Skirmish level.  You can do battles with the Tigress, but integrating Belit firing from the deck while Conan leads the Red Corsairs in the boarding action will take some doing.
• While it was made so that you could do Conan, it isn't licensed, and thus the spell are Runequest spells, not skinned for Howard sources at all, as a result, the flavor isn't as Conanish as the Mongoose spells were or the Modiphius spells are likely to be for example, but I'd have to reskin those anyway with any system that wasn't designed with that in mind.
• It's a toolkit system, which means nothing is really licensed for Conan, or pre-dialed in, so you're making your own Total Conversion Hyborian Hack.
  

Barbarians of Lemuria.

TSR Conan. Pretty good really. Magic has a price and the more you delve the worse it gets.

Call of Cthulhu via the Dreamlands supplement. Like TSR Conan. Magic has a heavy price.

BX D&D would be another choice for the overall lower magic power and system.

And of course Red Shetland/Equine the Uncivilized RPG, Because I wrote it. so nya! aheh. Drop out the parody aspects and the Disney animal people and there you go.

While I love Conan's tales, I don't find his world to be remarkably interesting as a RPG setting, especially compared to Elric's Melnibone and Young Kingdoms. As such, I've played in several Conan campaigns, but as a GM, my S&S game of choice is Stormbringer.

As for the "best" Conan RPG - FOR ME - its been all about the GM making the game play feel like the Conan stories, but don't believe the individual systems used (AD&D, original Conan RPG, Fantasy Hero, Gurps Conan, Conan D20) were particularly useful.

As for Modiphius' KS, we will see how well Conan the Forge-arian does. ;0

One of my groups had a LOT of fun years ago with my Man vs. Monsters 4e campaign where all the PCs were humans with martial classes (Fighter, Thief, Ranger, Warlord) so if I had a group who liked minis who wanted to play Conan, I'd probably break that out again. Maybe modify out 13th Age with Icons for Hyborea.

Barbarians of Lemuria. Because it is quick, easy to learn, fast in play, cinematic, gives lots of space for narration and improvisation, but still are a very traditional rpg. Fairly easy to convert stuff from other systems. Previously used BRP+CoC. Also working on my own D&D/OSR hack with Blood&Treasure, Mongoose Conan, 13th Age and Age of Conan(OD&D) by Grey Elf as foundation.

Assuming we're talking about actual Hyborian Age Conan roleplaying rather than the slightly more nebulous "Conanesque", I'd say:

- AS&SH: The setting is chock-full of great S&S inspiration, but it's not specifically the Hyborian Age. Still, might be good for idea mining. As for the system itself, I think it's not necessarily the best choice, but certainly not the worst, either.

- Barbarians of Lemuria: For a quick, short campaign of a limited length, I could see doing this.

- Some kind of RuneQuest: the idea appeals to me on an intellectual level, but I'd need to tinker with the ruleset and pare it down to something lighter; and if I'm going to do that, I might as well do it with the generic D&D paradigm as a base, as I'm more familiar with that.

- Ultimately, "other": most likely a fusion of Gabor Lux's Sword & Magic and a whole bunch of stuff from Kevin Crawford's Sine Nomine games, with a heavily reworked magic system and a good bit of tinkering to erode all this into some sort of semi-class-based or unclassed sort-of-kind-of-D&D-ish thing.

I am more likely to choose to play Hyborian inspired campaigns than one set in in the actual world. I would choose Atlantis 2nd Age as the system covers the genre as a whole include the individual source material that REH would draw on. The RPG is comprehensive without being book heavy. The mechanics are fast playing, supportive of genre, and kind on the GM.

All of them and none of them. I would focus on figuring what I think Hyboria is and list out the details. Whatever system I pick I would whack until it if that list.

Quote from: Spinachcat;883490While I love Conan's tales, I don't find his world to be remarkably interesting as a RPG setting

Ok first the obligatory :D

Spoiler

(https://nvzjpq-ch3301.files.1drv.com/y3m6KTdhtfDNCep2iSHNhG4IP1txUmX5W9UPqE44wxLxb5-GDNhirDzmhjC3uTfv66oXpve2KyD6PsJTSBYofg3i9Div6bWa5pURXo5Pb9Lv7AHPXoU2SDFD8q8dMpDARAOUZm52Q2Cpo0Ex_0hZsxBRQ?width=500&height=454&cropmode=none)

Just curious, why Young Kingdoms as opposed to Hyborian Age?  For me I got a better sense of the world and what was going on in Howard's tales, then I did of the Young Kingdoms in Moorcock's writings.  Maybe because the nature was more episodic, they seemed more exploring the world through Conan then telling this epic tale of Conan.

Quote from: Spinachcat;883490As for the "best" Conan RPG - FOR ME - its been all about the GM making the game play feel like the Conan stories, but don't believe the individual systems used (AD&D, original Conan RPG, Fantasy Hero, Gurps Conan, Conan D20) were particularly useful.

I can totally see that.  My players loved playing Conan d20 when I was running it, but when the players almost resent leveling rather than looking forward to it, kind of time to move on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;883490As for Modiphius' KS, we will see how well Conan the Forge-arian does. ;0

Maybe modify out 13th Age with Icons for Hyborea.

How is 13th Age not Conan the Forge-arian? :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;883500Ok first the obligatory :D

Dude, the tea drinking peace weenie? Really.

There is but one Captain and his name is James Tiberius Kirk!!!

And he is played by the Almighty Shatner!

Quote from: CRKrueger;883500Just curious, why Young Kingdoms as opposed to Hyborian Age?

More magic.  I like my S&S more fantastical than historical in feel.

Same reason I prefer D&D to Pendragon. But I'm happy to play Pendragon.
 

Quote from: CRKrueger;883500How is 13th Age not Conan the Forge-arian? :D

Because the designers didn't yammer on about "player agency" and "narrative gameplay".

But yeah, 13th Age - especially the adventures - have plenty of narrative wank in them, but I like the idea of Icons & how they play into the lives of the PCs from afar.

I'm not sure any system can do Conan. There isn't any singular "feel" IMHO. They range from historical to horror to mythic fantasy.

In the Frost Giant's Daughter, as an 18 year old (ish), he kills two Frost Giants in basically a single blow each. Then you have that one story where an adult Conan is knocked out by a rock from a sling. Which I guess hurts quit ea bit, but in most game systems the damage from one is about as low as it gets.

Though with that said, I use an OSRed version of Mongoose's Conan.

Quote from: Spinachcat;883503Dude, the tea drinking peace weenie? Really.

There is but one Captain and his name is James Tiberius Kirk!!!

And he is played by the Almighty Shatner!

True, in the Hyborian Age, Kirk would have made a drinking cup from Picard's skull, had Riker nailed to the Tree of Woe, tossed Ro Laren, Crusher, and Yar in the Harem for later, fucked 7of9 and T'Pol into an orgiastic coma before retiring to the main event...Queen Uhura.

It's still a funny meme though.

Quote from: Spinachcat;883503More magic.  I like my S&S more fantastical than historical in feel.

Same reason I prefer D&D to Pendragon. But I'm happy to play Pendragon.

Oh yeah, I gotcha.  I just feel like when I put down the unmitigated awesome of the books, I turn to one of my players who says "I want to make a guy from Tarkesh" and not only do I have no idea what that's like, I'm not sure I care (if that makes any sense at all).  I never got all the Chaosium supplements though so there might be some great stuff in there.

Quote from: Spinachcat;883503But yeah, 13th Age - especially the adventures - have plenty of narrative wank in them, but I like the idea of Icons & how they play into the lives of the PCs from afar.

If you ever come up with Hyborian Icons, post 'em up, would be interesting to see.

Quote from: JeremyR;883504I'm not sure any system can do Conan. There isn't any singular "feel" IMHO. They range from historical to horror to mythic fantasy.

In the Frost Giant's Daughter, as an 18 year old (ish), he kills two Frost Giants in basically a single blow each. Then you have that one story where an adult Conan is knocked out by a rock from a sling. Which I guess hurts quit ea bit, but in most game systems the damage from one is about as low as it gets.

Though with that said, I use an OSRed version of Mongoose's Conan.

Yeah, it's back to the "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so Precise." thing.

Although, there was a really cool article I read which makes the argument (backed by descriptions from the story) that Conan really was dying, that really was Heimdall he fought, and in essence, the whole story is like a Hyborian HeroQuest, but because the beings in that place weren't his gods, and weren't known to him, they had little power over him which allowed him to win his life back.  Interesting read.

Also you're right, Conan was more of a way to express the different types of stories Howard liked to write, so the Conan stories themselves are all over the map genrewise, even though you have the overarching mythos of the "Writer's Bible" he wrote to keep himself honest.

That's why I think the WHY of the system people choose is always more interesting than the what.

Quote from: Itachi;883485Barbarians of Lemuria.

I didn't see on the list until I selected the Whatever choice, but this is also one of my choices.

Did it with Savage Worlds a while back. Used the Solomon Kane guidelines on magic, plus the Mongoose (d20) Conan Road of Kings sourcebook. Nowadays I'd use ritual magic and monsters from the Horror Companion and the Gritty Damage rules.

Ah, who am I kidding? I'd use RQ6 precisely for the reasons Krugs mentions. Especially the combat system. And of course, I'd use the Mongoose Legend supplement, Arcana of Legend: Blood Magic for the sacrifice and (Stormbringer/Elric-like) demon summoning rules. Also MRQII Empires the better to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under one's sandaled feet.

I voted ACKS, though I've never used it, because I believe the upcoming Heroic Companion will offer a neat Conanesque mod. But right now, as written, any D&D derivative that allows for safe and reliable spellcasting doesn't really feel Howardian to me.

RQ6/Mythras overall, especially if I want a system that captures the bone-crunching, thrust-and-parry, nature of combat in REH's stories.

Crypts & Things or Barbarians of Lemuria if I want something fast, or a system that is 'Savage Sword of Conan' in tone (as opposed to the original REH stories).

CoC + Dreamlands is an interesting option. Not a great combat system (for Conan), but the magic system seems like a good fit.

Quote from: The Butcher;883524Did it with Savage Worlds a while back. Used the Solomon Kane guidelines on magic, plus the Mongoose (d20) Conan Road of Kings sourcebook. Nowadays I'd use ritual magic and monsters from the Horror Companion and the Gritty Damage rules.

Ah, who am I kidding? I'd use RQ6 precisely for the reasons Krugs mentions. Especially the combat system. And of course, I'd use the Mongoose Legend supplement, Arcana of Legend: Blood Magic for the sacrifice and (Stormbringer/Elric-like) demon summoning rules. Also MRQII Empires the better to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under one's sandaled feet.

I voted ACKS, though I've never used it, because I believe the upcoming Heroic Companion will offer a neat Conanesque mod. But right now, as written, any D&D derivative that allows for safe and reliable spellcasting doesn't really feel Howardian to me.

Since you're a Conan fan and Skyrim fan, check this Skyrim mod (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/images/176833/?) out.

