Quote from: amacris;652216Yes, H&H could work with a lot of backgrounds. That said, I do like the default "Surveyor's Guild/Plague Horror" background a lot. It get's the job done without a lot of overhead.

It's a good solid easy to expand background. There is also the fear of the Plague being unleashed again.

Quote from: amacris;652216What I dislike is (a) the limited equipment list, (b) the silliness factor in many of the items that are present; it works against the space-horror vibe the game otherwise has; (c) the fact I haven't been able to make any sense at all of the masses and sizes of the starships, or their costs.

I am nitpicking through H&H this week and I am going to start a Question Thread for J Arcane. I agree on the silliness factor, but it works for me. But I like gonzo and miss the wackiness of Rogue Trader which got lost in the grimdark of 40k. My preference for space horror is grim + dark + gonzo.
 
I am doing some sample shipbuilding to get a feel for that subsystem.

Quote from: amacris;652216So those points made me want to see if there might be a way to apply Traveller in those areas and/or just use Traveller as the system as H&H as the toolkit.

Having run lots of Space Horror with Traveller, I don't see any problem. I am a fan of Cthonian Stars and as long as you and your players are cool with the high bodycount, then go for it!

I ran Aliens and AVP campaigns with Traveller and never had a problem, but my players knew how deadly the setting was going to be in advance (aka, just like the movie except without movie star protections). It wasn't uncommon to lose 2-10 PCs in a session of 6 players with 2 PCs each. In chargen, each PC had to have a Quirk that made them unique which added to the fun. It was always sad when somebody with a cool quirk died.

I remember there was a grunt whose quirk was regularly referring to "I gotta get me some bubbajello" and when he died in battle, the survivors wanted to roleplay his wake at the bar.

Quote from: Spinachcat;652331I am nitpicking through H&H this week and I am going to start a Question Thread for J Arcane. I agree on the silliness factor, but it works for me. But I like gonzo and miss the wackiness of Rogue Trader which got lost in the grimdark of 40k. My preference for space horror is grim + dark + gonzo.  

Hah, I like dark + wierd + possibility of heroism. The forest in the can / salad slicer / hoverboard-that-doesn't-work-on-water is all a bit too silly and/or referential for me. I have enough trouble keeping my players from constantly making 80s jokes and Simpson humor without the game doing it for them! That's easy to tweak though.

What's really got me is that the ship math is completely eluding me. The ship's length increases linearly with class. So does mass. But mass should increase with volume. So the implication is that the ships are just getting longer without getting wider and deeper. That is not really how I imagine ships, I guess. Moreover, the changes in price and hull points don't reflect the linearity.

The pricing itself is quite wacky. Spaceship are less expensive than private boats and planes today. Spaceships can't be that cheap in a guild-based system with quarantined systems; there'd be no way to maintain the guild or the quarantine. One possibility is that they are actually are 10x to 100x more expensive, but subsidized by the guild or government. [I know, I know, handwave it. It's not in my nature.]

I'm also wondering how large space station rooms, pod rooms, and ship rooms are supposed to be. It's implicit in the rules that they have a standardized geomorphic framework, and it seems like knowing what that is would make things a lot easier to roll up.

QuoteHaving run lots of Space Horror with Traveller, I don't see any problem. I am a fan of Cthonian Stars and as long as you and your players are cool with the high bodycount, then go for it!

My players enjoy having that high bodycount initially - we all like the "1st level D&D experience" and the idea that you start as a mook. But they like to invest in the characters that live, and they don't enjoy a constant high bodycount on an ongoing basis. That seems like the big difference between, say, D&D and Traveller. In Traveller, I can have maximum ability scores and Gun Combat-5 and still die in one round - nothing gives a highly skilled character a mechanical improvement on defense. D&D gives you hp so you're sturdier; and even most 'deadly' games let you become harder to hit (even Cyberpunk 2020 made you harder to hit with high REF). So that's what I'm wrestling with.

I am not by any stretch an expert in Traveller, but I have an idea.

Why not just tack on a hit point mechanic? You could give PCs hit points equal to Endurance and let them be depleted before applying damage to actual attributes.

