They should at least change the books font.
Maybe something like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]439[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Necrozius;923648
Pretty funny, though. They flat-out stated that this cover, or even the book as a whole, isn't meant to target traditional 40 somethings of the hobby. Judging by the responses by most 40 something traditionalist gamers, here and elsewhere, she was so fucking right. They also pre-preemptively dismissed statements like "why women-only? What a gimmick!" LOL you guys are matching the stereotype perfectly.

The other editions are still available. Why do you guys give ANY fucks? I mean really?

Correction. They said the new cover art is supposed to appeal more to women without appealing less to men. I'd say from what I've heard about the cover, they've failed utterly. This is what happens when you hire people based on something other than their ability to do the work.

Why do I care? As I've stated before:

QuoteAny time a company is forced, or feels forced, to hire someone for any reason other than "they are the best I could afford", that is a problem.
When the result is an otherwise popular book now has a meaningless, abstract cover that may drive people away from OSR games, that is a problem.

I never cared for the old covers much, but they at least communicated that it was an RPG book. Now? The new cover communicates nothing.

I don't know that they've failed. They're already fully funded.

Quote from: Necrozius;923648I like it. It makes me think of something spawned by Shub Niggurath, or some pagan Horned God (or Goddess). The MOTHS are creepy too (aren't they always?). Makes me think of a Death/Black Metal album cover. Or something James Raggi sponsored. Right up my alley.

I agree with the Pundit: the new cover is more interesting than the others, which are fairly generic, IMHO. Beautiful, but generic.

Pretty funny, though. They flat-out stated that this cover, or even the book as a whole, isn't meant to target traditional 40 somethings of the hobby. Judging by the responses by most 40 something traditionalist gamers, here and elsewhere, she was so fucking right. They also pre-preemptively dismissed statements like "why women-only? What a gimmick!" LOL you guys are matching the stereotype perfectly.

The other editions are still available. Why do you guys give ANY fucks? I mean really?

FGG's marketing plan use identity political assumptions that making S&W more interesting for women is the same as pandering to identity political agendas( like: "this part of the hobby has too many male gamers with male sensibilities = badwrongfun and should change"). It is a SJW narrative that the groups who's cuase the SJW contemporarily view themselves as selfproclaimed champions for, is best served by pandering the SJW's. Such as rereleasing a well established game with no other serious change than the marketing of women-only artists and anti-sword&sorcery aesthetics.

Seriously, the  aesthetics of this new printing looks very far away from "mainstream" sensibilities aimed at women in general (as others already have said, the cover itself looks like a generic cover from my black metal collection, in that way I like it). Since the SJW's is a dominant, but not unchallenged, fake "representative" of what is supposed to be viewed as the mainstream in social media. And such does seem to me as less of making S&W relevant to the mainstream, but seeking approval from SJW bloggers and social media.

Sure FGG have every right to do their businesses as they plearse, but blatantly say right in the face of their fans that people with their plumbing, age and sensibilities, even only implied, are from now on no longer a target group for the next rerelease of their in-house game is bound the get some disagreement. And doing so FGG puts themselves in the forefront (within the OSR niche) of a culture war that  the OSR have for many gamers been a haven from, since it has mainly been about love for the hobby and the games themselves rather pushing agendas because it has not been or tried the be in the" big mainstream"(as far as ttrpg's go), where the culture war still rage.

Quote from: Teodrik;923655FGG's marketing plan use identity political assumptions that making S&W more interesting for women is the same as pandering to identity political agendas( like: "this part of the hobby has too many male gamers with male sensibilities = badwrongfun and should change"). It is a SJW narrative that the groups who's cuase the SJW contemporarily view themselves as selfproclaimed champions for, is best served by pandering the SJW's. Such as rereleasing a well established game with no other serious change than the marketing of women-only artists and anti-sword&sorcery aesthetics.

Seriously, the  aesthetics of this new printing looks very far away from "mainstream" sensibilities aimed at women in general (as others already have said, the cover itself looks like a generic cover from my black metal collection, in that way I like it). Since the SJW's is a dominant, but not unchallenged, fake "representative" of what is supposed to be viewed as the mainstream in social media. And such does seem to me as less of making S&W relevant to the mainstream, but seeking approval from SJW bloggers and social media.

