Quote from: Kravell;923633The unified art appeals to me. I like DCC with its retro art

DCC's retro-art is not the same as S&W and other Clonemania product's blatant-TSR-nostalgia art. Very different things.

Quote from: S'mon;923722Ah... light bulb moment... now I understand Stacy's "Why does the OSR hate women?" comment (paraphrasing!). The SJW movement absolutely cannot allow any havens, any neutral Tanelorns. Once the OSR was identified as a haven it had to be attacked.

Jesus Christ. Trying to blacklist OSR games (or designers) is an attack. This is not an attack. As I pointed out on my blog, it's not even up to snuff of the real avant-garde of the OSR. The interior art and layout is, I think, really good stuff artistically speaking, but it would fit on the tame side of stuff LotFP has been doing for years now. It's not nearly as avant-garde as a lot of OSR products that have been out for a couple of years now.

Quote from: Simlasa;923774What? That vs. how many are SJW dudes who just pledged in order to wave their flag?
How many are S&W faithful who don't need a new book but supported it to support the game, much as some of us did with the GURPS kickstarter despite not having much interest in Dungeon Fantasy?

Will FGG ever know? Will it ever matter?

It was a tongue in cheek riff on what I was replying to. How many of those 29 dudes became a realization of the purported goal of bringing the game to the mainstream and/or young set. I don't think it matters, since it's been funded beyond its monetary goal, and that should be a success by any measure.

Quote from: RPGPundit;923824Well, here's my thoughts on the subject.

Well there is your ludicrous assertion that there is or was ever a OSR Taliban. Dude, there is no fucking OSR Taliban, all there   ever was is you and Stuart getting into a pissing match over your respective RPGs. Yes Stuart started it by dissing Forward to Adventure. But by the end of the exchange neither one of you did yourselves and favors. The only person that keeps that old enmity alive at this point is you.

At no time either through mental mindshare, or control of a distribution was there ever a chokepoint in the OSR where one group had metaphorical "keys to the gate". Yes the guys behind OSRIC are about preserving AD&D 1st edition 'as is' as close they can legally can. But the way they went about that was through the re-purposing of the open content of the d20 SRD. Jason Vey with Basic Fantasy also did the same thing with Basic Fantasy and with the two as an example meant the gate was flung open for everybody. Then came along Lulu and now it encompassed physical books.

So I ask, so what really is the fucking problem. So what people like to do retro-clone and emulate old TSR trade dress. That the point of the freedom offered by open content. To do whatever it is you want with it. That freedom encompasses  Dark Albion, Lamentation of the Flame Princess, Vornheim, Majestic Wilderlands, and yes Swords & Wizardry.

In the past I know you been perplexed by my defense of those you label as OSR Taliban. It is because I value that freedom, I don't give two shits what other people consider to be creative and progress. What I care about that EVERYBODY has the opportunity to realize their vision if they want to put the work in. I am intensely interested in ways that makes that process affordable in terms of time and resources. And when I find something useful I will talk about it to let other folks know. When I can I will pitch in help like I did with the maps for Arrows of Indra.

Also to make this point fucking crystal clear, slavishly recreating old games is not my thing. What I am interested in is sandbox campaigns and all that goes with prepping and managing them along with presenting my Majestic Wilderlands. I march to the beat of my own drummer thank you.

I am passionate about this stuff, in part because it greatly benefits me. I know exactly why I can publish the things I want to publish. And it isn't because of people like Raggi, Zak S, you, or me trying to push old-school innovation. It because of open content, print on demand, and the Internet. Above all it because a bunch of folks figured to use those things resurrect beloved old games in a way that was both legal and that it could be built on.

You shouldn't be condemning those who you call the OSR Taliban, you should be thanking them that they laid groundwork that you took advantage of for Arrows of Indra and Dark Albion. I do, without the work of Matt Finch, Jason Vey, and Stuart Marshall and their respective teams, Majestic Wilderlands, Blackmarsh, and the rest probably would not have existed. So fuck ya, I  thank them for being obstinate clonemanic pseudo-nostalgic bastards about the issue. And I hope OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, Labynith Lord and the rest enjoy many more reprintings in the future. In the meantime I will keep doing my thing and when I can help other do their thing.

As for the S&W Kickstarter, from my point of view it is a good thing. I don't care if it all-female team. What makes me happy is that this group of people got an opportunity and that a good thing in my book. And I hope they make the most of it.

Again, not a fan of the cover for D&D (like I said in the other thread before gender came into it), but the interior art looks cool and the borders I think are flavorful as fuck.  If nothing else, makes it super easy to flip-to-chapter.  Not really in the market for a physical copy of S&W, but if I was, I'd probably get this one, although I'd prefer the Rick Sardinha cover.

Quote from: estar;923842As for the S&W Kickstarter, from my point of view it is a good thing. I don't care if it all-female team.

I would venture to say no one cares that the artists are all women, but lots of people dislike the accompanying idea that somehow an all-female team magically has a better ability to appeal to everyone than one of all men or one of mixed genders. It's really stupid and hypocritical, but if you're doing an SjW version of S&W, I guess you can't avoid looking stupid and hypocritical.

Also, as someone who likes to write notes in the margins of RPG books, the borders, no matter how great, are a pain in the ass. That's real estate that could have had my notes.

Quote from: Wraith;923848I would venture to say no one cares that the artists are all women, but lots of people dislike the accompanying idea that somehow an all-female team magically has a better ability to appeal to everyone than one of all men or one of mixed genders. It's really stupid and hypocritical, but if you're doing an SjW version of S&W, I guess you can't avoid looking stupid and hypocritical.

