TheRPGSite

Has anyone looked at mashing-up H&H and Traveller? I like the setting and sandbox toolkit in H&H much more than the default Traveller universe. However, having played a lot of D&D-like games lately, I thought it might be fresh to try a change in pace of game mechanics.

I worry that everyone would just die because Traveller combat is so brutal. Thoughts? Are the "Techniques" from Judge Dredd MT or the "Hero Points" from the Campaign Guide for MT worthwhile?

Quote from: amacris;651497Has anyone looked at mashing-up H&H and Traveller? I like the setting and sandbox toolkit in H&H much more than the default Traveller universe. However, having played a lot of D&D-like games lately, I thought it might be fresh to try a change in pace of game mechanics.

I worry that everyone would just die because Traveller combat is so brutal. Thoughts? Are the "Techniques" from Judge Dredd MT or the "Hero Points" from the Campaign Guide for MT worthwhile?

Um, have you considered possibly just playing Traveller in a universe that you create yourself? You don't have to use the default Official Traveller Universe.

See, Traveller already has several adventures set-up as dungeon crawls. Shadows, Annic Nova, Death Station, all come immediately to mind as adventures to try and see if Traveller is the preferred system for you to use.

For myself, I wouldn't try to do a mash-up, I like both games and while they are both SFRPGs, they are different enough in their execution that their playstyles are radically different when used. I'd just pick one and run with it.

I am looking forward to running H&H to see how it differs from a Traveller space dungeon in actual play. Certainly H&H has more "powers" than you would encounter in most Traveller campaigns and the character classes feel tighter niched in my reading than randomly rolled Traveller characters would generally be.

But the background in H&H could easily be replaced with Traveller's Imperium, or Warhammer 40k or Fading Suns, or any other vast empire that has some dark scary corners.

Traveller combat is brutal, but I did a mock combat with H&H and I might invoke the optional rule of starting HP equal to CON when I run the game. In my mock combat, 2 of 5 PCs got splattered.

I've considered using Traveller with extra transhuman options on top, to run an Alastair Reynolds-inspired game of transhuman xenoarcheologists dungeon-crawling their way through ancient alien astroengineering megastructures, and possibly capturing rare working alien tech and reverse-engineering it and getting rich and influential... well, you get the idea. :D

I love H&H and it's certainly better focused on "SF dungeoneering" than Traveller, and it'll definitely crank out a more D&D-like experience. But like Jeff remarks above, the idea has already been explored by a few classic Traveller modules (I should really check some of these, BTW).

Quote from: The Butcher;652105I've considered using Traveller with extra transhuman options on top, to run an Alastair Reynolds-inspired game of transhuman xenoarcheologists dungeon-crawling their way through ancient alien astroengineering megastructures, and possibly capturing rare working alien tech and reverse-engineering it and getting rich and influential... well, you get the idea. :D

I love H&H and it's certainly better focused on "SF dungeoneering" than Traveller, and it'll definitely crank out a more D&D-like experience. But like Jeff remarks above, the idea has already been explored by a few classic Traveller modules (I should really check some of these, BTW).

Are you trying for a "Diamond Dogs" kind of gameplay? I think that is what you are referencing when you talk about Alastair Reynolds style game of transhuman xenoarcheologists dungeon-crawling their way through ancient alien astroengineering megastructures, but I'm not sure.

See, you might want to look at the module Twilight's Peak for Classic Traveller instead.

I have run Traveller's Shadows and Annic Nova many times over the years, but they are mostly deck plans with some basic ideas and bare bones dressing.

I run Annic Nova like Event Horizon and the enemy in Shadows is much more the environment than the beasties. Both would be great for Hulks & Horrors too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;652129I have run Traveller's Shadows and Annic Nova many times over the years, but they are mostly deck plans with some basic ideas and bare bones dressing.

That is because it is up to the Referee to ensure that the adventures are interesting for the Players.

Quote from: Spinachcat;652129I run Annic Nova like Event Horizon and the enemy in Shadows is much more the environment than the beasties. Both would be great for Hulks & Horrors too.

See? Like that.

Quote from: jeff37923;652133That is because it is up to the Referee to ensure that the adventures are interesting for the Players.

I only half agree.

The "bare bones" approach of many of the early products did not help novice GMs become successful GMs. The DIY approach that is lauded by hardcore hobbyists isn't something that interests most people. It's why Pizza Hut does not deliver a bag of flour and a can of sauce.

Quote from: Spinachcat;652138I only half agree.

The "bare bones" approach of many of the early products did not help novice GMs become successful GMs. The DIY approach that is lauded by hardcore hobbyists isn't something that interests most people. It's why Pizza Hut does not deliver a bag of flour and a can of sauce.

If you do not have an imagination, than maybe you should find another hobby.

A "bare bones" or "just enough" approach to purchased products allows Referees to tailor their adventures to their Players for the enjoyment of all. This not only helped, but empowered Referees using those early products to create their own using the toolkit provided. Without this approach FASA, Judges Guild, and others would not have had the freedom to become producers in their own right.

Then as is now, there is an explosion of possibilities using Mongoose Traveller as a base. Of particular note is Zozer Games and their Orbital setting, which is absolutely fan-fucking-tastic.

When all you have is a bag of flour and a can of sauce, you can make a lot of different foods besides just pizza.