Sure FGG have every right to do their businesses as they plearse, but blatantly say right in the face of their fans that people with their plumbing, age and sensibilities, even only implied, are from now on no longer a target group for the next rerelease of FGG's game is bound the get some disagreement. And doing so FGG puts themselves in the forefront (within the OSR niche) of a culture war that  the OSR have for many gamers been a haven from, since it has mainly been about love for the hobby and the games themselves rather pushing agendas because it has not been or tried the be in the" big mainstream"(as far as ttrpg's go), where the culture war still rage.

I don't think that is what is going on though.

To me it looks like all they are doing is trying to expand their audience a bit, draw in more people. I don't think they are trying to fire the male readers, replacing them with female ones.

Whether this will draw in more female gamers, I don't know. That is hard to say. But I think when people get all hostile about it, it is just going to make the company dig its heels in further. I know if someone got pissed because I had some creepy butterflies on one of my covers, my instinctual response would be to put ten creepy butterflies on the next one.

We can have multiple aesthetics in the OSR. What matters to me is that things are not off the table. So when someone says "this is forbidden and bad" for SJW-reasons, it bothers me, but when someone says "this is forbidden and bad" for other reasons it bothers me as well. The moral outrage from ether camp can be equally annoying and stifling creatively.

Not saying everyone should love the cover. That is a subjective call. It won't appeal to everyone and I know that when you come to expect a certain look, it can definitely cause you to lose interest in a line. I had this experience with Ravenloft when they stopped using the Fabian art. So I do think that sensing a break in aesthetic in a line you love, is fair. I just don't think this anything more than trying to reach a bigger audience.

To me it is a cool looking cover and makes me think I can probably get players interested who might not otherwise take a look at the game.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;923646It might be that in general women trend towards certain genres or settings. Ravenloft, Vampire The Masquerade. But that can't be true given how D&D was popular across genders way back according to the old timer stories.

JHKIM has a list of notable designers who are women: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/gender/womenauthors.html

I think it needs to be updated because it's missing Sarah Newton, Filamena Young, etc.

Lies! Before 2016, women were kept on ranches where they were fitted with saddles and ridden around by the male oppressors. There's no way any of them could have escaped the patriarchal overlords to *gasp* write words!

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;923654I don't know that they've failed. They're already fully funded.

Apparently making a more feminine cover is bending backwards to terrorist demands. Or something.

Quote from: Tod13;923653I'd say from what I've heard about the cover, they've failed utterly.

Heard where? On the basis of what data do you declare this?

Quote from: BedrockBrendanI know if someone got pissed because I had some creepy butterflies on one of my covers, my instinctual response would be to put ten creepy butterflies on the next one.

You make it sound like "the pissed" (if that's an appropriate description of what's going on here) started it.
This thread wouldn't exist if they hadn't made a big deal out of their all-female staff and stated opinion that OSR art is on some subtle level exclusionary. Why couldn't they have just released the book without that kind of statement and let it stand on its own merit?

The fact that the OP mixes the topic of hiring an all-female staff, and the topic of the quality and attractiveness of the cover muddles this conversation. Two different things that deserve their own consideration.

Hiring an all-female staff does whiff of SJW crap, but as it is a one time thing, I'm not going to get into panic mode as have some people here. When it becomes a trend, then I'll consider it a real problem.

As for what you think of the actual product, hey, it's all in the eye of the beholder. It's worth asking oneself, though, if part of that dislike is bleeding over from the perceived SJW agenda of the hiring.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;923659You make it sound like "the pissed" (if that's an appropriate description of what's going on here) started it.
This thread wouldn't exist if they hadn't made a big deal out of their all-female staff and stated opinion that OSR art is on some subtle level exclusionary. Why couldn't they have just released the book without that kind of statement and let it stand on its own merit?

I don't know who started it, and I am not talking about every single reaction here. I am just saying if people react to something with hostility, particularly if it seems especially pronounced because there are perceived political issues, it just makes the content creator dig their heels in further. For me, it doesn't matter if the person is an SJW or someone who is mad because they think I am catering to SJWs, if they attack me on those grounds for doing something, my instinct is just to do it more (mainly out of sheer stubbornness).  