To be fair, I don't think it's as much that an all women crew is somehow magically going to draw the young'uns (unless they're coming for the social justice), but I think it's that the specifically TSR-Retro look might NOT draw the young'uns, who might not buy something new simply because it looks old.

Now, how that applies to women, whether there were more or less women as a percentage of gamers in the 80's, 90's, 00's, and 10's I don't really think anyone has good stats for, it's all anecdotal based on what city you were in at the time and what game you were playing.  The "common wisdom" says "Of course there are, duh, Felicia Day."  While I think you can definitely draw a customer line from Tabletop RPGs to Boardgames, Videogames, Cardgames, literature and movies, drawing the relationship going the other way has always been tenuous at best (otherwise Green Ronin would be in total Strippers and Blow territory having licenses for both the Dragon Age videogame and Song of Ice and Fire novels).

So while console and videogames have a way higher percentage of women then they used to, tabletop RPGs always had a higher percentage of women I think, based on my own anecdotal experience. Maybe they are right and the idea "the game written by middle-aged white guys in the style of middle-aged white guy games will magically draw in someone other than an middle-aged white guys when given a new coat of paint by non-middle aged white non-guys" will pan out, but while I don't think you're gonna see an influx of new blood, I'm not sure there's enough SJW Ideology in it to be really harmful.

Quote from: Wraith;923848Also, as someone who likes to write notes in the margins of RPG books, the borders, no matter how great, are a pain in the ass. That's real estate that could have had my notes.

Tru dat, I used to write super-small in the margins of all my books, but my eyes don't let me do that anymore, and I use OneNote for damn near everything.

Quote from: Wraith;923848I would venture to say no one cares that the artists are all women, but lots of people dislike the accompanying idea that somehow an all-female team magically has a better ability to appeal to everyone than one of all men or one of mixed genders. It's really stupid and hypocritical, but if you're doing an SjW version of S&W, I guess you can't avoid looking stupid and hypocritical.

Interesting distinction. I think you're right.

Quote from: RPGPundit;923830Jesus Christ. Trying to blacklist OSR games (or designers) is an attack. This is not an attack.

I meant SD's "Why does the OSR have a problem with women?" statement from a while back. It was a verbal attack. OK it's not on the level of "Clyde Caldwell must never work in this industry again!" type SJW stuff.

Quote from: Wraith;923848I would venture to say no one cares that the artists are all women, but lots of people dislike the accompanying idea that somehow an all-female team magically has a better ability to appeal to everyone than one of all men or one of mixed genders.

My view is for those who feel that way, they need to chill. People and project participants get enthusiastic regardless if it was a all-women team, an all-Antarctica team, or if their first major project.  Can enthusiasm get annoying sure. But what the alternative? Not to be enthusiastic and bubbly about your project? Everybody got their style when it comes to hype including me. Compounding this is the fact that Frog God Games is a OSR publisher with a lot of visibility. I don't view the hype around this any different than what other folks have done for their projects.

This stuff tends to be self correcting in the long run especially with the way sales are being handled these days with the internet. It very for a person to take their business elsewhere. If they don' t live up to the hype, then their next project will be ignored. If they do live up the hype or get within the ballpark at least, then they will find they can do bigger and better projects.

From what I can see right now my opinion the artists that did the interior art will have offers now because of the exposure. I think their work is very nice.  The rest will have to wait until PDFs and physical books are in people's hand.

Quote from: estar;923854Can enthusiasm get annoying sure. But what the alternative? Not to be enthusiastic and bubbly about your project?

The alternative is to quietly put together your all-woman team and try your promising new aesthetic without loudly, smugly drawing attention to those things rather than the product's own merits.

I won't stop anyone from being "enthusiastic and bubbly" about their very public ideological gender segregation gimmick that they are trying to pretend isn't any such thing, but I'm not going to cheer along and I'm not going to feel bad about soft mockery on a pointless thread on a minor forum.

Quote from: estar;923854My view is for those who feel that way, they need to chill. People and project participants get enthusiastic regardless if it was a all-women team, an all-Antarctica team, or if their first major project.  Can enthusiasm get annoying sure. But what the alternative? Not to be enthusiastic and bubbly about your project? Everybody got their style when it comes to hype including me. Compounding this is the fact that Frog God Games is a OSR publisher with a lot of visibility. I don't view the hype around this any different than what other folks have done for their projects.

I am all for clever marketing, and I think this is clever marketing. An 'all-x' team certainly can be good for promotion ("your meatless meal prepared by an all vegan staff"). But when the form of promotion is based around a negative quality in your market base (sexist, exclusionary competitors and sexist, exclusionary customers), it isn't quite the same thing as a promotion that easily and demonstrably adds additional or unique value. There is obviously a risk in this type of promotion, and if they take it on the chin as a result then they should have reasonably expected it - much like you would in any vs competition marketing campaign.

Quote from: RPGPundit;923824Well, here's my thoughts on the subject.

You missed the fact that some are just annoyed with the proclamations. You can be enthusiastic for your project without trumpeting whatever non-game related gimmick you are using. Similar happened with HeroQuest 25th when the designers started pushing Spanish nationalism. Or how some in the OSR annoy you yourself with their antics.

Quote from: One Horse Town;923454I've nothing against Stacy or this project, but really, it's a giant ugly fanny, so less abstract and more, well subliminal and pretty poor at being that. IMO its obvious, so either the artist has somehow managed a giant ugly fanny subconsciously, or it is done on purpose for reasons i can't really fathom. Those are some weird-ass fallopian tubes.

'You know,' she said, beginning to go red. 'A man's... um, you know. Not even very much like, um, you know, too. I mean, you had to want to see a... um, you know... there, if you understand me.'

Quote from: daniel_ream;923697I'm sure they had no agenda whatsoever.

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Supergirl started out shitty. Just saying.