Quote from: jeff37923;651623Um, have you considered possibly just playing Traveller in a universe that you create yourself? You don't have to use the default Official Traveller Universe.

As I said in my original post, I like the universe presented in Hulks & Horrors.

QuoteSee, Traveller already has several adventures set-up as dungeon crawls. Shadows, Annic Nova, Death Station, all come immediately to mind as adventures to try and see if Traveller is the preferred system for you to use.

I have all of those adventures. I have the three LBBs, 2 copies of Starter Traveller, and most of the books for Mongoose Traveller, too. What I do *not* have is familiarity with the Judge Dredd/Strontium Dogs/cinematic style of Traveller play. So that's what I'm asking about.

QuoteFor myself, I wouldn't try to do a mash-up, I like both games and while they are both SFRPGs, they are different enough in their execution that their playstyles are radically different when used. I'd just pick one and run with it.

I am afraid you have left me confused. You began by saying that I could useTraveller to get the dungeoneering feel I want. Then you warned that their playstyles are so radically different that you wouldn't do a mashup. So is your conclusion that Traveller *can* do space dungeoneering, or that it *can't*?

Quote from: Spinachcat;651629I am looking forward to running H&H to see how it differs from a Traveller space dungeon in actual play. Certainly H&H has more "powers" than you would encounter in most Traveller campaigns and the character classes feel tighter niched in my reading than randomly rolled Traveller characters would generally be.

But the background in H&H could easily be replaced with Traveller's Imperium, or Warhammer 40k or Fading Suns, or any other vast empire that has some dark scary corners.

Yes, H&H could work with a lot of backgrounds. That said, I do like the default "Surveyor's Guild/Plague Horror" background a lot. It get's the job done without a lot of overhead.

I like the "powers" of H&H and the tight niche of the characters. What I dislike is (a) the limited equipment list, (b) the silliness factor in many of the items that are present; it works against the space-horror vibe the game otherwise has; (c) the fact I haven't been able to make any sense at all of the masses and sizes of the starships, or their costs. So those points made me want to see if there might be a way to apply Traveller in those areas and/or just use Traveller as the system as H&H as the toolkit.

Jeff, I know you love Traveller. But you are sabotaging your own love. Every time someone dares to criticise Traveller in any, no matter how trivial way, or compares Traveller to other SciFi game and considers using it above it, you charge with a full blown frontal assault, that destroys the thread.

I didn't want to say it, because you are in general a good poster, but you need to calm down about Traveller a bit.

Quote from: amacris;652215I am afraid you have left me confused. You began by saying that I could useTraveller to get the dungeoneering feel I want. Then you warned that their playstyles are so radically different that you wouldn't do a mashup. So is your conclusion that Traveller *can* do space dungeoneering, or that it *can't*?

Yes, Traveller can do space dungeoneering, but it will be very lethal.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652250Jeff, I know you love Traveller. But you are sabotaging your own love. Every time someone dares to criticise Traveller in any, no matter how trivial way, or compares Traveller to other SciFi game and considers using it above it, you charge with a full blown frontal assault, that destroys the thread.

I didn't want to say it, because you are in general a good poster, but you need to calm down about Traveller a bit.

I will take that under advisement.

Quote from: jeff37923;652270Yes, Traveller can do space dungeoneering, but it will be very lethal.

OK. Since you are the site's expert in Traveller, what is your opinion on ways to reduce the lethality of Traveller combat on PCs? Here are some of the ideas I've seen and/or am bandying about. I'm working from Mongoose Traveller as my baseline.

1) When you Dodge, you apply your Athletics as a DM to the attacker's die roll. (Like melee with parrying)
a) Same idea, but you apply your Gun Combat instead, on the assumption that the skill includes defensive tactics.
b) Same idea, but you apply some sort of Armor skill instead.
2) Use Judge Dredd/Strontium Dog Special Techniques
3) Use Advantages/Disadvantages from Chthonian Stars
4) Use Hero Points from Supplement 9: Campaign Guide
5) Other thoughts??

Quote from: amacris;652216Yes, H&H could work with a lot of backgrounds. That said, I do like the default "Surveyor's Guild/Plague Horror" background a lot. It get's the job done without a lot of overhead.

It's a good solid easy to expand background. There is also the fear of the Plague being unleashed again.

Quote from: amacris;652216What I dislike is (a) the limited equipment list, (b) the silliness factor in many of the items that are present; it works against the space-horror vibe the game otherwise has; (c) the fact I haven't been able to make any sense at all of the masses and sizes of the starships, or their costs.

I am nitpicking through H&H this week and I am going to start a Question Thread for J Arcane. I agree on the silliness factor, but it works for me. But I like gonzo and miss the wackiness of Rogue Trader which got lost in the grimdark of 40k. My preference for space horror is grim + dark + gonzo.
 
I am doing some sample shipbuilding to get a feel for that subsystem.

Quote from: amacris;652216So those points made me want to see if there might be a way to apply Traveller in those areas and/or just use Traveller as the system as H&H as the toolkit.

Having run lots of Space Horror with Traveller, I don't see any problem. I am a fan of Cthonian Stars and as long as you and your players are cool with the high bodycount, then go for it!