Quote from: amacris;652344The ship's length increases linearly with class. So does mass. But mass should increase with volume. So the implication is that the ships are just getting longer without getting wider and deeper.

I did not notice this! I will keep it in mind when I do my sample ships and try to figure out the math there.

Quote from: amacris;652344Spaceship are less expensive than private boats and planes today. Spaceships can't be that cheap in a guild-based system with quarantined systems; there'd be no way to maintain the guild or the quarantine.

I get the feeling that in H&H, space ships = private boats, so even a few mooks could chip in and get a soggy bottomed scow. The guild controls the navigational charts so the vast majority of people don't even know how to get from A to B without guild permission. Most ships are probably just sailed on well known routes between "safe" worlds. Also, you gotta be a nutter to travel to quarantine worlds and that probably keeps most people out.

I bet enough spacers bring back video of their adventures to keep the public quite panicked about the monsters that live in the quarantine.

I also get the sense that the guild is much more about being middlemen than enforcers. They can't stop you from going to Planet B, but the space government only recognizes guilder claims.

Quote from: amacris;652344One possibility is that they are actually are 10x to 100x more expensive, but subsidized by the guild or government. [I know, I know, handwave it. It's not in my nature.]

The subsized option sounds good.

Quote from: amacris;652344But they like to invest in the characters that live, and they don't enjoy a constant high bodycount on an ongoing basis.

Traveller, like CoC, encourages PCs to avoid combat and think around situations if possible. H&H and D&D are all about the mosh. Their mosh is still deadly, just not as insano as Trav or CoC.

BTW, if you are a White Wolf fan, I highly suggest looking at Trinity (originally Aeon, then Aeon Trinity, then just Trinity). The characters are very sturdy. They are all powerful psionics with a variety of powers and I did a xenoarcheology campaign with them that was very fun for a group who wanted lots of danger, but not slaughter.

Some Traveller referees don't mind having to add their own details to a bare-bones GDW module that was written in 1981, that was written for a bare-bones SF RPG.  I, as a young'n, was not amused going through that stuff.  SPI would later come out with their Universe RPG.  But it had too much mechanic involved compared to Classic Traveller. It got cancelled anyway soon after.

I'm not a fan of hit points.  Hit points lead to video games.  Which leads to Skyrim, where a Redguard character never needs to worry about dying and can tank his way through any encounter.  It also helps that Skyrim is like swimming in a vast ocean that is only 3ft deep.

Anyway, Mongoose Traveller handles combat a little less deadly than Classic Traveller, and without using hit points still.  Damage goes directly to your character's attributes rather to some countdown pointer.  This kind of Traveller was not meant to be played like an Elder Scrolls game where you are a hobo serial killer.  Classic Traveller's skills are kind of vague and precise.  Mongoose has a better skill set.  Anyway, look at the skills for the Traveller version you're thinking of playing so you can see just what it is exactly that Traveller characters do in a game (other than kill/be killed).  If the skills don't jump out at you, then that version of Traveller is not for you.  In general (but especially in the Mongoose version) Traveller is all about the skills your character has.  Otherwise, you are going strictly on your attributes only for skill checks.

ADDED:
95% of the time, combat is to be avoided in Traveller.  But if combat is the only game in town, wear armor.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;652448I'm not a fan of hit points.  Hit points lead to video games.  Which leads to Skyrim, where a Redguard character never needs to worry about dying and can tank his way through any encounter.

Only if you mix them up with levels. If they remain relatively static throughout a character's lifespan, they work as well as anything else.

Quote from: amacris;652277OK. Since you are the site's expert in Traveller, what is your opinion on ways to reduce the lethality of Traveller combat on PCs? Here are some of the ideas I've seen and/or am bandying about. I'm working from Mongoose Traveller as my baseline.

1) When you Dodge, you apply your Athletics as a DM to the attacker's die roll. (Like melee with parrying)
a) Same idea, but you apply your Gun Combat instead, on the assumption that the skill includes defensive tactics.
b) Same idea, but you apply some sort of Armor skill instead.
2) Use Judge Dredd/Strontium Dog Special Techniques
3) Use Advantages/Disadvantages from Chthonian Stars
4) Use Hero Points from Supplement 9: Campaign Guide
5) Other thoughts??