I'm currently using Savage Worlds with the excellent Beasts & Barbarians supplement.  I would have used RQ6, but the group plays every two weeks, is unfamiliar with BRP, fluctuates in size, and is comprised primarily of newer players.  They had played some Deadlands, so SW was an easy fit and is honestly working out very well.  The players love the simple skill system as well as the Edges and Hindrances, and they really enjoy having damage rolls blow up.  I'd make it grittier with some of the optional rules but honestly, they're having so much fun with it I'm not going to change a thing.  It's probably more Savage Sword of Conan than pure Howard, but as I'm the closest thing to a "Howard scholar" in the group, no one else knows the difference anyway.

I'm going to say 5e D&D since I'm playing a Primeval Thule campaign, which is a big REH expy, and it works very well (except I wouldn't allow Divine casters, personally - probably only Warlocks & Wizards). Also my Wilderlands Barbarian Altanis-set 5e game is very heavily REH Hyborea-influenced. 4e D&D with a focus on the Martial power source also worked very well for Barbarian Altanis, Brawler Fighter was brilliant.

I ran Mongoose OGL Conan years ago; that worked very well except for the stupid Defensive Blast sorcerer thing. I think the combat in 4e & 5e is more Conanesque though.

Mythras/RQ6 as a core, for basically the reasons CRKruger listed earlier.  (Although I don't consider "toolkit system" and "not a licensed setting" to be cons.  I prefer to roll my own.)

ACKS for domain management if that comes up and I want the kingdoms to be crunchy and realistic.  An Echo, Resounding for domain management if it comes up and I want it to be light and abstract.

If we're talking more generically "Conanesque"/S&S, then AS&SH for the setting, mainly because I know their Hyperborea better than I know Hyborea.  Plus I just plain like the "fragment of Earth orbiting the sun after it's become a red giant" concept better than a normal, boring, spherical planet.

Quote from: JeremyR;883504I'm not sure any system can do Conan. There isn't any singular "feel" IMHO. They range from historical to horror to mythic fantasy.

Take Fate. Add genre Aspects. Run an episodic campaign. Change the Aspects between different parts of it:).

QuoteIn the Frost Giant's Daughter, as an 18 year old (ish), he kills two Frost Giants in basically a single blow each. Then you have that one story where an adult Conan is knocked out by a rock from a sling. Which I guess hurts quit ea bit, but in most game systems the damage from one is about as low as it gets.

That's a failing of "most game systems", not of REH's story. Ask Goliath whether slings have low damage;).

What would I choose for a Hyborian campaign? Well, many systems have the right feel, including as disparate ones as Mythras, Savage Worlds and Exalted 3, once you strip out the charms:D!
Personally, I might be tempted to pick Zenobia, 43 AD and Warband, which are running on the same engine anyway, and use those. Or I might run Conan: OVA edition:p!
If I ever do the latter, I'll remember to report the sessions;).

But realistically, if I do run a Hyborian campaign, I suspect I'd end up running it in 2d20, just because that would be the easiest:D!
Then again, it will be some time before I get a free slot for a campaign, and by then I might choose to run Barsoom instead;).

I wonder how well Two-Fisted Tales, a generic pulp game that can be played at different power levels, would fit the Hyborian Age.

Quote from: JeremyR;883504In the Frost Giant's Daughter, as an 18 year old (ish), he kills two Frost Giants in basically a single blow each. Then you have that one story where an adult Conan is knocked out by a rock from a sling. Which I guess hurts quit ea bit, but in most game systems the damage from one is about as low as it gets.

Just for a bit of nerdery, the second part of that can be explained perfectly in D&D:

IIRC, the story you're referring to is Iron Shadows of the Moon, and Conan has just finished (and won) a grueling duel with a pirate captain. So, in D&D terms, Conan has already lost most of his Hit Points in the duel - remember, in old-school D&D "a hit" and "losing HP" does not mean you actually get stabbed/cut/whatever -, and he stays fully combat capable even on his last HP. Then he gets hit with a measly slingshot that drops him to or below 0 and he keels over like a sack.

Quote from: Premier;883586Just for a bit of nerdery, the second part of that can be explained perfectly in D&D:

IIRC, the story you're referring to is Iron Shadows of the Moon, and Conan has just finished (and won) a grueling duel with a pirate captain. So, in D&D terms, Conan has already lost most of his Hit Points in the duel - remember, in old-school D&D "a hit" and "losing HP" does not mean you actually get stabbed/cut/whatever -, and he stays fully combat capable even on his last HP. Then he gets hit with a measly slingshot that drops him to or below 0 and he keels over like a sack.

That's a metagame mechanic if I've ever seen one;).

GURPS Conan, with my house rules. Because it has a nice detailed and violent/bloody/savage yet intelligent/sense-making tactical (mapped) combat system that makes sense and that I love playing, and I almost always play GURPS anyway.

Also, the only times I actually play Conan are with the GURPS Conan programmed adventures, or one-off encounters for fun and mayhem.

QuoteOriginally Posted by estar
All of them and none of them. I would focus on figuring what I think Hyboria is and list out the details. Whatever system I pick I would whack until it if that list.

This really.

I have run almost all of the listed games and some not listed for the Hyborian age and I've "whacked" them all to make them work better.

Off the top of my head, my "list" for whacking includes:
1) Deadly brutal combat.  PCs should be a cut above average but should not not have arbitrary immunity from a sword in the gut.
2) Skill and stat based without a lot of special abilities or adds/disadds. It should be wits and steel vs an uncaring universe.
3) blurred morality - no alignments or personality traits beyond what is roleplayed.  A lack of cosmic order or meaning.  Gods may or may not exist - though most people are highly superstitious if not complete religious nut-jobs.
4) Terrifying, dangerous and unpredictable magic and supernatural elements with an emphasis on the weird.
5) A hint of Howard's racial/cultural stereotyping.  It's not politically correct but you when you talk to a Zamoran you'd better keep your hand on your purse.
6) able to cover 31 flavors of history.


My vote was for a mash-up of BRP (including bits from magic world, RQ6, Openquest etc.).  RQ6 is nearly perfect right out of the box.  However the combat is slightly too crunchy for my tastes and I prefer the BRP/stormbinger combat.

GURPS Conan could perhaps do what BRP/RQ6 does, if you prefer GURPS.

Anything with class/levels feels off to me.  My players like the Mongoose system because of the widgets for character building, but the game in my experience loses the feel at about 7th level.  Savage Worlds also has lots of character widgets but the system is not for me - too much wonky math, narrative bits, and cinema.

If I was to run D&D in the Hyborian Age it would be Crypts and Things, but all the OSR based systems, as great as they are, feel too much like D&D and it seems tough to change that vibe.  A leathery mass of tentacles and teeth with telepathic powers is a true horror in BRP - in D&D, it's just an Otyugh.

BoL is freaken awesome, but every time I run it I get drunk and add dinosaurs and spaceships.:o

I ran a campaign in TSR Conan/Zefrs for a summer in high school and my nostalgia runs deep, but the game needs a lot of work and tweeking to fill in the gaps and inconsistencies.

I like the omni-system well enough, and the new Atlantis 2nd Age is a work of mad genius, but it's too gonzo for the Hyborian Age, IMHO.

Some other good resources include The Spider God's Bride adventures, the Savage North for Open Quest,  and TSR's CN3 Conan Triumphant is a good mini-campaign and the only TSR Conan module that's worth a crap.

Quote from: AsenRG;883589That's a metagame mechanic if I've ever seen one;).

Naw, Hit Points are a ridiculously abstracted mechanic, but still representative of something completely in game.  Granted it's abstracted to the point that some may see no difference, but it's there.

Magic World works well for this.  Granted, the line seems to have been given the ax with the reorganization of Chaosium, but all you really need are the two available books anyway.

Quote from: AsenRG;883579That's a failing of "most game systems", not of REH's story. Ask Goliath whether slings have low damage;).

This. Whipping a stone around and around in a sling before releasing it gives it enough momentum to break your arm. If Conan got hit in the skull, it was a heroic act to merely be knocked out instead of dying.

I don't know that I would ever explicitly set a game in Hyboria, but if I were to, Mythras would be my pick for reasons that have already been stated. Plus it has slings that do damage on par with a mace or longbow. ;)

Quote from: CRKrueger;883605Naw, Hit Points are a ridiculously abstracted mechanic, but still representative of something completely in game.  Granted it's abstracted to the point that some may see no difference, but it's there.

"Hit points are hit points. They represent hit points, and they simulate hit points. Hit points are Errol Flynn physics.They are meant to represent the duel at the end of the Errol Flynn movie. Hit points are a game thing that makes the game fun."
Yeah, definitely doesn't seem like something in the game.

Quote from: AsenRG;883688"Hit points are hit points. They represent hit points, and they simulate hit points. Hit points are Errol Flynn physics.They are meant to represent the duel at the end of the Errol Flynn movie. Hit points are a game thing that makes the game fun."
Yeah, definitely doesn't seem like something in the game.

So a search and read what Estar and Alexander have said about Hit Points. Or not.  Don't have the energy to do Abstract vs. Dissociated the 1200th time.

TL/DR;
A crappy, over-abstracted model that doesn't work very well does not mean it's not representing something completely inside the setting.

I've found that Pendragon has worked well generally for worlds of pre-D&D pseudo-medieval fantasy literature, and I see no reason the pseudo-classical elements of the Hyborian Age should pose any problem.

The magic system from the 4th ed. is a pretty good starting point, but I find that what most preserves the flavor of the tales is leaving magic in the GM's hands. NPC sorcerers may on occasion be companions on adventures, but far more often they are patrons or foes.

However, Zenobia is what I'm most inclined to choose now if I were to run an REH game. It has quite simple yet sufficiently comprehensive mechanics, putting the focus on what interesting exploits the player-characters will undertake, and what strategically significant hurdles must be overcome, rather than on number-crunching for a myriad of mundane tasks.

The hand-to-hand combat system is also interesting, allowing one to "save" point results for a chance at dealing grievous wounds (which may be lost if one presses luck too long). There are some minor tweaks I would make, but overall it's a pretty elegant rules set that seems to have just the "sword and sandal" flavor for a Conan style campaign.

Quote from: JeremyR;883504In the Frost Giant's Daughter, as an 18 year old (ish), he kills two Frost Giants in basically a single blow each.

 Then you have that one story where an adult Conan is knocked out by a rock from a sling. Which I guess hurts quit ea bit, but in most game systems the damage from one is about as low as it gets.

1: At age 18 Conan had allready seen more than a few wars.

Quote"I was," grunted the other. (Conan)"I was one of the horde that swarmed over the walls. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires."

2: Having been hit in the chest with a sling stone (a rock propelled by a lawn mower) and laid out flat. And the fact that once again. Conan does not equate to D&D well. You can simulate it with things like subdual damage and special shots. But pointing out that he was KOed by a sling proves nothing at all other than he was KOed by a sling.

x: This was something I actually considered when writing RS. The concept of situational HP and regular HP. Things you are aware of and can react to allow situational HP to come into play. Otherwise it comes off your base HP. Instead went with a base life score that does not improve unless you actually train to improve. The real factor was your ability to either dodge or use your armour and/or shield and/or parrying effectively. Which worked better and was part of the sales pitch that got me the green light.