I ran Aliens and AVP campaigns with Traveller and never had a problem, but my players knew how deadly the setting was going to be in advance (aka, just like the movie except without movie star protections). It wasn't uncommon to lose 2-10 PCs in a session of 6 players with 2 PCs each. In chargen, each PC had to have a Quirk that made them unique which added to the fun. It was always sad when somebody with a cool quirk died.

I remember there was a grunt whose quirk was regularly referring to "I gotta get me some bubbajello" and when he died in battle, the survivors wanted to roleplay his wake at the bar.

Quote from: Spinachcat;652331I am nitpicking through H&H this week and I am going to start a Question Thread for J Arcane. I agree on the silliness factor, but it works for me. But I like gonzo and miss the wackiness of Rogue Trader which got lost in the grimdark of 40k. My preference for space horror is grim + dark + gonzo.  

Hah, I like dark + wierd + possibility of heroism. The forest in the can / salad slicer / hoverboard-that-doesn't-work-on-water is all a bit too silly and/or referential for me. I have enough trouble keeping my players from constantly making 80s jokes and Simpson humor without the game doing it for them! That's easy to tweak though.

What's really got me is that the ship math is completely eluding me. The ship's length increases linearly with class. So does mass. But mass should increase with volume. So the implication is that the ships are just getting longer without getting wider and deeper. That is not really how I imagine ships, I guess. Moreover, the changes in price and hull points don't reflect the linearity.

The pricing itself is quite wacky. Spaceship are less expensive than private boats and planes today. Spaceships can't be that cheap in a guild-based system with quarantined systems; there'd be no way to maintain the guild or the quarantine. One possibility is that they are actually are 10x to 100x more expensive, but subsidized by the guild or government. [I know, I know, handwave it. It's not in my nature.]

I'm also wondering how large space station rooms, pod rooms, and ship rooms are supposed to be. It's implicit in the rules that they have a standardized geomorphic framework, and it seems like knowing what that is would make things a lot easier to roll up.

QuoteHaving run lots of Space Horror with Traveller, I don't see any problem. I am a fan of Cthonian Stars and as long as you and your players are cool with the high bodycount, then go for it!

My players enjoy having that high bodycount initially - we all like the "1st level D&D experience" and the idea that you start as a mook. But they like to invest in the characters that live, and they don't enjoy a constant high bodycount on an ongoing basis. That seems like the big difference between, say, D&D and Traveller. In Traveller, I can have maximum ability scores and Gun Combat-5 and still die in one round - nothing gives a highly skilled character a mechanical improvement on defense. D&D gives you hp so you're sturdier; and even most 'deadly' games let you become harder to hit (even Cyberpunk 2020 made you harder to hit with high REF). So that's what I'm wrestling with.

I am not by any stretch an expert in Traveller, but I have an idea.

Why not just tack on a hit point mechanic? You could give PCs hit points equal to Endurance and let them be depleted before applying damage to actual attributes.

Quote from: amacris;652344The ship's length increases linearly with class. So does mass. But mass should increase with volume. So the implication is that the ships are just getting longer without getting wider and deeper.

I did not notice this! I will keep it in mind when I do my sample ships and try to figure out the math there.

Quote from: amacris;652344Spaceship are less expensive than private boats and planes today. Spaceships can't be that cheap in a guild-based system with quarantined systems; there'd be no way to maintain the guild or the quarantine.

I get the feeling that in H&H, space ships = private boats, so even a few mooks could chip in and get a soggy bottomed scow. The guild controls the navigational charts so the vast majority of people don't even know how to get from A to B without guild permission. Most ships are probably just sailed on well known routes between "safe" worlds. Also, you gotta be a nutter to travel to quarantine worlds and that probably keeps most people out.

I bet enough spacers bring back video of their adventures to keep the public quite panicked about the monsters that live in the quarantine.

I also get the sense that the guild is much more about being middlemen than enforcers. They can't stop you from going to Planet B, but the space government only recognizes guilder claims.

Quote from: amacris;652344One possibility is that they are actually are 10x to 100x more expensive, but subsidized by the guild or government. [I know, I know, handwave it. It's not in my nature.]

The subsized option sounds good.

Quote from: amacris;652344But they like to invest in the characters that live, and they don't enjoy a constant high bodycount on an ongoing basis.

Traveller, like CoC, encourages PCs to avoid combat and think around situations if possible. H&H and D&D are all about the mosh. Their mosh is still deadly, just not as insano as Trav or CoC.

BTW, if you are a White Wolf fan, I highly suggest looking at Trinity (originally Aeon, then Aeon Trinity, then just Trinity). The characters are very sturdy. They are all powerful psionics with a variety of powers and I did a xenoarcheology campaign with them that was very fun for a group who wanted lots of danger, but not slaughter.

Some Traveller referees don't mind having to add their own details to a bare-bones GDW module that was written in 1981, that was written for a bare-bones SF RPG.  I, as a young'n, was not amused going through that stuff.  SPI would later come out with their Universe RPG.  But it had too much mechanic involved compared to Classic Traveller. It got cancelled anyway soon after.

I'm not a fan of hit points.  Hit points lead to video games.  Which leads to Skyrim, where a Redguard character never needs to worry about dying and can tank his way through any encounter.  It also helps that Skyrim is like swimming in a vast ocean that is only 3ft deep.