My feeling here is it is good to have a broad range of aesthetics allowable. A lot of the responses I am seeing get into "book covers have to be X", which to me, is just as annoying as someone saying you can't have sexy on a cover or you can't have demons, or it needs to abide by political principles X, Y, and Z.

So if they were saying people shouldn't be making art that appeals to older gamers, or that the current retro-art is bad and evil, then I'd have an issue. But I just didn't really get that here. I've certainly seen people and companies engage in that sort of thing (where it is more about finger pointing and claiming to hold some kind of moral high ground). That kind of behavior, whether it is SJW or anti-SJW is what annoys me. If people are just broadening the aesthetic so it encompasses more, I am cool with that.

If you guys are this butthurt over a stupid cover on the new version of S&W, you could do me a favor and support my upcoming OSR game "Into The Darkness" once the rough draft is complete!

There's no SJW stuff in it (but then again, there's none in S&W even with the new cover) and you get to play OD&D as a brutal survival horror game that for some reason will have anime artwork in the final product because I am a shameless weeb who is willing to whore out his own game before it's even finished its concept phase and rough drafting.

But seriously, support the upcoming OSR game "Into The Darkness"! Especially if you decide to boycoot Swords & Wizardry for this reason.

And to get us back on topic, I don't see what the big deal is about FGG hiring a female developer for the new game. Yeah, the new cover is kind of stupid and abstract, but from what I gather, it's still the same basic game. It's not like Mage 20 where they use made up third-party gender pronouns and literally push SJW agendas out in the open. As far as I can tell, it's the same game as before, just with a weird-looking cover and a few more women on staff. I don't really see the issue here.

It wasn't just a female developer. It was an all-female team.

QuoteWe didn’t just want to do an exact reprint, and the history of the changes here date back a while ago to when we were talking with designer Stacy Dellorfano about the fact that many OSR games have a physical appearance and presentation that really targets the 40 year old guys who’ve been gaming since forever, and doesn’t have nearly as much appeal to younger or female gamers of the generations following that first wave of players from the 1980s. In point of fact, old-school games, with their light-rules aspect and emphasis on a game master’s “common sense” interpretation of situations, are actually a really good tool for anyone who feels like rules-lawyers may be spoiling the game by trying to be over-authoritative or even overbearing with a GM. But if the appearance and presentation make the game look like it’s purely a throwback and not a modern tool for good gaming, then there’s a real obstacle to the game’s push into the mainstream gaming community.

As a result of this analysis, we engaged Stacy as a designer to produce an edition that’s no less appealing to older male gamers, while being MORE appealing to younger and to female gamers. Stacy put together a team, all women, to address this dual objective

I'm not sure how it follows that hiring an all-female team will make a game more mainstream or appealing to the younger generation. I think they should just outright say that they are hoping to bring in more of the female demographic, and that they want to be inclusive to that demographic. That is what the intention really looks like. It's good that they're making an effort to find talent from a demographic that they feel is not adequately represented-- at least they're walking the talk, unlike Fred Hicks.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;923672I'm not sure how it follows that hiring an all-female team will make a game more mainstream or appealing to the younger generation. I think they should just outright say that they are hoping to bring in more of the female demographic, and that they want to be inclusive to that demographic. That is what the intention really looks like. It's good that they're making an effort to find talent from a demographic that they feel is not adequately represented-- at least they're walking the talk, unlike Fred Hicks.

I think what they were trying to say was they hired the all female team to help reach more women, and they gave that team the instruction to make a cover that appealed to younger gamers without losing the older ones. Basically they wanted her to move away from a late 70s, early 80s aesthetic but in a way that would retain the interest of older male gamers.

Now that I parsed it again, I think you are right. Looks like the decision to hire an all women team may have been Stacey's rather than a directive from FGG. That makes it more consistent.

Quote from: Rincewind1;923658Apparently making a more feminine cover is bending backwards to terrorist demands. Or something.

Actually, I saw this cover a while before I read about the who & why of it. Without that context nothing about it struck me as 'feminine'... just that it stood in sharp contrast to what I'd normally expect to see. If anything it seemed a bit 'anime' to me (followed by 'metal' when I took a closer look).
I do wonder how the reaction, from all reactors, would have been different if they had not trumpeted the 'all female' aspect and instead just let it stand on its surface merits. Would it have funded as quickly? Would the complaints be as... complainy?