So, how does your favored system handle Hyborian Age Magic?

This is slightly tangential, but IMHO most of the listed systems above struggle to do Hyborian Age magic well.  Certainly Vancian systems or systems where there is little risk or cost are poor fits.  Furthermore, just about any magic system that follows particular reliable formulas or structures feels - unmagical.

The original TSR Conan basically had no magic system, only guidelines about how a GM could create spells and some consequences for PCs who trifle with sorcery.  Its quite cool, but the GM must do all the work as nothing is done for you.

Mongoose Conan made a valiant effort at Hyborian sorcery.  I think it is the only full blown magic system designed specifically for the Milieu.  It's a little limited and is heavily dependent on the class/level structure of the game.

BoL magic can work well, but because it is a player driven improv system, you need a very good GM to keep it under control.  BoL sorcery requires good GM judgment (and that can be good or bad depending if your GM gets it or not) or it can be overly powerful, even game-wrecking, in my experience.

BRP magic works well, I think, because it is practically a non-system and it is completely open ended.  Nothing is scaled, but there are a ton of spells (in all the various products) most of which fit weird fiction well.  You have multiple magical systems to draw from such as spirit magic from RQ or Demon magic from stormbringer, and these can help to create separate magical traditions from different cultures.  If you include sanity and spells from CoC then dabbling in the black art is truly perilous.  Like BoL, it requires a bit of judgment from the GM in when and how PCs learn magic, but its more likely to backfire on the PCs than it is to break the game.

At any rate, Magic seems one of the hardest things to "get right" for the Hyborian Age.  I'd be interested to hear how other people's favored Conan system handles magic.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883735BoL magic can work well, but because it is a player driven improv system, you need a very good GM to keep it under control.  BoL sorcery requires good GM judgment (and that can be good or bad depending if your GM gets it or not) or it can be overly powerful, even game-wrecking, in my experience.

Atlantis 2nd Age shares a lot with BoL though it is more built up and adds more genre specific flavour. Magic is no exception.

Magic effects are free form but there are specific guidelines for each meaning that though magic is unpredictable it is neither improv nor unbalanced. It is also dangerous to use, but mostly when the caster is pushed (such as when facing a mighty chewed barbarian intent on their blood).

Cool things include a focus on magical traditions based on real world beliefs to frame magical effects without limiting them. There is also rules for powerful ritual magic and alchemy. Finally, worship of gods has its own set of supernatural effects that are very different to magic, being both more subtle and potentially more powerful.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883735So, how does your favored system handle Hyborian Age Magic?

As noted in an older thread.

Probably the best system to model is Call of Cthulhu as Lovecraftian magic is about the same as Hyborian magic. The more you use it the more your sanity tends to slip. But using warding items and sigils usually does not. Both also focus a-lot on summoning things.

TSR Conan has you right out the gate a little loony if you start with or even pick up actual magic.

Though D&D/Vancian magic can fill in as most Hyborian/Lovecraftian magic was pretty reliable.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883692So a search and read what Estar and Alexander have said about Hit Points. Or not.  Don't have the energy to do Abstract vs. Dissociated the 1200th time.

TL/DR;
A crappy, over-abstracted model that doesn't work very well does not mean it's not representing something completely inside the setting.

When it comes to "what HP are meant to be", I prefer to listen to Gronan. And I get the above statement. Which might be read as being part of the setting, but then you're definitely engaging in an "use narrative mechanics immersively" exercise;).

Quote from: Madprofessor;883735So, how does your favored system handle Hyborian Age Magic?

This is slightly tangential, but IMHO most of the listed systems above struggle to do Hyborian Age magic well.  Certainly Vancian systems or systems where there is little risk or cost are poor fits.  Furthermore, just about any magic system that follows particular reliable formulas or structures feels - unmagical.

43 AD/Warband has a system where you sacrifice to your gods, or the dark forces you serve, for power. The gain is based on the Maximum Hits of the creature and its Fate attribute (unless including the Fate was my own houserule, not sure on that account).
Interestingly, you could count Conan as benefitting from powerful magic, in that he is constantly sacrificing to Crom by proving his valour. Depends on how you want to treat it;).
In all cases, it's magic created for an Ancient World setting, and adds British Isles magic. I doubt you'd get a better fit any time soon:p.

QuoteThe original TSR Conan basically had no magic system, only guidelines about how a GM could create spells and some consequences for PCs who trifle with sorcery.  Its quite cool, but the GM must do all the work as nothing is done for you.

You either do that, and it's a non-system, or you get reliable formulas and structures, called "rules". Alas, there's no way around it, IMO:).

QuoteBoL magic can work well, but because it is a player driven improv system, you need a very good GM to keep it under control.  BoL sorcery requires good GM judgment (and that can be good or bad depending if your GM gets it or not) or it can be overly powerful, even game-wrecking, in my experience.

BoL is just easy to wreck IME. Then again, getting a powerful PC is fully in genre, as far as I'm concerned.

QuoteBRP magic works well, I think, because it is practically a non-system and it is completely open ended.  Nothing is scaled, but there are a ton of spells (in all the various products) most of which fit weird fiction well.  You have multiple magical systems to draw from such as spirit magic from RQ or Demon magic from stormbringer, and these can help to create separate magical traditions from different cultures.  If you include sanity and spells from CoC then dabbling in the black art is truly perilous.  Like BoL, it requires a bit of judgment from the GM in when and how PCs learn magic, but its more likely to backfire on the PCs than it is to break the game.

As a note, since REH was in correspondence with Lovecraft, CoC magic should be more than fine. Indeed, I'd be tempted to lift the CoC magic and add the Demon Magic from Stormbringer/Elric (I think Stormbringer 4e was reputed to have the more Moorcockian magic, right?), if I ever managed to find Stormbringer in PDF.
Demon magic would be solely for the "good" religions:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;883692So a search and read what Estar and Alexander have said about Hit Points. Or not.  Don't have the energy to do Abstract vs. Dissociated the 1200th time.

TL/DR;
A crappy, over-abstracted model that doesn't work very well does not mean it's not representing something completely inside the setting.

I will repeat it.

In Chainmail, a early 70s miniature wargame, in combat, one hit killed one warrior or stand of warrior. A Hero took 4 hits to kill, and a Super-Hero took 8 hits to kill. Along with that a Hero was worth four ordinary veteran warriors, a Super-Hero was worth eight veteran warriors.

In D&D this was expanded. One hit did 1d6 damage. A veteran warrior was given 1d6+1 hit points. A Hero now had 4d6 hit points, and a Super-Hero was given 8d6+2 hit points. Plus intervening levels were filled in with Warrior, Swordsmen, Swashbuckler, etc.

Hit points by themselves have no context, you have to look at the hit dice used to roll them to understand what they equate too. A 7th level wizard could absorb hits equal to four warriors and fought as a Hero with -1 on the die roll (2d6).

All of this was focused on number of attacks and the amount of damage a character could takes. In terms of being able to hit something a 4th level fighter was NOT four times better than a ordinary warrior.

This was D&D's system of abstracting combat. The problem was that none of this was explained well. The average would have had to own and played Chainmail, then OD&D to get the abstraction. If you came in straight into roleplaying with OD&D by itself, or later Basic D&D or AD&D it wasn't obvious why there was hit points, AC and all that.

This fact is what lead others, (Chivalry & Sorcery, Runequest, etc) to come up with system that made more sense to them.

But now with the internet, PDFs and advancement of D&D scholarship, we can see exactly how D&D abstracts the real world of medieval combat and why it works the way it does.

Quote from: AsenRG;883785When it comes to "what HP are meant to be", I prefer to listen to Gronan.

By all means do that. But then again the original material is out there for you to read and to come to your own conclusion. Everything I laid out can found in books that are readily available.

In chainmail the basic mechanic was a to hit roll based on the troop type versus troop type. Part of what made a specific troop type was the armor they wore.

In the man to man section, the to hit roll was again a result of cross-index the weapon used versus the armor worn. This is obviously the direct ancestor of the alternative combat system in OD&D where the chart was the level of the character versus the armor worn.

And Gygax worked in the weapons vs armor comparison back in OD&D with the Greyhawk supplements. You can see how the values in the Greyhawk chart mirror the 2d6 target numbers in Chainmail.

You can see the rules for hero and super-hero in the fantasy supplement section for Chainmail. You can see the fact that the level title for 4th level fighter is Hero and the 8th level title is Super-Hero.

You can see the chainmail-OD&D link in the fact that fighter get one attack per level against creature of 1 HD or lower. Exactly the same mechanic in Chainmail where a Hero attacks as four figures and a Super Hero attacks as eight figures.

I've used Rolemaster (a home brew version of it) for our last campaign which was set in Hyboria.
Why?
Because most of my players are fond of the system and it really worked pretty well. Even if you're a really good fighter one lucky critical by your opponent and it's game over, so players can be cocky but not too cocky. I use something like fate points in our home brew, but it can still get lethal quickly.
We had a blast: a journey across Hyboria so the players received a "look and feel" of the setting (everybody knew who Conan was, but nobody had heard of Hyboria ;)), enough fights and encounters to entertain the lot and a grand finale...:)

Quote from: AsenRG;883785As a note, since REH was in correspondence with Lovecraft, CoC magic should be more than fine. Indeed, I'd be tempted to lift the CoC magic and add the Demon Magic from Stormbringer/Elric (I think Stormbringer 4e was reputed to have the more Moorcockian magic, right?), if I ever managed to find Stormbringer in PDF.
Demon magic would be solely for the "good" religions:D!

The Stormbringer/Elric/Magic World magic systems are a lot of fun, but none of them really reflect magic as it worked in Moorcock's books. The truest version to the books is Elric of Melnibone for MRQII. It's written by Lawrence Whitaker, so it is very easy to blend with RQ6/Mythras.

Ron Edward's Sorcerer & Sword (http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=29500.0) has been touted as a great treatment of the S&S.

If I ran Hyborian Conan - right now - I'd probably leverage Atlantis the 2nd Age. Loved the original which you included - but I think the new one is better.

Barring that - I'd leverage Talislanta 3e or 4e for the system.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883735BoL magic can work well, but because it is a player driven improv system, you need a very good GM to keep it under control.  BoL sorcery requires good GM judgment (and that can be good or bad depending if your GM gets it or not) or it can be overly powerful, even game-wrecking, in my experience.

BoL magic, sorcery in particular, seems to work well if it is relegated to the bad guys. I also feel like the GM can get some control of it by designating specific side effects from the sundry list provided in the game. For example, the "3rd magnitude spell requirement list" seems pretty restrictive:

Personal Ordeal: The caster must undertake ritual scarring and/or mutilation and bloodletting to achieve the right frame of mind for casting

Casting Time: To correctly execute, the spell will take at least 3d6 hours of meditation, chanting, dancing etc.

Ritual Sacrifice: A sentient being must be slaughtered to empower the spell (a beautiful wench would be most suitable, but they tend to have hairy barbarians trailing behind them that frequently take issue with the whole
sacrificing deal...)