Anyway, Mongoose Traveller handles combat a little less deadly than Classic Traveller, and without using hit points still.  Damage goes directly to your character's attributes rather to some countdown pointer.  This kind of Traveller was not meant to be played like an Elder Scrolls game where you are a hobo serial killer.  Classic Traveller's skills are kind of vague and precise.  Mongoose has a better skill set.  Anyway, look at the skills for the Traveller version you're thinking of playing so you can see just what it is exactly that Traveller characters do in a game (other than kill/be killed).  If the skills don't jump out at you, then that version of Traveller is not for you.  In general (but especially in the Mongoose version) Traveller is all about the skills your character has.  Otherwise, you are going strictly on your attributes only for skill checks.

ADDED:
95% of the time, combat is to be avoided in Traveller.  But if combat is the only game in town, wear armor.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;652448I'm not a fan of hit points.  Hit points lead to video games.  Which leads to Skyrim, where a Redguard character never needs to worry about dying and can tank his way through any encounter.

Only if you mix them up with levels. If they remain relatively static throughout a character's lifespan, they work as well as anything else.

Quote from: amacris;652277OK. Since you are the site's expert in Traveller, what is your opinion on ways to reduce the lethality of Traveller combat on PCs? Here are some of the ideas I've seen and/or am bandying about. I'm working from Mongoose Traveller as my baseline.

1) When you Dodge, you apply your Athletics as a DM to the attacker's die roll. (Like melee with parrying)
a) Same idea, but you apply your Gun Combat instead, on the assumption that the skill includes defensive tactics.
b) Same idea, but you apply some sort of Armor skill instead.
2) Use Judge Dredd/Strontium Dog Special Techniques
3) Use Advantages/Disadvantages from Chthonian Stars
4) Use Hero Points from Supplement 9: Campaign Guide
5) Other thoughts??

Sorry for the delay, but I had to go to work.
I'm actually glad because it gave me time to think about this.

Instead of trying to reduce the lethality, embrace it. Just make the PCs act like Cylon Skin Jobs.

Give each PC a neural interface link and a high tech comm which is in near constant communication with the home base (starship, colony, whatever). Everything the PC does is transmitted and downloaded into a mainframe. When that PC dies (actually a clone or biological robot/bioroid), everything gets downloaded into a new bioroid. The PC then has to restart the adventure from that location, even if it is not the same point in time. Death becomes a learning experience.

Of course, the signal can be jammed or lost or suffer significant dropout, leaving the newly awakened clone with no idea how the previous one died.

Sometimes the experiences are downloaded incorrectly, the clone does not know it is an expendible meat puppet used to go space dungeoneering.

You can have this happen as often or infrequently as you like. Make there be a save vs Edu or there be some skill loss. Make a save vs End or the clone suffers a injury similar to an aging crisis.

This is just an alternative that I think would work in interesting ways for you and your group.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652250Jeff, I know you love Traveller. But you are sabotaging your own love. Every time someone dares to criticise Traveller in any, no matter how trivial way, or compares Traveller to other SciFi game and considers using it above it, you charge with a full blown frontal assault, that destroys the thread.

I didn't want to say it, because you are in general a good poster, but you need to calm down about Traveller a bit.

One of the biggest hurdles a gaming company has to overcome is its own fans.

Thanks for the feedback. I talked it over with the group and we're going to go with H&H. They aren't interested in avoiding combat.

I'll probably just look to Traveller for some guidance on how to re-balance the ships. I got confirmation from John Berry that every 10 tons is 10' x 10' x 10', meaning 1 ton is 100 cubic feet or a gross register ton. The tonnage doesn't jive with my vision of how big the sample ships (Luxury Cruise Liner, Attack Carrier) ought to be so I'll have to think on it.

Quote from: danbuter;652557One of the biggest hurdles a gaming company has to overcome is its own fans.

And you can just kiss my ass.

You're just mad because everyone isn't playing Traveller: New Era.

Quote from: danbuter;652614You're just mad because everyone isn't playing Traveller: New Era.

Or Megatraveller.  :p

If you can get through the COTI and GURPS Traveller forums unscathed,  you are pretty much free to use whatever version of Traveller out there without ill effects from canon players that will go after new prey.

Since no two Traveller gaming groups are alike, the whole canon thing seems very odd to begin with.  Marc Miller needs to be "out there" on camera talking to Traveller folk.  It would help disperse the canon crowds.  Other game designers are always on YouTube, talking about such and such.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;652620If you can get through the COTI and GURPS Traveller forums unscathed,  you are pretty much free to use whatever version of Traveller out there without ill effects from canon players that will go after new prey.

Since no two Traveller gaming groups are alike, the whole canon thing seems very odd to begin with.  Marc Miller needs to be "out there" on camera talking to Traveller folk.  It would help disperse the canon crowds.  Other game designers are always on YouTube, talking about such and such.

I don't think that Marc Miller is interested in "selling" his game. I think that he has comfortably gotten to the point where he is a dedicated hobbyist.

Here is an update on the T5 Kickstarter I recieved. Pay attention to the bolded part.

Quote from: Marc MillerProject Update #47: Progress Report On Shipping  
 
Posted by Marc "Traveller" Miller  
 
I am taking a break in the (pick one: deeply spiritually rewarding; seeming non-stop and unending) process of sending out the Kickstarter Traveller5 rewards to all of you to talk about the process and its progress.

