Quote from: Pierce InverarityBut that's a big deal--they don't crack (easily) in face of horror and overwhelming adversity.

I'm curious, have you ever seen a game attempting to do Hobbits (or an obvious ripoff AKA Halflings) not include that aspect?  What were the numbers for BD&D? Because 3e's +2 for fear saves isn't exactly overwhelming in the big scheme of things, although they do get that +1 across the board save bonus which is nice.

Blakkie, I'm not saying that in the history of roleplaying only D&D and BW ever got halflings right. I'm saying BD&D did get them right on the first try (best saves besides dwarves, 90%[!] chance to hide in woods/underbrush, 30% to hide in shadows indoors, among other things).

Quote from: Pierce InverarityBlakkie, I'm not saying that in the history of roleplaying only D&D and BW ever got halflings right.

Yeah, I kinda got that impression you were saying so. I thought maybe somebody somewhere along the line had shafted the little guys hard. Actually IMO I think that AD&D/3e did somewhat. There isn't much of a differentiation between the races, any of the races. I understand why but it still comes across a little bland.

P.S. That was a really old post by Luke and not even for BW Revised. So maybe that's why he didn't mention including "are you a Hobbit" in the Steel Questionaire (they should get at least a +1, probably a +2). Or he just brainfarted and it didn't occur to him?

Quote from: ClaudiusThe difference between Burning Wheel and D&D in this regard is that D&D has sourcebooks that tune rules and settings (Dragonlance, Eberron, etc), whereas Burning Wheel doesn't.

That's not entirely true -- the Under a Serpent Sun PDF on the BW wiki is a fully self-contained setting, as it were.

Quote from: blakkieProbably because there is a city vibe to the city lifepaths. You character ends up feeling like it is part of society instead of isolated from it, even when you dip into the Outcast setting. A lot of games the character is sort of a blank slate when you start. Sure they had this life before but now they have this completely different separated, they've been transmuted and what they knew, what they did, and how they lived doesn't much matter anymore.

Which is exactly the problem in a TROS Conan game we're about to start. The PCs feel (to me) as if they had appeared of nowhere. I think I'll switch to Hârn for the setting.

Yes, this is an off-topic.

Quote from: jdrakehThat's not entirely true -- the Under a Serpent Sun PDF on the BW wiki is a fully self-contained setting, as it were.

I had forgotten about that, and about Jihad. Well, what can I say, I stand corrected.

Quote from: blakkieTolkien was late Edwardian (EDIT: actually I guess he would have wrote LotR post-Edwardian) but he would have grown up reading Victorian historians. Yeah, basically Tolkien with a little grime smeared on.  (( I'm not sure where you get "the Church oppresses free thought" though? ))

Who's talking about Tolkien? I was referring to the popular image of Medieval times.

Quote from: mythusmageWho's talking about Tolkien? I was referring to the popular image of Medieval times.

...with elves and dwarves and orcs that are arguably more Tolkien than MERP. Even the dragon is a Tolkien/Earthsea crossbreed. Same thing.

I'm still curious about "the Church oppresses free thought" part, where do you get that come from in the BWR books? I must have missed that part.

Quote from: blakkie...with elves and dwarves and orcs that are arguably more Tolkien than MERP. Even the dragon is a Tolkien/Earthsea crossbreed. Same thing.

I'm still curious about "the Church oppresses free thought" part, where do you get that come from in the BWR books? I must have missed that part.

Think Victorian Medievalist tropes. Features that predate BW by a century or so.

Quote from: mythusmageThink Victorian Medievalist tropes. Features that predate BW by a century or so.

But where is the there anything about the Church?  And what exactly do you see as more Victorian in the looking back on the history? I'm not saying "wrong", I'm asking why you class it like that? Do you see anywhere in the Bibliography where such an influence might have come from?

Frankly I see it as more early Renissance (from the weapons and the medical skills for starters). I think JamesV was closest so far. I even think I see where JamesV gets the Watership Down vibe from. Sapient, social animal races with a history of internal strife. Roden particularly.

P.S. The initial basics for Middle Earth were laid down over 70 years ago and come from a man that would have grown up reading Victorian POV history. That was my point there.

Quote from: blakkieBut where is the there anything about the Church?  And what exactly do you see as more Victorian in the looking back on the history? I'm not saying "wrong", I'm asking why you class it like that? Do you see anywhere in the Bibliography where such an influence might have come from?

I'm talking about more than the game, you obtuse moose. I'm talking about how people have seen the Middle Ages, from Victorian times to the present. I'm talking about academic bigotry. Tolkien be buggered sez I, He has fuck all to do with it. IT'S THE VICTORIAN ACADEMICS, STUPID!

They are the oblivious fools who got so much of the Middle Ages wrong, and who's work has so blighted popular efforts to this day. And for your information, you pox lobotomized twit, you can't blame Tolkien for elves, dwarfs, and orcs any more. They have entered the zeitgeist, they are an RPG trope. Just because a game has elves, dwarfs, and orcs does not mean it has to draw from Lord of the Rings.

Burning Wheel features just about every mistake, error, and stupid idea from early Medieval studies as any other fantasy RPG. Peasants living lives of endless toil, the Church suppressing knowledge and burning witches in ton lots, crap like that. It informs the game and those who play it. It comes as part of the baggage everyone brings to the table, and nothing is done to correct the idiocy.

The author brought assumptions when he wrote it, players bring assumptions when they play it. They don't have to be spelled out to have an effect on what is produced. It's called sub-text, learn about it.

Quote from: mythusmageBurning Wheel features just about every mistake, error, and stupid idea from early Medieval studies as any other fantasy RPG. Peasants living lives of endless toil, the Church suppressing knowledge and burning witches in ton lots, crap like that.

Are there such things in Burning Wheel? Could you give examples from the text? With page quotations, please.

Quote from: ClaudiusAre there such things in Burning Wheel? Could you give examples from the text? With page quotations, please.

Of course he can't. He's "talking about more than the game". :rolleyes:  Which I guess means he's talking about stuff that isn't actually in the book.

Quote from: mythusmageBurning Wheel features just about every mistake, error, and stupid idea from early Medieval studies as any other fantasy RPG. Peasants living lives of endless toil, the Church suppressing knowledge and burning witches in ton lots, crap like that. It informs the game and those who play it. It comes as part of the baggage everyone brings to the table, and nothing is done to correct the idiocy.

Where?

I mean, I broadly agree with you that most people's conceptions of the middle ages are quite wrong, but I'm not sure I see how BW features those errors.  Where does BW have the Church suppressing knowledge for example?

Also, I'd note that BW is not a historical rpg, it's a fantasy rpg, as such I would personally expect it to hew more closely to traditional fantasy settings than I would to actual historical ones.  Criticising it for not being historical is a bit like criticising Toon for not being realistic surely?  It's not a design goal.

So all of my sources, Keegan, Tuchman and Seward are all drooling mouthbreathers, eh? All of the first person stuff from the period (their research, not mine) is bullcuckey, eh? There's a bibliography. Debunk it!

Enlighten me! I love research. And I like my games to be consistent internally and I do like a little historical accuracy sprinkled atop my fiction.

-L

EDIT: and OF COURSE my game has a view point. I'm not denying that.