The Stars ARE Right: The spell may only be cast when the necessary stars and planets are correctly aligned.

Place of Power: There is only one place known to man where this spell may be cast and – guess what? It's not close!

Demonic Transformation: Casting the spell will permanently (maybe) transform the caster into some horrible demonic form with an even
more clichéd maniacal laugh

Wounds: The magician suffers 2d6+1 lifeblood damage when the spell is cast

Group Ritual: Requires 3d6 assistants, each with Magician 0 or higher

You pile one or two of THOSE on a PC caster, it's quite the undertaking. Granted, what constitutes "3rd magnitude" is not 100% codified, but that certainly looks like some decent control mechanisms.

Quote from: estar;883805By all means do that. But then again the original material is out there for you to read and to come to your own conclusion. Everything I laid out can found in books that are readily available.

Yes, I know, but seriously, man - I have compared them:). It looks to me that your explanation is an ex post facto one, while Gronan's is how it was meant to be.
Yes, I know it started as a wargaming system, I just suspect that this doesn't preclude it from being adapted to model Eroll Flynn movies.

QuoteYou can see the rules for hero and super-hero in the fantasy supplement section for Chainmail. You can see the fact that the level title for 4th level fighter is Hero and the 8th level title is Super-Hero.

I could, after they release it in PDF, you mean:D. But I know most of the basics from threads like this one.

QuoteYou can see the chainmail-OD&D link in the fact that fighter get one attack per level against creature of 1 HD or lower. Exactly the same mechanic in Chainmail where a Hero attacks as four figures and a Super Hero attacks as eight figures.

Agreed. The problem is in the fact that the same fighter also can suffer hits that would kill 8 mortals...and yet when he rests, he doesn't recover X HP per level, he just recovers X HP. See also: Cure Light Wounds not becoming more efficient on higher level characters.
Thus, I'm forced to conclude HP are either "meat points", and the fighter has been getting more resistant to damage (possibly by becoming like a sumo wrestler?), or that it's an out-of-game mechanic that doesn't need to simulate anything.

Quote from: Baulderstone;883810The Stormbringer/Elric/Magic World magic systems are a lot of fun, but none of them really reflect magic as it worked in Moorcock's books. The truest version to the books is Elric of Melnibone for MRQII. It's written by Lawrence Whitaker, so it is very easy to blend with RQ6/Mythras.

Thanks for the advice:)!

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;883811Ron Edward's Sorcerer & Sword (http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=29500.0) has been touted as a great treatment of the S&S.

And indeed it is, even if you're not using Sorcerer;).

Quote from: AsenRG;883862Thus, I'm forced to conclude HP are either "meat points", and the fighter has been getting more resistant to damage (possibly by becoming like a sumo wrestler?), or that it's an out-of-game mechanic that doesn't need to simulate anything.

or, you miss the real answer, that it's an in-game mechanic that failed at adequately expressing the concept in all situations it needs to.

An IC mechanic that fails can be just as disruptive to IC Immersion as an OOC mechanic can.  It doesn't mean it's not still attempting to model something 100% inside the setting.  It just doesn't do it very well.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Cranebump
BoL magic, sorcery in particular, seems to work well if it is relegated to the bad guys. I also feel like the GM can get some control of it by designating specific side effects from the sundry list provided in the game. For example, the "3rd magnitude spell requirement list" seems pretty restrictive:

Personal Ordeal: The caster must undertake ritual scarring and/or mutilation and bloodletting to achieve the right frame of mind for casting

Casting Time: To correctly execute, the spell will take at least 3d6 hours of meditation, chanting, dancing etc.

Ritual Sacrifice: A sentient being must be slaughtered to empower the spell (a beautiful wench would be most suitable, but they tend to have hairy barbarians trailing behind them that frequently take issue with the whole
sacrificing deal...)

The Stars ARE Right: The spell may only be cast when the necessary stars and planets are correctly aligned.

Place of Power: There is only one place known to man where this spell may be cast and – guess what? It's not close!

Demonic Transformation: Casting the spell will permanently (maybe) transform the caster into some horrible demonic form with an even
more clichéd maniacal laugh

Wounds: The magician suffers 2d6+1 lifeblood damage when the spell is cast

Group Ritual: Requires 3d6 assistants, each with Magician 0 or higher

You pile one or two of THOSE on a PC caster, it's quite the undertaking. Granted, what constitutes "3rd magnitude" is not 100% codified, but that certainly looks like some decent control mechanisms.

I'm not knocking the system.  I like it! The requirements you posted here are great example of the flavor.  I'm just saying that its easily abused if the GM isn't on top of things. I agree that it work's best for NPC sorcerers.  It can and does work for PC sorcerers too but the GM needs to keep it under control because every new spell a PC comes up with potentially sets a precedent.

An example Simon gives of 3rd magnitude spell is summoning a volcano in the middle of a city. A PC could do this taking wounds and casting time from the list above - a small price to pay for a nuke!  (Technically, players pick their restrictions not the GM). Theoretically, a player could destroy an entire civilization this way in short order.  Not that any reasonable GM would allow a PC to do that.  Even seemingly simple 1st and 2nd mag spells like "hide in plain sight," "create water," or "heat metal" could be game breaking.  I'm just sayin the RAW allows for anything and the GM has to be prepared to get a handle on the bizarro things that players might try to get away with.  The magic system in BoL doesn't run on autopilot like it does in D&D or even Chaosium style games so the GM has to make rulings to get the system to cooperate with a particular setting or else game balance and/or flavor can go out the window.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883930An example Simon gives of 3rd magnitude spell is summoning a volcano in the middle of a city. A PC could do this taking wounds and casting time from the list above - a small price to pay for a nuke!  (Technically, players pick their restrictions not the GM). Theoretically, a player could destroy an entire civilization this way in short order.  Not that any reasonable GM would allow a PC to do that.  Even seemingly simple 1st and 2nd mag spells like "hide in plain sight," "create water," or "heat metal" could be game breaking.  I'm just sayin the RAW allows for anything and the GM has to be prepared to get a handle on the bizarro things that players might try to get away with.  The magic system in BoL doesn't run on autopilot like it does in D&D or even Chaosium style games so the GM has to make rulings to get the system to cooperate with a particular setting or else game balance and/or flavor can go out the window.

All true. What I was proposing was the GM making those rulings by stipulating the requirements, especially for momentous magic. For example, if I wanted to level said city, the GM could determine that I can only cast it on a certain time, with specific materials, at a cost of blood and sacrifice. Feel like someone casting a 3rd magnitude spell has to find out how to do it, rather than decide for themselves.  Of course, you might have to deal with players who feel their "agency" is being destroyed by such a requirement. But S&S magic should carry some sort of a cost, which the system emulates fairly well by mandating one requirement, with no reduction in cost unless you take a SECOND requirement. Nothing that says the GM can't rule that the first requirement is always lost lifeblood (or something to that effect).:-)

(P.S. I think "hide in plain sight" is listed in the Mythic book as a First Magnitude, because it is something anyone with training could learn to do...according to Simon's rules, that is. "Create Water" has to be at least 2nd magnitude -- it's something from nothing. The mythic rules give examples of summoning ships and demons at second level, so that would seem appropos. In a sense, I kinda wish we had some D&D analogues listed in BoL, i.e., "summoning is 2nd magnitude," and so on. So, I definitely understand your concerns with the nebulous and elastic nature of magic in the system. Hard to say no PC magicians, but I could see doing it, if only to make things a bit easier. Alchemy and Miracles seem easier to deal with from a player standpoint.).

QuoteOriginally Posted by AsenRG
Thus, I'm forced to conclude HP are either "meat points", and the fighter has been getting more resistant to damage (possibly by becoming like a sumo wrestler?), or that it's an out-of-game mechanic that doesn't need to simulate anything.

Who/what is "forcing" you? Is it someone here who won't let the issue go, does the impeccable  logic of your sumo wrestler imagery have some kind of power over you, or do you just have an irresistible need to categorize mechanics?

(Edit: sorry, I realize that wasn't very nice)

Hit points represent how much punishment your character can take. That seems obvious.  Like an attribute or a skill they are mathematical representations of in-game objects.  They represent something tangibly in game.  

There are basically two types of HP.  D&D HP which scale with level/hit dice and are a broad measure of how much punishment a character can take, or chaosium style HP which do not scale and represent actual physical damage (your meat points).

In meat point games characters don't get more resistant to damage as they gain XP so your sumo analogy simply does not apply.  In CoC, GURPS, RQ whatever, HP are static, and when you lose HP you have taken physical IC damage. Period.  There is no way you can spin that to be an OoC narrative mechanic.  

D&D HP can represent more than one thing - exhaustion, luck, physical stress, wounds, or whatever - it still measures the punishment that a character can take - it's just over a broader spectrum.  It is still an IC mechanic, in fact it is the same IC mechanic as BRP, it's just covers more things.

...and I don't even care.  Not everything has to be a dichotomy and fall into one artificial category or another.  I mean, what is the point of debating the categorization of HP on this thread. It has been discussed to death elsewhere and isn't really even relevant to "what's your favorite Conan game."  Is it?

We've got like five game theory threads going right now full of narrative vs simulation arguments.  Do we have to turn this into one too?

QuoteOriginally Posted by Cranebump
All true. What I was proposing was the GM making those rulings by stipulating the requirements, especially for momentous magic. For example, if I wanted to level said city, the GM could determine that I can only cast it on a certain time, with specific materials, at a cost of blood and sacrifice. Feel like someone casting a 3rd magnitude spell has to find out how to do it, rather than decide for themselves. Of course, you might have to deal with players who feel their "agency" is being destroyed by such a requirement. But S&S magic should carry some sort of a cost, which the system emulates fairly well by mandating one requirement, with no reduction in cost unless you take a SECOND requirement. Nothing that says the GM can't rule that the first requirement is always lost lifeblood (or something to that effect).:-)

Yup, I agree.  The system works better if the GM picks the costs/consequences.  A player who has a character with the power to level a city, whatever the cost, shouldn't whine about his agency, IMHO.

Player says, "can I do this?" GM says "yes, if..." - seems a lot more reasonable than - player says "I am going to this and it will cost me that."

QuoteIn a sense, I kinda wish we had some D&D analogues listed in BoL, i.e., "summoning is 2nd magnitude," and so on.

Yeah, it would help.  We got a slightly bigger list with Mythic edition, and I can understand the design decision not to include a large comprehensive  list, but such a list would make the game a little more accessible for a lot of groups.  

Back to Hyboria - I don't think improv magic systems are too well suited to the Hyborian Age, in general.  Specific spells make a little more sense to me as sorcerers in the stories worked long and hard for the formulas of their incantations.  Improv magic "feels" like the sorcerer is manipulating some energy force and sculpting it to a desired effect.  It seems a bit off to me.  Of course, you could improv some spell and then narrate, after the fact, how you faced the spider haunted towers of Zamora for the forbidden knowledge that allowed the spell to take shape - but ...nah, that's hardly ideal either.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883933Who/what is "forcing" you? Is it someone here who won't let the issue go, does the impeccable  logic of your sumo wrestler imagery have some kind of power over you, or do you just have an irresistible need to categorize mechanics?

force  (fôrs)
n.
3.
a. Intellectual power or vigor, especially as conveyed in writing or speech.