First, 90% of the Betas who were not involved in Kickstarter have been sent out.

Second, 90% of the non-book orders (CDROMs only) have been sent out; the US backers were relatively easy; the foreign shipments were somewhat more complex. The Post Office insists on a properly completed customs form. It is filled out in triplicate, and then the clerk literally discards the cop copy as I watch. The second copy is apparently alphabetized and then discarded 30 days later. The sticker that goes on the package is the only one that really matters.

Third, 90% of the upper tier rewards (the ones with slip cases) have been shipped. Alas, that leaves all the rest to be assembled and dispatched. Several hundred have gone out, mixed liberally between domestic and foreign, and between basic $100 and $150 tiers. It is slow going. First, I grab a batch of order sheets and conform that each has responded through Paypal, or otherwise communicated with me about address confirmation. Then, I cross check the Patents of Nobility and the TAS Cards with the order form. The cards are in numerical order by their secret number inkjetted on the back. I need to look up the appropriate name or world or noble rank and mark that number on the order sheet. [I know, if I were more prepared, or technologically proficient, or if I had planned better, this would be automated]. The Cards, you may remember, were the last thing to come in. One of the delays was the restrictions on what letters can be embossed on the cards. Diacritical marks, accents, and such don't work. [They suggested I use inkjetting on the face rather than embossing, and I declined; it just wouldn't look right]. In any case, I need to check though the various cards and note those needed for the order.

There are other issues with the cards (a Knighthood for Sir Alicia; I incompletely vetted for gender) which I expect to remedy with an errata run for a variety of card issues, probably in mid year.

Finally, I set myself up with the various components. The dice and coin swag has been previously assembled. So have the Dice Sets. I take a book and inscribe it to the recipient. This is perhaps the most time-consuming. But also the most important. It would be easier to just sign my name on a hundred books at a time, that that is not the spirit of my commitment. Because I do not know each of you personally, the inscription is usually

To

Thank you for your support for this project.

Marc Miller

Once inscribed, I put the book in a protective corrugated box. I have been inserting an 8.5 x 11 map of the Spinward Marches. While the supply lasted, I also inserted a blank certificate of Knighthood and or Barony (these are not the Patents; just some extras I had available). In a separate padded envelope, I put the CDROM, the swag bag, and some small options that may have been ordered. As required, I also pull the TShirts, dice sets, other CDROMs, and such. All of these go into a Medium Flat Rate Priority Mail box which I seal up securely.

Note the corrugated box for the book. The Core Rules book weighs just under 6 pounds, and without that protective box, just wrapped in paper or bubble wrap, it would not survive shipment. With a stack of assembled packages, I then sit at the computer and create labels through Paypal shipping. For most of you, an email is sent out when this label is created. Finally the whole batch goes on the front porch for the letter carrier to pick up at about 10 AM each morning. Foreign orders are a special case; because of the customs forms requirements, I send then through a service locally and there are often not email notifications sent. I keep appreciating everyone's patience (OK, a very few have expressed impatience, I have tried to respond calmly and appropriately] and I appreciate it. Some of my friends have suggested bringing in some help, and I do use some robot labor to pre-assemble components. But the packaging process, while time-consuming, is also a labor of love. I want each shipment to be right, and to express my sincere appreciation of your support. As each sheet comes up, I am able to write my thank you in your book and out the other rewards together. When there isn't a card with a name, I still get to select a nice knighthood or TAS Card and insert it in the mix.

While I am working hard on this, and it consumes most of my day, I am also enjoying it more than you know. Just the process of seeing each of your support is a humbling experience.

Thank you. Oh, you want a forecast of when these will all go out? My current rate of 40 or 50 per day means these should all be shipped by mid May. Since I have plane tickets to Colombia for May 13, that's just about right. And that's my goal... everything shipped by May 12.

Now, he and his wife are doing all the order fullfillment by themselves. They want to. Luke Crane lies about his "love letter" to D&D. This is Marc Miller sending a thank you to his Traveller fans and supporters and it is the real thing. It is important to Marc Miller and a very personal process for him in thanks for decades of fan support.

Marc Miller is not interested in selling Traveller, he is interested in thanking the fans for selling it for him.

Quote from: jeff37923;652639Marc Miller is not interested in selling Traveller, he is interested in thanking the fans for selling it for him.

You mean buying it from him.  The fans are not selling Traveller to anyone.  They are just screaming, "Where's mine!"  Only fanboys participated in the KickStarter.  Not many RPGers, that have only been in the hobby for twenty years or less, have heard of Traveller 5 (or Traveller even).

Quote from: amacris;652566Thanks for the feedback. I talked it over with the group and we're going to go with H&H. They aren't interested in avoiding combat.

I'll probably just look to Traveller for some guidance on how to re-balance the ships. I got confirmation from John Berry that every 10 tons is 10' x 10' x 10', meaning 1 ton is 100 cubic feet or a gross register ton. The tonnage doesn't jive with my vision of how big the sample ships (Luxury Cruise Liner, Attack Carrier) ought to be so I'll have to think on it.

