The interior art is apparently alot better than the cover. Pretty good detailing.

So...women added a little gloss to something created by men, and ask for extra special applause (and money)? You go, girls.

Quote from: The_Shadow;926279So...women added a little gloss to something created by men, and ask for extra special applause (and money)? You go, girls.

Duh! If it's a team of all female artists, then it magically appeals to EVERYONE, whereas a team of all male or a mixed-gender team cannot possibly do the same. It's really very simple.

Well one good thing about projects like these: they're great asshole detectors.

Quote from: Necrozius;926452Well one good thing about projects like these: they're great asshole detectors.

Another good thing is the hypocrisy and double-standards it exposes.

I think the selling point was more supposed to be that the artist team is all female more than their art is allegedly more universally appealing. Its somethinf they believe will appeal to women and men that are concerned about the issues like "gender balance" in gaming. More pushing the sizzle (the appearance of being more progressive than others) than the steak (than the art who's quality isn't really effected by the sex of the artists), in a sense.

Quote from: Necrozius;926452Well one good thing about projects like these: they're great asshole detectors.

I'm sorry you see it that way.

I got off the identity politics bandwagon when I realized labels like asshole/creep/racist/sexist were being used like the word "witch" in the 16th century, to end discussions, stigmatize enemies and retaliate for ideological slights. Of course, unlike witches, assholes actually exist, but I don't think it does anyone any good to toss all dissenting opinions into that category. All that does is feed the growing backlash and make it easier for real assholes to slip away in the confusion.

Quote from: Wraith;926453Another good thing is the hypocrisy and double-standards it exposes.

There's probably always going to be some degree of double standards regarding the sexes barring fairly massive sociological or psychological change. It almost seems hardwired into the human psyche. It one thing that makes creating an ostensible equal society such a thorny goal.

Quote from: Nexus;926454I think the selling point was more supposed to be that the artist team is all female more than their art is allegedly more universally appealing. Its somethinf they believe will appeal to women and men that are concerned about the issues like "gender balance" in gaming. More pushing the sizzle (the appearance of being more progressive than others) than the steak (than the art who's quality isn't really effected by the sex of the artists), in a sense.

Question...

So how is anyone supposed to know this? Is it emblazoned on the cover? Ir is it just KS hype? Because really, hows anyone to know once its on the shelves?

Quote from: Omega;926496Question...

So how is anyone supposed to know this? Is it emblazoned on the cover? Ir is it just KS hype? Because really, hows anyone to know once its on the shelves?

Good question. Maybe they were counting on word of mouth and the controversy? It appears to have generated some conversation. The publicity could help sales and it doesn't directly cost the company anything.

It's hard to make a controversy out of a nontroversy. Were there women stigmatized by the gender balance issues? Where were these issues defined? I have run S&W for a group of males and females and have NEVER heard a complaint from females, probably because as a role-playing game, the roles are defined by the players. This just comes across as contrived and made-up need to politicize something that isn't an issue. Plus the cover art does nothing to promote the game as fantasy role-playing, explain the theme or even be a welcome wagon for women. To be totally honest and not sarcastic or insincere at all, wouldn't a better option would be to make a female oriented version of S&W? Not just the art, but rewrite the game from a feminine angle, define strong feminine roles in words. Make an entirely new game on the S&W rules engine, not with cheesy stereotypes but using strong women in fantasy fiction as examples. (like Galadriel, Jirel of Joiry, etc).

Quote from: bat;926618To be totally honest and not sarcastic or insincere at all, wouldn't a better option would be to make a female oriented version of S&W? Not just the art, but rewrite the game from a feminine angle, define strong feminine roles in words. Make an entirely new game on the S&W rules engine, not with cheesy stereotypes but using strong women in fantasy fiction as examples. (like Galadriel, Jirel of Joiry, etc).

Yeah, but what about Galadriel's Gender makes her the way she is?  She's clearly one of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth after the Valar, so I suppose you could argue there's a Feanor/Galadriel Male/Female divide there, but I doubt considering how the other elves acted that Feanor was meant to embody "maleness" any more than Galadriel embodied "femaleness".  Yeah men said she was a witch with terrible sorcerous powers, they said the same thing about the Elven-King of Mirkwood.

Jirel of Joiry might be a better example, but again, aside from standing out due to her sex in a traditionally male-held role, I don't know where the "feminine" part makes an appearance translating to a game.  Jirel stands out because she is (for the pulp fiction of that time) an exceptionally well-drawn, complex, and realistic character.  How does that translate to rules?

Now, sure, you can go with your gut, and a lot of people's anecdotes point to women on average being more about investigation, social connections, and solving things through other means than violence than men are, but again, other than having a skill system and a well-drawn, complex, and realistic campaign, how do you accomplish this?

It's one of those things that really shouldn't be expressed mechanically.  First, because a lot of women like chopping shit up every bit as much as men do, and secondly, because that kind of more social, less violent and more investigative game that might appeal to this theoretical "average female gamer" better is one is created by the GM and players at the table by interacting with a well done setting, whether the rules are OD&D, Traveller, RQ, or Xworld.

Quote from: CRKrueger;926625It's one of those things that really shouldn't be expressed mechanically.  First, because a lot of women like chopping shit up every bit as much as men do, and secondly, because that kind of more social, less violent and more investigative game that might appeal to this theoretical "average female gamer" better is one is created by the GM and players at the table by interacting with a well done setting, whether the rules are OD&D, Traveller, RQ, or Xworld.

The woman player in my last Dark Sun campaign was all about hacking her enemies to bits and eating them. (She really got into the cutthroat survival aspect of Dark Sun.)
My approach has always been to put a little bit of everything into a game, and see what the players seem to like best. I do think that there are activites that tend to be favored by one gender over another, but I never limit myself to thinking "The chicks won't dig a traditional dungeon crawl" or "Guys don't like social stuff", or the opposite "I must make every female NPC a strong, independent womyn because muh gender politics".

Quote from: Ratman_tf;926626The woman player in my last Dark Sun campaign was all about hacking her enemies to bits and eating them. (She really got into the cutthroat survival aspect of Dark Sun.)
My approach has always been to put a little bit of everything into a game, and see what the players seem to like best. I do think that there are activites that tend to be favored by one gender over another, but I never limit myself to thinking "The chicks won't dig a traditional dungeon crawl" or "Guys don't like social stuff", or the opposite "I must make every female NPC a strong, independent womyn because muh gender politics".

Yeah it's not something you design for. It's the old Cult of the Designer problem.  Designers are trying to achieve things in gameplay and even worse, outside of gameplay that don't have anything to do with the rules.  Being designers, they think they can design for that.  They're seeing it as a technical problem.  They can no more fix gender issues in gaming through game design then Microsoft can fix gender issues in IT by programming a new version of Word.

I agree that it doesn't need to be expressed mechanically, in my experience it doesn't need to be expressed by an all female art team either, but others feel differently. A game with strong female leads should be something that any group can create themselves. Other people might be encouraged with some more elements, like the art and even mechanics. I don't think that the all female art team is wrong, I believe the premise is dumb and that the cover is awful, but others felt the need for it. I just think it wasn't well directed.