Kindly use that meaning to get what I'm saying:)! It's too early here for me to engage in the game of semantics (a.k.a. replacing the meaning of words until the statement you dislike makes no sense even to its author) that people on this forum love so much.

Quote(Edit: sorry, I realize that wasn't very nice)

But you still wrote it - and didn't edit it away. Hence, the curt reply.

QuoteHit points represent how much punishment your character can take. That seems obvious.

"Seems obvious" to whom?
If it's obvious, give me an obvious explanation how people learn to endure slashing wounds. "I just killed another goblin, and found 3 GP: I can now suffer one more maximum-power blow from a sword".
To the above, I call bullshit and non-sequitur, from a real world perspective.
Compare with:
"I achieved another game objective - I can now upgrade my stats. Hey, cool, I can now take one more successful attack by a swordsman!"
No references to the real world mean it doesn't have to mean anything in the real world. It just means the Referee has to describe more close misses before he goes down.

Yes - I get it, you're used to describing HP as meat damage. It still makes no sense.

QuoteThere are basically two types of HP.  D&D HP which scale with level/hit dice and are a broad measure of how much punishment a character can take, or chaosium style HP which do not scale and represent actual physical damage (your meat points).

In meat point games characters don't get more resistant to damage as they gain XP so your sumo analogy simply does not apply.  In CoC, GURPS, RQ whatever, HP are static, and when you lose HP you have taken physical IC damage. Period.  There is no way you can spin that to be an OoC narrative mechanic.  

Yes. I specifically said they're not meat points. And then there's games like Dragon Warriors where experience does get you maybe 1 more HP per level, representing being used to pain and moving to minimize the damage (as separate from having better defence, which is a different stat in the game). That's still meat points.

QuoteD&D HP can represent more than one thing - exhaustion, luck, physical stress, wounds, or whatever - it still measures the punishment that a character can take - it's just over a broader spectrum.  It is still an IC mechanic, in fact it is the same IC mechanic as BRP, it's just covers more things.

You contradict yourself.
You said yourself that they represent exhaustion, stress and luck, not just actual damage (and they only represent luck if luck is a renewable resource, that you actually can replenish by resting...yeah, sure). Obviously it's not "the same mechanic" as meat points, because it covers more things. And it fails to be an IC mechanic by covering them under the same umbrella stat.
As I said to CRK: it works better as a narrative mechanic. At least then I know why it makes no sense for anything approaching the real world. And if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...;)

Quote...and I don't even care.  Not everything has to be a dichotomy and fall into one artificial category or another.

QuoteI mean, what is the point of debating the categorization of HP on this thread. It has been discussed to death elsewhere and isn't really even relevant to "what's your favorite Conan game."  Is it?

It began with me correcting CRK on a part of his statement I saw (and still see) as erroneous.

QuoteWe've got like five game theory threads going right now full of narrative vs simulation arguments.  Do we have to turn this into one too?

Well, why do you keep arguing then:D? I wasn't intending to press the matter, either, just set the record straight. But if you keep pushing back, welcome to Newton's Third Law!

Personally, I'd prefer to discuss the 43AD magic. But it's your choice.

D&D Hit Points model "Meat Points" (modified by Con) and part of "Defensive Fighting Skill" (Dex being another part which gets factored into AC).  Both a character's physicality and their fighting skills exist within the setting.

Nearly every other offshoot of D&D addresses many the issues that Hit Points have, but there's no decision my character can make about Hit Points that aren't tied to the setting.  The only real decision any character can make about Hit Points is whether or not to Multi or Dual class into a class that has more, but that's a character choice.

The fact that my drawing of an orange doesn't look like an orange, doesn't make it a drawing of a Harley Davidson.

You can argue that Hit Points completely fail at what they intended to do, and in certain situations, I'd agree they failed completely.  That doesn't mean they ever intended to model something outside the setting.

It almost sounds like you're saying "These things suck so hard at what they are supposed to do, there has to be another reason, right?"  

Nope.  That's why whenever I play D&D I use rules from other clones/flavors to try and plug the holes, or I just say fuck it, because it's a one-shot.

Quote from: AsenRG;883983Personally, I'd prefer to discuss the 43AD magic.

Romans against Britons - I thought of taking a look at 43AD, even though I thought Zenobia, while very good, was, like BoL, a tad light.  I also thought of Savage Worlds - Weird Wars Rome or even Cthulhu: Invictus, of course, now there's Mythic Britain for RQ6/Mythras.

What was awesome about 43AD magic that makes it good for Hyborian Age gaming compared to any of the other games above that you've tried?

QuoteOriginally Posted by AsenRG
Intellectual power or vigor, especially as conveyed in writing or speech. ...Kindly use that meaning to get what I'm saying

Yes,yes I am truly stunned by your "intellectual power especially as conveyed in writing."  Your dizzying intellect or my thick-headedness must be why your arguments make no sense to me. :rolleyes: :D

On a more serious note, we seem to have such vastly different perspectives and experiences that it is difficult to come to terms on what seem to be simple concepts to each of us.  As I said, your argument about HP makes no sense, to me, at all.  I am not sure why I think I can explain to you what does make sense. You're obviously not interested. It is just maddening to see these types of arguments come up over and over again, and I foolishly sometimes get sucked into the idea that at some point - logic should prevail.  

I respect your perspective. I wouldn't mind learning about where you are coming from, I just get tired of every RPG discussion being turned into a narrative/simulationist categorization battle for which, more often than not, you are leading the narrativist charge.

QuoteYou contradict yourself.
You said yourself that they represent exhaustion, stress and luck, not just actual damage (and they only represent luck if luck is a renewable resource, that you actually can replenish by resting...yeah, sure). Obviously it's not "the same mechanic" as meat points, because it covers more things. And it fails to be an IC mechanic by covering them under the same umbrella stat.
As I said to CRK: it works better as a narrative mechanic. At least then I know why it makes no sense for anything approaching the real world...

To the above, I call bullshit and non-sequitur, from a real world perspective.

I am not contradicting myself.  You are introducing two elements (realism and mechanical breadth) that have nothing to do with the IC or OoC nature of HP, or frankly of any mechanic.

I am going to try here one more time to explain where I am coming from and maybe that will explain why your argument makes no sense to me:

1) Whether or not a mechanic simulates reality well has nothing at all to do with whether the mechanic is IC or OoC.  If we are playing supers where I can fly, and you can shoot laser beams from your face - that's not realistic.  But it can still be IC.  I could play a sentient radio-active snack cake but my health points are still directly relevant to my unrealistic character.  My twinkie is aware of his own health and has the power to use and influence it.  As a player, knowing the health points of my character helps my immersion because it gives me knowledge about my character that my character would be aware of and able to affect.

2) The number of things that a mechanic covers (its breadth) has nothing to do with whether a mechanic is IC or OoC.  GURPS uses strength to cover D&D's STR, CON and HP.  D&D uses 3 mechanics to do what GURPS does with STR (STR, CON and HP).  GURPS STR is much broader than D&D's STR but they are both IC mechanics.  Knowing how strong my character is knowledge that is shared between player and character.  If my character had only 2 stats, say physical and mental, those are still IC stats even though they are very broad and don't do a very good job at giving the player enough info.

IC mechanics are things that the character can directly experience or affect.  They link the player and character together and cause players to say things in first person like "I am stronger than you" or "I am dying here."  

OoC mechanics are things that the character has no control over or direct experience with and which break down the immersion of the player into the character.  They cause the player to say things that the character would have no knowledge of or power over like "there is a shotgun behind this bar" or "the gods favor the daring."

D&D HP are broad and unrealistic (they drive me crazy and I think they do a poor job of accomplishing what they are attempting to do) but they are still IC.

Maybe, you can understand the above.  Maybe you can't.  Maybe you just don't want to.

QuoteIt began with me correcting CRK on a part of his statement I saw (and still see) as erroneous.

Exactly - you introduced the argument even though it has no place in this thread.

QuoteWell, why do you keep arguing then? I wasn't intending to press the matter, either, just set the record straight.

You did press the matter.  You created the argument and then kept pushing it! You made 4 long argumentative posts about it telling experienced GMs, like estar and Krueger, how they had no understanding of the games they play, arguing that you know their games and play style better than they do, before I "pushed back.":banghead:

QuoteBut if you keep pushing back, welcome to Newton's Third Law!

Fair enough.  It was my mistake to get involved. I guess I should just bow to your self-proclaimed "intellectual power" and let you walk all over me and tell me how my play style is all wrong on every thread.  :rant:

QuotePersonally, I'd prefer to discuss the 43AD magic. But it's your choice.

By all means.  Let's get back on topic. Tell me why you like the 43 AD magic system and why you think it is a good fit for the Hyborian Age.:D

Fantasy Craft.

With the caveat that I'm not running Hyboria per se, but a far future setting inspired by Conan stories as well as Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique.

As for why: highly tunable, and the classes, skill system, and action dice seem to fit the flow of the action.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883869or, you miss the real answer, that it's an in-game mechanic that failed at adequately expressing the concept in all situations it needs to.

I think it perfect for what it does, telling you that a 4th level Hero is 4 times harder to kill (on average) than a ordinary warrior.

But... it is a valid point to say "I don't my setting works well with the idea that a 4th level fighter is four times harder to kill than a ordinary warrior." You can also view it from standpoint that a 1st level character is not a ordinary member of his profession but rather a novice.

My view is that first level characters are novices partially influenced by the fact that how it was presented in original Judges Guild City-State and Wilderlands products.

Because of the weakness of 1st level D&D character my opinion is that this became the standard view and the various editions of D&D has been trying to hammer out the inconsistency ever since.

And for tabletop RPG gamers who want settings or genre campaign that feature a more realistic progression of experience, this led to development of alternatives like Runequest where experienced characters are better but not 4 times harder to kill after a first few sessions of the campaign have played out.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883963Back to Hyboria - I don't think improv magic systems are too well suited to the Hyborian Age, in general.  Specific spells make a little more sense to me as sorcerers in the stories worked long and hard for the formulas of their incantations.  Improv magic "feels" like the sorcerer is manipulating some energy force and sculpting it to a desired effect.  It seems a bit off to me.  Of course, you could improv some spell and then narrate, after the fact, how you faced the spider haunted towers of Zamora for the forbidden knowledge that allowed the spell to take shape - but ...nah, that's hardly ideal either.

I see what you're getting at here. Not to belabor the point, but I think player and GM running BoL could get together at the beginning and agree to how the player's magic actually works in practice, based on their character conception, and make that the basic rules for the character.