The general guidelines I followed in development for deciding the ship classes was mostly real world naval and aerial vessels.  A Type VIII hull even is more USS Enterprise the real-world Naval Vessel, than USS Enterprise, boldly going to Klingon space.  The inspiration for the Attack Carrier for instance, was the TCS Tiger's Claw, which was always closer in size to a small RL aircraft carrier, than to some monstrous star destroyer type of thing.

As for the Horror vs. Silliness, I've always been a bit more of an Evil Dead fan than straight horror, so I don't necessarily see them as incompatible. ;)  But dropping some of the odder items should be doable, though it would of course limit the size of the equipment list further.  

Traveller was a big inspiration for me, it's one of my favorite games by far, thanks in no small part to Jeff's gift of a copy of the LBB digest. The idea of the surveyors being "working-class explorers" was definitely inspired directly by the similar "working-class/space trucker" vibe in Traveller, and I think you could easily drop the Guild into the Traveller universe, or even drop the Traveller universe in to H&H. Obviously you'd need to work out some mechanical bits here and there of course.

Quote from: J Arcane;652658The general guidelines I followed in development for deciding the ship classes was mostly real world naval and aerial vessels.  A Type VIII hull even is more USS Enterprise the real-world Naval Vessel, than USS Enterprise, boldly going to Klingon space.  The inspiration for the Attack Carrier for instance, was the TCS Tiger's Claw, which was always closer in size to a small RL aircraft carrier, than to some monstrous star destroyer type of thing.

Thanks for jumping in. That's helpful in understanding the sizing. With regard to the pricing, it's lower than what one would expect for military vessels. Is the answer to this because (a) they are subsidized by the guild; (b) things are cheaper in the future due to mass production; or (c) if you keep asking me econ questions I'm going to eat your face with a xenoform?

QuoteAs for the Horror vs. Silliness, I've always been a bit more of an Evil Dead fan than straight horror, so I don't necessarily see them as incompatible. ;)  But dropping some of the odder items should be doable, though it would of course limit the size of the equipment list further.  

Hah! I fear I'm rather humorless in comparison to that. Anyway, it's easy enough to adjust -- I'm just importing Traveller items. H&H looks to be at what Traveller would call TL 12, with alien artifacts at 13-17+.

QuoteTraveller was a big inspiration for me, it's one of my favorite games by far, thanks in no small part to Jeff's gift of a copy of the LBB digest. The idea of the surveyors being "working-class explorers" was definitely inspired directly by the similar "working-class/space trucker" vibe in Traveller, and I think you could easily drop the Guild into the Traveller universe, or even drop the Traveller universe in to H&H. Obviously you'd need to work out some mechanical bits here and there of course.

The Traveller inspiration really comes through. In many ways H&H takes my favorite parts of D&D and my favorite parts of Traveller. Particularly how you codified space dungeoneering with the pod colonies, space hulks, complexes, hazards, and so on.

Quote from: amacris;652681Thanks for jumping in. That's helpful in understanding the sizing. With regard to the pricing, it's lower than what one would expect for military vessels. Is the answer to this because (a) they are subsidized by the guild; (b) things are cheaper in the future due to mass production; or (c) if you keep asking me econ questions I'm going to eat your face with a xenoform?

When it comes to how I write sci-fi, the general rule is "when in doubt, assume (c)" ... ;)

But as for costs, much of this boils down to the fact that the value of what the surveyor's find and get paid for what they do is a lot more than most normal people probably make back in civilized space. A ship mortgage for something even capable of actually travelling to an uncharted sector is going to be outside the price range of most individuals in regular space (notice for instance, that the standard vessel actually doesn't even have fuel tanks enough to get to an uncharted sector).

So a successful PC crew might indeed get lucky enough to afford their very own Attack Carrier someday, but that doesn't mean most normal folks could make anywhere near that.  but then, most regular employment doesn't carry the risk of having your brains chewed out through the ear by a neurovore.

QuoteHah! I fear I'm rather humorless in comparison to that. Anyway, it's easy enough to adjust -- I'm just importing Traveller items. H&H looks to be at what Traveller would call TL 12, with alien artifacts at 13-17+.

The Traveller inspiration really comes through. In many ways H&H takes my favorite parts of D&D and my favorite parts of Traveller. Particularly how you codified space dungeoneering with the pod colonies, space hulks, complexes, hazards, and so on.

I felt very strongly in working on H&H that an important part of any dungeoneering game is tools to make dungeons. It literally didn't even seem a reasonable option to me NOT to include such tools.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;652650You mean buying it from him.  The fans are not selling Traveller to anyone.  They are just screaming, "Where's mine!"  Only fanboys participated in the KickStarter.  Not many RPGers, that have only been in the hobby for twenty years or less, have heard of Traveller 5 (or Traveller even).

Meh. Haters gonna hate.

Quote from: amacris;652216(b) the silliness factor in many of the items that are present; it works against the space-horror vibe the game otherwise has; (c)

I haven't read H&H, can you give some examples?

Quote from: RPGPundit;654630I haven't read H&H, can you give some examples?

The "technological wonders" section has quite a few gems, if I do say so myself. ;)

The forest in a can, the murderous teddy bear robot, the belt-buckle-mounted interplanetary hoverbike, and the matter-transmuting instant gumbo cooker are personal favorites.