For example, say I am, for all intents and purchases a sort of "voodoo priest" who requires some form of blood, marking and sacrifice. I could propose that all my first magnitude spells use "inanimate materials" (parts of the object I am affecting, which are consumed in the casting) and require loss of life blood. My second magnitude spells could all require "ritual sacrifice" (of specific animals) and "permanent focus" (tattooing the body using the animal's blood and maybe my own). 3rd magnitude could one up this with greater ritual sacrifice (perhaps a person, or a great deal of my own Life blood) and permanent scarring (wounds created from drawing blood).

True, the system itself isn't inherently set up thist way, but I feel like the skeleton is there to use as one sees fit. The only real improv then becomes the determination of magnitude and any additional requirements the GM might stipulate. I feel like you have a better shot at creating the feel you're looking for with the toolkit, rather than trying to adapt codified spells from a rule set. Imbeded spell descriptions DO reduce headaches (and arguments), for sure. But it seems to me, in the various incarnations of Conan I've read (from the original stories, to the Thomas/Windsor comics) feature many different types of mysticism. I feel like an open system might actually be better in the long run, when it comes to genre/setting emulation. Shape to fit, in other words.

Quote from: estar;884027I think it perfect for what it does, telling you that a 4th level Hero is 4 times harder to kill (on average) than a ordinary warrior.

Usually, when the OOC charge is leveled, it comes from falling damage and healing rates, the biggest holes in HPs, usually not the "Some Meat and Mainly Fighting Ability" definition.

Like many others, my choice for this is a clear RQ 6/Mythras. Many good reasons outlined above. I will say that it has a great balance between a combat system that lends itself to visceral, pulse pounding action, severed limbs flying, just like in the REH stories, but that combat can also result in non-death outcomes, through use of things like Compel Surrender, which seems in-genre to me as well. Also, if you like that sort of thing, PCs have Luck Points to do things like upgrade having your skull caved in by that sling stone to just being knocked out. Which again, fits the source material, as discussed.

The magic system, while needing to be dialed to your preference, works really, really well. Sacrifices, places of power, taking Fatigue or Hit Point damage to push beyond your MP resources: it's all in there. I would add the caveat that it works even better if you include the longer casting times and the Bad Things table from Monster Island in the mix. This gives appropriate Ritual casting for most spells, but allows you to risk horrific consequences to cast faster. See also the gods of the colonists in MI and how Propitiation works for good flavourful Clark Ashton Smith religions.

The fact that magic can come from vastly varied sources, demon pacts, spirits, grimoires, hieroglyphs on a stele in a jungle temple, and that each source provides a restrained spell list also works well. And there are good rules for summoning, or the hint that Animism can be used to create Demonologist characters.

Also interesting is the idea of putting together a Mystic tradition that models a preternaturally powerful and panther-reflexed Barbarian. His Meditation could be carousing and wenching, and you could give him the ability to extend his stamina and fortitude using his Mystic abilities, beyond normal human capacities.

So yeah, Mythras for the win, I say!

Quote from: markfitz;884034Also interesting is the idea of putting together a Mystic tradition that models a preternaturally powerful and panther-reflexed Barbarian. His Meditation could be carousing and wenching, and you could give him the ability to extend his stamina and fortitude using his Mystic abilities, beyond normal human capacities.

Heh, that's interesting, especially if you posit that Crom does exist as a deity and you take Conan's words "at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul." in a more literal tone.

Quote from: CRKrueger;884036Heh, that's interesting, especially if you posit that Crom does exist as a deity and you take Conan's words "at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul." in a more literal tone.

Yes, that's the ticket!

I've actually already done it for a Fionn and the Fianna style warrior from Irish legend. Think it could totally work for Cimmerians ...

Quote from: markfitz;884039Yes, that's the ticket!

I've actually already done it for a Fionn and the Fianna style warrior from Irish legend. Think it could totally work for Cimmerians ...

You could also do some stuff with the Aesir/Vanir as well, springing from the argument that Frost-Giant's Daughter proves Ymir is real, thus the Norse Gods as we know them today are probably legends of ancient kings of the Aesir and Vanir who were giant-blooded, etc...

As races rise and fall from Apedom to Humankind again and again, there's certainly suggestions that certain individuals or subraces aren't quite human or have some non-humans somewhere in the family tree.

Hell the fact that Howard's world was loosely based on theories of science we've discarded as false or that he simply didn't know (like Plate Tectonics) puts his world even more firmly into the HPL/CAS fantasic side, no matter how grounded in history his racial, cultural, and nation analogues were.

I think people go a little too overboard in the "no magic in True Howard" side (magic's all over the damn place),  as if the Savage Sword Conan was just something completely and totally different, a difference of kind, as opposed to degree.

Absolutely. The Aesir and Vanir could make for great Mystic warriors too.

And I agree on the magic and non human blood in some of the races. The setting is dripping with the supernatural, as he wrote it.

Forgot to mention, Conan has also been part of some great Brotherhoods, and Cults are also very well deadly with in Mythras ...

Mongoose Traveller. The die mechanic is skill-based, which I like. And you can add any career/skills to the game for any setting. Barbarian is one of the defaults already to work from for a Conan game. 2nd Edition Traveller has more archaic weapons.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Cranebump
I think player and GM running BoL could get together at the beginning and agree to how the player's magic actually works in practice, based on their character conception, and make that the basic rules for the character...

I feel like the skeleton is there to use as one sees fit...

 I feel like an open system might actually be better in the long run, when it comes to genre/setting emulation. Shape to fit, in other words.

I agree.  The tools are there to make it work.  If the GM and player can work together to define the PC sorcerer's magical tradition (Vendhyan hypnotist or priest of Jhebbal Sag or whatever) then it should be pretty easy for a GM to say, OK, here are the basic parameters of what your magic is like, what you are taught, and the kinds of things you can do, and here are the usual/costs consequences.  If you want to do something outside of those parameters then you may need to develop a new career, find an in-game mentor, tutor, ancient scroll or something to attempt it.  Like you said, it is stepping on player agency a bit according to RAW but with a cooperative and reasonable group that is willing to put in a little work, it should work brilliantly - better than most magic systems where magic is codified into a single structure.  Meanwhile, I think the GM should feel less bound with NPC sorcerers and supernatural events which are the primary antagonists and hooks in Hyborian Age stories.

QuoteOriginally Posted by markfitz
The setting is dripping with the supernatural, as he wrote it.

Yeah, the central plot hook of every Conan or Kull story that I can think of is some supernatural event, creature, plot or other strangeness.  The supernatural is critical to the genre, but it is a little tough to put your finger on Hyborian magic and define it as a thing.  It's not "low-magic" or "high-magic." I don't know what you would call it.  

As you clearly know, Howard drew from history, mythology, the occult, and of course his pen-pals and colleagues.  RQ6/BRP has a great framework for reflecting the many facets of Hyborian Age supernatural weirdness.  You and Krueger are throwing out some great ideas here, I'm going to have to read up on my RQ6 cult-fu to catch up and steel some of your ideas.:hatsoff:

QuoteOriginally posted by Caesar Salad

Fantasy Craft.

With the caveat that I'm not running Hyboria per se, but a far future setting inspired by Conan stories as well as Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique.

As for why: highly tunable, and the classes, skill system, and action dice seem to fit the flow of the action.

hmmm... can't say I familiar with this one, and I like toolkits.  I'll have to check it out.  Is it a d20 SRD thing?

I voted Whatever Else since I use GURPS which has top notch combat, a really really good Conan sourcebook and several solo adventures that are pretty easy to convert to group adventures

When I played Beyond Thunder River back in the 3e days it simply felt like Conan combat should feel.

Quote from: Madprofessor;884074Yeah, the central plot hook of every Conan or Kull story that I can think of is some supernatural event, creature, plot or other strangeness.  The supernatural is critical to the genre, but it is a little tough to put your finger on Hyborian magic and define it as a thing.  It's not "low-magic" or "high-magic." I don't know what you would call it.  

As you clearly know, Howard drew from history, mythology, the occult, and of course his pen-pals and colleagues.  RQ6/BRP has a great framework for reflecting the many facets of Hyborian Age supernatural weirdness.  You and Krueger are throwing out some great ideas here, I'm going to have to read up on my RQ6 cult-fu to catch up and steel some of your ideas.:hatsoff:

I'm tempted to characterise it as something like "esoteric magic" rather than high or low. I agree, the high or low of it is somehow not the point. As I said, I like the RQ approach of there being many ways to magic, with different ways of functioning, different power sources too. Ancient jewel artifacts or skull-relics as sources of Magic Points are nice too. I tend to think that the take on Divine Magic could actually work as well, as there's some nice stuff in there about only being able to regain MP through worship, sacrifice etc in holy/unholy places. I can imagine a lot of propitiating of dark deities, demons and other cult things, but the mainstream gods only providing vague boost-your-confidence type spells, that work more psychologically than supernaturally.
The darker your God, the more likely it is to provide Eldritch powers, and thus corrupt you ....

I'd call it eldritch magic. That's why the CoC magic and pantheon is such a good fit.

Quote from: Madprofessor;884074hmmm... can't say I familiar with this one, and I like toolkits.  I'll have to check it out.  Is it a d20 SRD thing?

Fantasy Craft was based on the OGL. But more like a total rewrite of the entire rules with a big focus on modularity for both DM and players. It changes so much that it is not very compatible with be standard 3.x srd anymore ( but does provide conversion notes). It is more streamlined(but still very crunchy) and introduces different optional setting rules for the DM to switch on/of. I have no real experience with it at the table. But my impession is that you could call it a D20 GURPS. The sals pitch for the system is "Your dungeon! Your dragon!".

The best Hyborian campaign I've run was for GURPS (a big omission from the poll, given that it is a published product line for a major game system!).

The best one that could exist would be some form of BRP, with lots of content from CoC (Conan stories are horror, not heroic fantasy). You can obviously cobble this together from various sources, but it seems like we'll never really get it as a product.

Quote from: Larsdangly;884159... Conan stories are horror, not heroic fantasy...

They got parts of both.

Quote from: Teodrik;884163They got parts of both.

And others. REH liberally took from many genres.

Savage Worlds would be my choice now, as voted.

Before I moved to Savage Worlds for most my games, it would have been Gurps.

Way back when, I actually ran and played a bit of the TSR Conan game and recall having a fair bit of fun, though I recall few of the details as to why.

Quote from: Brander;884219Savage Worlds would be my choice now, as voted.

Before I moved to Savage Worlds for most my games, it would have been Gurps.

Way back when, I actually ran and played a bit of the TSR Conan game and recall having a fair bit of fun, though I recall few of the details as to why.

So for Savage Worlds what supplements, optional rules, magic systems, etc... would you use?

Quote from: CRKrueger;884225So for Savage Worlds what supplements, optional rules, magic systems, etc... would you use?

Sorry for taking the question but here is what I have gathered since I have been thinking about going over to SW for future hyborian gaming:

Realms of Cthulhu would be fitting. For the same kind of reasons people tend to add stuff from CoC into BRP/RQ for Hyborian Age campaigns.Mythos creatures, magic, sanity system (the usual suspects) and random tables for generating your own mythos critters.

The Horror Companion + The Fantasy Companion would work well I think. I have heard the epecially the Horror Companion have fitting magic.