Quote from: J Arcane;654638The "technological wonders" section has quite a few gems, if I do say so myself. ;)

The forest in a can, the murderous teddy bear robot, the belt-buckle-mounted interplanetary hoverbike, and the matter-transmuting instant gumbo cooker are personal favorites.

Those do sound a bit troubling as far as running a "serious" game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;655586Those do sound a bit troubling as far as running a "serious" game.

RPGPundit

I don't necessarily see H&H as being un-serious, but being serious was never high on the priority list. The goal is as much Douglas Adams, Doctor Who, and Gamma World type SF as it is Alien and Firefly.

It's just the kind of game I wanted to make. I think you can't do the kind of trope-mashing that D&D is famous for in the sci-fi space without being willing to be silly about it.

Quote from: J Arcane;655598I don't necessarily see H&H as being un-serious, but being serious was never high on the priority list. The goal is as much Douglas Adams, Doctor Who, and Gamma World type SF as it is Alien and Firefly.

It's just the kind of game I wanted to make. I think you can't do the kind of trope-mashing that D&D is famous for in the sci-fi space without being willing to be silly about it.

Yeah, well, I think all of the above could probably be excised by a GM for a more "serious" game, as long as there aren't essential parts of the mechanics or the setting that make it impossible to have that kind of game...

Quote from: RPGPundit;656040Yeah, well, I think all of the above could probably be excised by a GM for a more "serious" game, as long as there aren't essential parts of the mechanics or the setting that make it impossible to have that kind of game...

Oh certainly. I don't do much in the way of "baked in" when it comes to game design. You could certainly ignore the sillier bits, or come up with more "serious" replacements for it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;656040Yeah, well, I think all of the above could probably be excised by a GM for a more "serious" game, as long as there aren't essential parts of the mechanics or the setting that make it impossible to have that kind of game...

That's exactly what I did for my H&H campaign. The following items are probably also generally useful for anyone running H&H. (John, feel free to post these on your site if you like them).

Forest in a Can: Replace with Personal Shield Belt. Emits a field of disrupting particles to protect the user. Reduces AC by -4. If a character is struck while wearing it, the discharge of particles short-circuits the belt until it has recharged. Otherwise, the belt has power for 2 hours of use, and takes 8 hours to re-charge. 12,000 credits.

Hoverboard: Replace with Gravjet Pack. This backpack-sized device can reach altitudes of up to 200 feet and travel at speeds of up to 90mph. The wearer gains a +4 bonus to DEX checks to charge, close with targets under cover, dodge, or save. Due to the small size of its antigravity emitters, the Gravjet Pack can fail under stress; if the wearer rolls a natural 20 while making a DEX check, the Pack breaks and he crashes to the ground. 75,000 credits.

Instant Gumbo Cooker: Replace with Nutrient Dispenser. This device is about the size of a boom box. It gathers organic matter from the surrounding environment and processes it into small pills with enough nutrients for up to 6 people to survive one day. To function properly, the Nutrient Dispenser must be "tuned" each morning to the environment in which it is being used, which requires a successful INT check. The GM rolls the check in secret. Failure on the INT check results in the pills lacking nutritional value, while a natural 20 results in the pills being toxic, requiring a CON save to avoiding losing 1 random stat point. 10,000 credits.

Pet Rock: Replace with Smart Drones. These tiny explosive probes seek out their assigned target even around corners, following him up to 120'. When they detonate, they deal 2d6 + 3 damage (save v. DEX to avoid). 2d4 Smart Drones are found. 1,000 credits per drone.

Pocket Dimensional Case: Replace with Psi Shielding Helm. When targeted by psychic powers which permit a WIS saving throw, the wear gains a +2 bonus to his save. When targeted by psychic powers which do not permit a WIS saving throw, the wearer is permitted to make a WIS save at his normal bonus. Psychic powers cannot be used while wearing a Psi Shielding Helm. 50,000 credits.

TED-3: Replace with Portable Autodoc. This short baton can function as a synthetic skin emitter (heal 1d6 damage, 1/hour), laser cauterizer (heal 2d6+3 damage, 1/day), or microsurgery nanobot injector (heal 3d6+6 damage, 1/week). As specific biology and condition can vary greatly, the Portable Autodoc must be attuned to the creature being healed each time it is used, requiring an INT check. On a failure the device only heals the minimum damage. On a natural 20, the Portable Autodoc malfunctions, dealing damage instead of healing it! 30,000 credits.

The Axe: Replace with Psi-Lance. This device appears as a baton or sword hilt of iridium. It contains a core of psychoactive material. A Psyker or Bearman can cause the device to emit a lance of psychic force which functions as a +3 Laser Sword, but drains 1 Psi each combat round. Alternatively, the Psi-Lance can fire beam of energy which deals 1-3d6 damage (Save vs. DEX to avoid) to targets at range, at a cost of 1 Psi per 1d6. 25,000 credits.

Universal Credentials: Replace with Invisibility Collar. This device appears as smooth collar of iridium. It couples and decouples from the neck fluidly, despite having no apparent clasp. When worn, this psychoactive device emits a psychic field which blanks the minds of those nearby, making the wearer temporarily undetectable to sentient and non-sentient organic life forms (they just don't notice him). He will still be detectable by artificial life forms and electronic devices. The device draws its power from the wearer's Psi, costing 1 point per combat round. If the wearer has no Psi Points, he takes 1 hp of damage per combat round.  50,000 credits.