Many people reccommend The Savage World of Solomon Kane as base game and then add to it. Epecially for the magic. This with the Fantasy&Horror Companions and Savage Sword of Conan hack below (and a setting guide like Road of Kings) would be quite complete material for playing in Hyborian Age for a long time.

Savage Sword of Conan is a fan made conversion for Savage Worlds. Good for the critters and random encounter tables but lacks any real twist to magic.
https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://savageheroes.com/conversions/savage%2520sword%2520of%2520conan_online.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjdgoj80LTLAhXlE5oKHRLVAfkQFggeMAE&usg=AFQjCNEs6z1EOrONH2-XZWFXXNxOCx6geA&sig2=OOEapSo0doSHhzZ3gk6i4g

Beasts & Barbarians seems quite a howardesque generic setting book which could do Hyborian Age.It got some genre emulation mechanics and notes on magic.http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/96199/Beasts--Barbarians-Golden-Edition?manufacturers_id=3554&filters=0_0_1600_0_0

I voted for RQ6/Mythras... but after thinking a bit, I'd probably start with Magic World and steal liberally from other BRP-related games, including RQ6.

Quote from: CRKrueger;884225So for Savage Worlds what supplements, optional rules, magic systems, etc... would you use?

To expand on what Teodrik said:

I'd use the setting rules Blood & Guts, Born a Hero, Gritty Damage, Joker's Wild, and No Power Points.  I'd modify the backlash to represent at least a certain amount of corruption from magic, though it would likely be on a spell by spell basis.

Definitely the rituals and Magick from Horror Companion.

I do have Solomon Kane and Beasts and Barbarians, but haven't looked at them deep enough to decide what to use or not use from them.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

BTW, for anyone wanting to do Savage Conan, grab Totems of the Dead...definitely worth it.

Quote from: Madprofessor;884074hmmm... can't say I familiar with this one, and I like toolkits.  I'll have to check it out.  Is it a d20 SRD thing?

Yep. It's a second generation derivative, derived from Spycraft which derived from D&D 3e.

It isn't as magic dependent as D&D; you can tweak the level of magic and several other aspects of the campaign world. Also, the skill system in more central to the mechanics of the game than in D&D, which means to me that you can lean harder on making skills the focus of the challenges in the game (e.g., "I tip over the elephant headed statue" "okay, roll Athletics", etc.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;884260BTW, for anyone wanting to do Savage Conan, grab Totems of the Dead...definitely worth it.

I was vaguely aware of this, so I looked it up on DTRPG and GOD DAMMIT HOW IS THIS NOT A RQ6 SETTING :D

How difficult do you figure conversion would be?

Quote from: CRKrueger;884260BTW, for anyone wanting to do Savage Conan, grab Totems of the Dead...definitely worth it.

I in fact just did :-)

Thanks for the recommendation.

Quote from: The Butcher;884267I was vaguely aware of this, so I looked it up on DTRPG and GOD DAMMIT HOW IS THIS NOT A RQ6 SETTING :D

How difficult do you figure conversion would be?

Well some of the stuff is reskinned SW, some of it is converted stuff liberally inspired by Mongoose Conan.  I think there's enough in RQ6 to get you close for a lot of the things (it would have been a helluva lot easier with the additional 400+ spells from AiG to compare against, but oh well).

But I mean if Conan is tired of ruling Aquilonia, and Zenobia dies giving birth to his 5th or 6th kid, he leaves the throne to Conn and crosses the sea to DIE LIKE A FUCKING BOSS...this is where he goes.

You can have a have a Skinwalker warrior and his Deer Woman lover riding a Mammoth with a Frost Giant Skull for a helmet, a Wendol pelt cape, an Obisidan Club taken from a Priest of the Smoking Mirror, and a Kachina Spirit Advisor.  Your partner could be a mystic/monk from Khitai who worships the Elephant God (Yoga after his final enchantment).  You can measure your wealth in War Captives.  It doesn't get any better than this, and I haven't even started in on the dinosaurs yet.

Take what we know of Pre-Columbian cultures from the Inuit to the Mayans and from the Pacific Coastal tribes to the Atlantic Coastal tribes, toss them in a Cauldron from the Isle of Atlantis, and use Lovecraft and Howard as the recipe books. (You think Set is scary in a S&S setting, try Tezcatlipoca or Tlaloc.)

I've got Monster Island in my Hyborian Age campaign and one of the places the Smoking Mirrors can take you is definitely The Untamed Lands.

I like their Corruption and Backlash rules, they have cool Blood Magic, but all of Pete's Blood Magic from Legend is already in my campaign.  

The difference between True Magic (the red road) and Sorcery (the black road) is interesting and I've wondered about a way to tie that into Khemet and Deshret and apply that to the true nature of Stygia and Set somehow.

They have Seidr and Runecasting, but I already have those present from MRQII Vikings and Mythic Iceland.

All the gods, empires, tribes, secret societies, brotherhoods, etc... seems tailor-made for Mythras with a Cult system at it's core.

So Loz and Pete: GOD DAMMIT HOW IS THIS NOT A RQ6 SETTING :D

Fuck you Kruger and your fucking pitches. Added this to the cart. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;884281(it would have been a helluva lot easier with the additional 400+ spells from AiG to compare against, but oh well).

:mad:

Quote from: CRKrueger;884281I've got Monster Island in my Hyborian Age campaign and one of the places the Smoking Mirrors can take you is definitely The Untamed Lands.

Pretty sure "God of the Smoking Mirror" is one of Tezcatlipoca's epithets.

What's the deal with the Atlanteans?

Quote from: The Butcher;884286Fuck you Kruger and your fucking pitches. Added this to the cart. :D
Pretty sure "God of the Smoking Mirror" is one of Tezcatlipoca's epithets.
What's the deal with the Atlanteans?

Just look at the monsterlist in the GMs guide.

Yeah Tezcatlipoca is the Smoking Mirror/God of Smoking Mirror.

Atlanteans are like Ur-Babylonians, magical and ruled by a God-King, but also isolated, decadent and in decline like Melniboneans.  Tying them into Howard, they could be descended from the original Atlanteans, before their powerful magicks unleashed the first great cataclysm in the Epoch before Kull.  One branch became the Kull Atlanteans->Cimmerians, the other branch stayed truer to their original sorcerous ways.

QuoteOriginally posted by Larsdangly
(Conan stories are horror, not heroic fantasy)

That's an interesting claim.

I think it demonstrates at least a mild distinction in approach to the power level of gaming in the Hyborian Age, and therefore system of choice.  Some (perhaps leaning towards the RQ6/BRP/GURPS crowd) see the setting as a gritty mix of quasi-history and eldritch weirdness (horror), while others (perhaps more of the the BoL/Savage Worlds crowd) see it as a highly cinematic, swashbuckling and heroic.  

In my games at least, players do not expect to be, or want to be handed Conan or Conan level characters complete with story immunity against loss of life, limb and sanity.  They may trod the jeweled thrones of the earth or rise to be kings by their own hand, but if they do, they do it from humble and mortal beginnings. PCs are above the cut, but they are not drawn in four color.

Other groups, I suppose, prefer to have a party full of Conans or Conan powered characters with heroic powers, beginnings, immunities and destinies.

Perhaps it's probably not as black and white as all that.

Howard drew from all kinds of influences so it is hard to categorize his work.  I tend to agree with what you are saying, but there is probably room in the stories for multiple interpretations.

I'm not really that big a Conan fan, but I would either use D&D or BRP (probably the Elric rules).

So who is going to write the Unofficial RQ 6 Conan RPG???

Quote from: Madprofessor;884025Yes,yes I am truly stunned by your "intellectual power especially as conveyed in writing."  Your dizzying intellect or my thick-headedness must be why your arguments make no sense to me. :rolleyes: :D

If that's your approach, I'll just leave it to you to decide which one it is, and we can move on:D.

QuoteI respect your perspective. I wouldn't mind learning about where you are coming from, I just get tired of every RPG discussion being turned into a narrative/simulationist categorization battle for which, more often than not, you are leading the narrativist charge.

Me, leading the narrativist charge? OMG...
The guy that works to make Fate simulationist is the leading narrativist around here?
Man, there really aren't many narrativists around here, it seems... (And you have never seen me leading a charge, or you wouldn't think that I'm doing anything of the sort).


No, there's definitely no use addressing your arguments (especially since you seem to have missed a crucial part of the post you replied to).
Just FYI, the part about GURPS using ST to cover for D&D's Str, Con and HP is outright untrue. It uses your ST, HT and your Parry for those goals, though they don't map cleanly to each other.

QuoteD&D HP are broad and unrealistic (they drive me crazy and I think they do a poor job of accomplishing what they are attempting to do) but they are still IC.

That's an example of why I said you didn't read my post.
As I said, there comes a point when a mechanic has so many holes in its IC consequences, that it's better to assume it's an OOC mechanic. HP are right there.

If you're trying to persuade me that they work better as an IC mechanic: I beg to differ. What in hell does a character feel upon gaining 8 more HP? "My flesh just got harder"? "I am now skilled enough to avoid injury from a very good blow, or even from a sneak attack"?

If you're trying to persuade me that they were meant to be an IC mechanic: people that were there said otherwise. You weren't there.

And they still work better as an OOC mechanic. Then those of us that can ignore some amount of those, can just roleplay as if there was no "HP screen" in front of the characters, and mark HP off when told. But trying to internalise them only works if the setting has biology that works on wildly divergent principles.

QuoteFair enough.  It was my mistake to get involved. I guess I should just bow to your self-proclaimed "intellectual power" and let you walk all over me and tell me how my play style is all wrong on every thread.  :rant:

I don't remember telling you how your playstyle is wrong. For that matter, I don't know your playstyle.
If you reach that conclusion from my general stance on HP, I'm sorry, but that's your conclusion.
But if you're not even going to read what I posted, it was your mistake to get involved.

QuoteBy all means.  Let's get back on topic. Tell me why you like the 43 AD magic system and why you think it is a good fit for the Hyborian Age.:D

Quote from: CRKrueger;883989Romans against Britons - I thought of taking a look at 43AD, even though I thought Zenobia, while very good, was, like BoL, a tad light.  I also thought of Savage Worlds - Weird Wars Rome or even Cthulhu: Invictus, of course, now there's Mythic Britain for RQ6/Mythras.

What was awesome about 43AD magic that makes it good for Hyborian Age gaming compared to any of the other games above that you've tried?

The importance of sacrifice to the gods.
It's a central concept in 43 AD magic, and in Hyboria. With some adaptation, if you want to get Seth's help, you can...but make sure to provide sacrificial victims. It's just such a good fit for "Hour of the Dragon"! The hits you sacrifice determine the strength of the magic...and there's a line towards the end of HotD that says almost literally the same thing:).
And when you add stuff like the abilities of philosophers from Zenobia, you can simulate even a sorcerer using his stupefiants to overcome an angry barbarian king, like in HotD. in fact, most sorcerers in Conan use one of these sources.
You could even allow PCs to use sorcery in that case, and it is much more likely to be seen as an awful thing - since they would need to provide the sacrificial victims:D.

Okay, Asen, peace.  I did read your post(s) and I disagree with your assessment of HP.  I do not know which of your many jumbled arguments is the one you feel that I crucially overlooked.  I also disagreed with the appropriateness of the digression to this thread. I should not have fed into it.  I admit my rookie mistake.  I also admit that I went somewhat overboard in my criticisms which came mostly out of exasperation of yet another interesting thread getting derailed for a mechanics-theory debate that had been done to death elsewhere, and which were not going to get resolved here. I am sorry for that, but I am not going to respond to your specific charges here, perpetuate the argument, and continue my mistake.  Let us, at least for the moment, agree to disagree, and perhaps we can take up the conversation at another time and place :).

By the way, who's "Seth" and why would I sacrifice to him? (just kidding, I shouldn't pick on typos.  I make them too).

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
So who is going to write the Unofficial RQ 6 Conan RPG???

Good question.

I lean slightly towards the BRP/Stormbringer camp (I greatly admire RQ6 but find the combat a little crunchy for taste) and plan to write up my BRP Hyborian Age notes for my group.  But I'd be real nervous about posting an "unofficial" Hyborian Age RPG online.

In any case, I think Markfitz has got a pretty good basic blueprint laid out below.  Of course, the devil is in the details and it would still need a lot of work.

QuoteOriginally posted by Markfitz
Set Magic Point regeneration to 1/week, but allow sacrifices to accumulate MPs, as well as possibly sacred locations or alignments of the moon and so on. No Theism; the gods don't care. Most "Sorcerers" use Folk Magic and trickery. Sorcery gained by placating with unholy entities, or Magic items. Use the Mysticism rules not only for Eastern Mystics but also for preternaturally physically skilled barbarians and such. That way you can have specimens like Conan who can Augment Athletics, Acrobatics, Willpower, or Endurance, and Increase Action Points or Hit Points, Invoke Denial Food, Increase Healing Rate, Invoke Aura of Intimidation, etc to allow them to fight off hordes of foes and survive desert wandering beyond the capabilities of mere mortals. I let my Mystics regenerate Magic Points by Mediating (1/hour), but a Barbarian could do this by Carousing. Done.

Of course, I'd love to here Loz and Pete's suggestions.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885414Okay, Asen, peace.

Peace:).

QuoteI did read your post(s) and I disagree with your assessment of HP.  I do not know which of your many jumbled arguments is the one you feel that I crucially overlooked.

The one that I repeated. But since peace was declared, it doesn't matter.

QuoteI also admit that I went somewhat overboard in my criticisms which came mostly out of exasperation of yet another interesting thread getting derailed for a mechanics-theory debate that had been done to death elsewhere, and which were not going to get resolved here. I am sorry for that, but I am not going to respond to your specific charges here, perpetuate the argument, and continue my mistake.

Good call. I didn't have any desire to discuss that, either;).

QuoteBy the way, who's "Seth" and why would I sacrifice to him? (just kidding, I shouldn't pick on typos.  I make them too).

I would say that it's Seth Ro, and leave you wondering which one...but actually, it was a typo:D! I'm more familiar with the Egyptian spelling of deities than with the Hyborian one, so it's one of a set of mistakes I commit often.

Any opinion on the 43 AD system, as outlined?

Quote from: Madprofessor;885419I lean slightly towards the BRP/Stormbringer camp (I greatly admire RQ6 but find the combat a little crunchy for taste) and plan to write up my BRP Hyborian Age notes for my group.  But I'd be real nervous about posting an "unofficial" Hyborian Age RPG online.

These might be of interest:

http://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/64-conan-character-sheet/
http://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/65-conan-character-creation/
http://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/66-conan-system-summary/

Requires the use of Elric! (or Stormbringer 5th edition), though Magic World or a BRP-flavored game of your choice could be easily utilized.

Quote from: Jason D;885707These might be of interest:

http://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/64-conan-character-sheet/
http://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/65-conan-character-creation/
http://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/66-conan-system-summary/

Requires the use of Elric! (or Stormbringer 5th edition), though Magic World or a BRP-flavored game of your choice could be easily utilized.

Would the BGB be close enough;)?

No matter what your preferred system, as far as Hyborian Age research goes, you really can't lose with the big Closer of the Modiphius KS campaign.

Any "all unlocked books in pdf" backer level($56 minimum) now gets you all the Conan d20 (yes all the old Mongoose Vincent Darlage stuff) in PDF as well.

That KS has now officially entered the "No Brainer" category if you're planning on doing any type of Conan gaming.

^ that is a real steal. how many supplements is that?

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D

These might be of interest:

http://basicroleplaying.org/files/fi...aracter-sheet/
http://basicroleplaying.org/files/fi...cter-creation/
http://basicroleplaying.org/files/fi...ystem-summary/

Yes, they are, and I appreciate your work on them.  Coming from you, they are close enough to "official" that a GM could present them that way to his players if he needed. There is a lot that I would (will) add and a few things that I would change, but they are perfectly playable as is, and will make a nice baseline for me (of course, if this outline was fleshed out and given a full-color book with... I'll shut up now :)).

There used to be another BRP Conan conversion (perhaps on BRP central, perhaps on purple) as well, though I don't seem to be able to find it.

QuoteNo matter what your preferred system, as far as Hyborian Age research goes, you really can't lose with the big Closer of the Modiphius KS campaign.

Any "all unlocked books in pdf" backer level($56 minimum) now gets you all the Conan d20 (yes all the old Mongoose Vincent Darlage stuff) in PDF as well.

That KS has now officially entered the "No Brainer" category if you're planning on doing any type of Conan gaming.

Yup. I'm in! Sheer value has outweighed my other concerns.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885742No matter what your preferred system, as far as Hyborian Age research goes, you really can't lose with the big Closer of the Modiphius KS campaign.

Any "all unlocked books in pdf" backer level($56 minimum) now gets you all the Conan d20 (yes all the old Mongoose Vincent Darlage stuff) in PDF as well.

That KS has now officially entered the "No Brainer" category if you're planning on doing any type of Conan gaming.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885796Yup. I'm in! Sheer value has outweighed my other concerns.

I was in since the start, but I'm glad that you've found it to be valuable as well! As they say, the more, the merrier:)!

And if you run the setting with other systems, so much the better, we only get more diversity and choice, not to mention the opportunity to discuss the superiority of different systems;)!

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885790^ that is a real steal. how many supplements is that?

Looks like 40 d20 books and and 11 and counting for 2d20.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885843Looks like 40 d20 books and and 11 and counting for 2d20.

Which beats even Bundles of Holding:).

Quote from: CRKrueger;885742No matter what your preferred system, as far as Hyborian Age research goes, you really can't lose with the big Closer of the Modiphius KS campaign.

Any "all unlocked books in pdf" backer level($56 minimum) now gets you all the Conan d20 (yes all the old Mongoose Vincent Darlage stuff) in PDF as well.

That KS has now officially entered the "No Brainer" category if you're planning on doing any type of Conan gaming.

Yeah, the entire d20 line in PDF finally moved me to back this thing.  

At the very least I can use some of the background material and scenarios with Crypts and Things or Mythras/RuneQuest 6. :D

Moved from the other Conan thread

QuoteOriginally Posted by Akrasia
Thanks! I was a contributor to C&T.

(My house-rules for S&W were meant to emulate settings like Hyborea, and many of those rules were later integrated by Newt into C&T.)

So "Conan with D&D" is very much the point of C&T!

No problem, and I actually discovered your house rules first (on your blog) and then purchased C&T (as well as Fight On!) because of them.  Your rules are a prime example of the original intent of the game - to make it your own.  The rules adjustments are simple but significant, and get right to the heart of swords and sorcery.  It's fantastic work.

By the way, isn't Newt doing a second edition?

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat

I want to hear more. Also, I want to hear comparisons / contrasts to that Astonishing Swordsman game too.

AS&SH is a great game too. It's very much a reworking of 1e DMG, and PH, pretty much in entirety, for swords and sorcery.  It stays faithful to the spirit of 1e (no small feat!) while making slight adjustments to almost everything.  The art, production and clarity of writing is awesome.  To my mind AS&SH is a little more than a S&S adaptation of 1e, its also a clarification of the baroque mess of that game's rules.

The rules changes in AS&SH are broader (17 new classes and a new set of human "races," for example), while the changes in C&T are fewer but deeper (sanity rules, deadlier combat via fighter options, and dangerous magic).  AS&SH is crunchy, while C&T is lite and to the point.  

I prefer C&T which has a slightly more Hyborian Age vibe and does more with less IMO, but this is just my personal taste.  Both do swords and sorcery well with D&D.

All that said, I don't think classes and levels are the best way to approach the Hyborian Age, but again that's my opinion.

Hero System. Its my go to for cinematic action/adventure and I ran a fairly successful swords and Sorcery game with it several years ago. There's even a supplement (Valorian Age) that would help.

Quote from: Madprofessor;886110Moved from the other Conan thread



No problem, and I actually discovered your house rules first (on your blog) and then purchased C&T (as well as Fight On!) because of them.  Your rules are a prime example of the original intent of the game - to make it your own.  The rules adjustments are simple but significant, and get right to the heart of swords and sorcery.  It's fantastic work.

By the way, isn't Newt doing a second edition?



AS&SH is a great game too. It's very much a reworking of 1e DMG, and PH, pretty much in entirety, for swords and sorcery.  It stays faithful to the spirit of 1e (no small feat!) while making slight adjustments to almost everything.  The art, production and clarity of writing is awesome.  To my mind AS&SH is a little more than a S&S adaptation of 1e, its also a clarification of the baroque mess of that game's rules.

The rules changes in AS&SH are broader (17 new classes and a new set of human "races," for example), while the changes in C&T are fewer but deeper (sanity rules, deadlier combat via fighter options, and dangerous magic).  AS&SH is crunchy, while C&T is lite and to the point.  

I prefer C&T which has a slightly more Hyborian Age vibe and does more with less IMO, but this is just my personal taste.  Both do swords and sorcery well with D&D.

All that said, I don't think classes and levels are the best way to approach the Hyborian Age, but again that's my opinion.

Does AS&SH adventures work well with other OSR systems, like C&T?

Quote from: Madprofessor;886110No problem, and I actually discovered your house rules first (on your blog) and then purchased C&T (as well as Fight On!) because of them.  Your rules are a prime example of the original intent of the game - to make it your own.  The rules adjustments are simple but significant, and get right to the heart of swords and sorcery.  It's fantastic work.

Thanks! :)

Quote from: Madprofessor;886110By the way, isn't Newt doing a second edition?

Yes, indeed. It looks great (based on what I've seen). I'm not sure what the ETA is.

I think if you were to do it with D&D, you'd need a 'gritty' setup in terms of the power balance in the world, not too different from how Dark Albion does it: there are a few very very powerful (i.e. High Level) people, but a vast majority are low-level (0 or 1st level).  This means even a low-level adventurer is pretty powerful compared to most other people he meets.  High level adventurers are very rare, and seem incredibly tough.

Also, of course, you'd want to severely restrict the magic system.