Water Pants: Replace with Micro Wormhole Generator. This device is about the size of a backpack radio. It relies on a Casimir array to create a temporary wormhole between two surfaces within line of sight of the device. The hole is large enough for a man to walk through. Placing the wormholes successfully requires an INT check. One placed, the wormhole lasts for one combat round. The user must make an INT check each round for it to remain stable for one more round. The wormhole is only large enough for one man to walk through per combat round. If more than one person tries to pass through the wormhole in the same round, they must make opposed DEX checks to see which pushes through. 75,000 credits.

Hey now, despite the mocking name, I'll have you know that the "water pants" stem from that most hallowed and staid of SF series, under the name of "stillsuits."

No, no, I know - I only changed those because I made stillsuits available as non-wonders.

Quote from: amacris;656160Water Pants: Replace with Micro Wormhole Generator. This device is about the size of a backpack radio. It relies on a Casimir array to create a temporary wormhole between two surfaces within line of sight of the device. The hole is large enough for a man to walk through. Placing the wormholes successfully requires an INT check. One placed, the wormhole lasts for one combat round. The user must make an INT check each round for it to remain stable for one more round. The wormhole is only large enough for one man to walk through per combat round. If more than one person tries to pass through the wormhole in the same round, they must make opposed DEX checks to see which pushes through. 75,000 credits.

Couple of what-could-possibly-go-wrongs: nuke inna bag, open a wormhole to the surface of the nearest star, or open a wormhole to the nearest large gravity well and have it suck your ship along by rapidly opening and closing it to near relativistic speeds.

Quote from: The Traveller;656211Couple of what-could-possibly-go-wrongs: nuke inna bag, open a wormhole to the surface of the nearest star, or open a wormhole to the nearest large gravity well and have it suck your ship along by rapidly opening and closing it to near relativistic speeds.

In Portal 2, you use one to open a portal between Earth and the surface of the moon and such a rampaging supercomputer into space.

Quote from: The Traveller;656211Couple of what-could-possibly-go-wrongs: nuke inna bag, open a wormhole to the surface of the nearest star, or open a wormhole to the nearest large gravity well and have it suck your ship along by rapidly opening and closing it to near relativistic speeds.

Wow, sure, I suppose a sun and its planet are in "line of sight".

The device is based on a 3rd level Science power that are in J Arcane's official rules... Was that was what was intended, JArcane? I just thought it was sci-fi Dimension Door!

Quote from: amacris;656244Wow, sure, I suppose a sun and its planet are in "line of sight".

The device is based on a 3rd level Science power that are in J Arcane's official rules... Was that was what was intended, JArcane? I just thought it was sci-fi Dimension Door!

It's a portal gun. :) Or at least, a similar effect, and with a time limit to balance it a little.

Portals, the answer to Fermi's paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_kill_vehicle). Did you know that a thirty centimeter wide rock impacted on the moon this week? It had the force of five tons of TNT and the impact could be seen with the naked eye.

I'd love to see a Cepheus version of Hulks and horrors!

Quote from: amacris;652277Instead of trying to reduce the lethality, embrace it. Just make the PCs act like Cylon Skin Jobs.

Give each PC a neural interface link and a high tech comm which is in near constant communication with the home base (starship, colony, whatever). Everything the PC does is transmitted and downloaded into a mainframe. When that PC dies (actually a clone or biological robot/bioroid), everything gets downloaded into a new bioroid. The PC then has to restart the adventure from that location, even if it is not the same point in time. Death becomes a learning experience.

Of course, the signal can be jammed or lost or suffer significant dropout, leaving the newly awakened clone with no idea how the previous one died.

Sometimes the experiences are downloaded incorrectly, the clone does not know it is an expendible meat puppet used to go space dungeoneering.

I'm kind of fond of this idea; it reminds me of Phantasy Star II which I used to play on Sega. Saving the game was a memory upload and "resurrection" of dead party members was cloning from the upload iirc.

Quote from: michaeltaylor1329@hotmail on August 25, 2024, 12:05:19 PMI'd love to see a Cepheus version of Hulks and horrors!

Ah, I was going to mention that Cepheus Engine would be a better 2d6 sci-fi game to hack to what you want.  Basically Trav with all the lore hacked off. 

Quote from: michaeltaylor1329@hotmail on August 25, 2024, 12:05:19 PMI'd love to see a Cepheus version of Hulks and horrors!

It's called Hostile by Zozer Games.

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 26, 2024, 02:17:34 AM

Quote from: michaeltaylor1329@hotmail on August 25, 2024, 12:05:19 PMI'd love to see a Cepheus version of Hulks and horrors!

It's called Hostile by Zozer Games.

I have never seen Hulks and Horrors, but I do have Traveller, Cepheus and Hostile. They are all hugely interchangeable and I use books from all 3 in my homebrew setting.

One thing I do like from Hostile is in the character creation there is a check you make after each term in training / life event phase to see if it unvoluntary ends there and you are forced to end character creation then and there as is. Plus, the chance increased each term so eventually you will be spit out of character creation into the hard cold dangerous void of space and forced to start play. It limits players creating uber experienced characters.