Sorry for the delay, but I had to go to work.
I'm actually glad because it gave me time to think about this.

Instead of trying to reduce the lethality, embrace it. Just make the PCs act like Cylon Skin Jobs.

Give each PC a neural interface link and a high tech comm which is in near constant communication with the home base (starship, colony, whatever). Everything the PC does is transmitted and downloaded into a mainframe. When that PC dies (actually a clone or biological robot/bioroid), everything gets downloaded into a new bioroid. The PC then has to restart the adventure from that location, even if it is not the same point in time. Death becomes a learning experience.

Of course, the signal can be jammed or lost or suffer significant dropout, leaving the newly awakened clone with no idea how the previous one died.

Sometimes the experiences are downloaded incorrectly, the clone does not know it is an expendible meat puppet used to go space dungeoneering.

You can have this happen as often or infrequently as you like. Make there be a save vs Edu or there be some skill loss. Make a save vs End or the clone suffers a injury similar to an aging crisis.

This is just an alternative that I think would work in interesting ways for you and your group.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652250Jeff, I know you love Traveller. But you are sabotaging your own love. Every time someone dares to criticise Traveller in any, no matter how trivial way, or compares Traveller to other SciFi game and considers using it above it, you charge with a full blown frontal assault, that destroys the thread.

I didn't want to say it, because you are in general a good poster, but you need to calm down about Traveller a bit.

One of the biggest hurdles a gaming company has to overcome is its own fans.

Thanks for the feedback. I talked it over with the group and we're going to go with H&H. They aren't interested in avoiding combat.

I'll probably just look to Traveller for some guidance on how to re-balance the ships. I got confirmation from John Berry that every 10 tons is 10' x 10' x 10', meaning 1 ton is 100 cubic feet or a gross register ton. The tonnage doesn't jive with my vision of how big the sample ships (Luxury Cruise Liner, Attack Carrier) ought to be so I'll have to think on it.

Quote from: danbuter;652557One of the biggest hurdles a gaming company has to overcome is its own fans.

And you can just kiss my ass.

You're just mad because everyone isn't playing Traveller: New Era.

Quote from: danbuter;652614You're just mad because everyone isn't playing Traveller: New Era.

Or Megatraveller.  

If you can get through the COTI and GURPS Traveller forums unscathed,  you are pretty much free to use whatever version of Traveller out there without ill effects from canon players that will go after new prey.

Since no two Traveller gaming groups are alike, the whole canon thing seems very odd to begin with.  Marc Miller needs to be "out there" on camera talking to Traveller folk.  It would help disperse the canon crowds.  Other game designers are always on YouTube, talking about such and such.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;652620If you can get through the COTI and GURPS Traveller forums unscathed,  you are pretty much free to use whatever version of Traveller out there without ill effects from canon players that will go after new prey.

Since no two Traveller gaming groups are alike, the whole canon thing seems very odd to begin with.  Marc Miller needs to be "out there" on camera talking to Traveller folk.  It would help disperse the canon crowds.  Other game designers are always on YouTube, talking about such and such.

I don't think that Marc Miller is interested in "selling" his game. I think that he has comfortably gotten to the point where he is a dedicated hobbyist.

Here is an update on the T5 Kickstarter I recieved. Pay attention to the bolded part.

Quote from: Marc MillerProject Update #47: Progress Report On Shipping  
 
Posted by Marc "Traveller" Miller  
 
I am taking a break in the (pick one: deeply spiritually rewarding; seeming non-stop and unending) process of sending out the Kickstarter Traveller5 rewards to all of you to talk about the process and its progress.

First, 90% of the Betas who were not involved in Kickstarter have been sent out.

Second, 90% of the non-book orders (CDROMs only) have been sent out; the US backers were relatively easy; the foreign shipments were somewhat more complex. The Post Office insists on a properly completed customs form. It is filled out in triplicate, and then the clerk literally discards the cop copy as I watch. The second copy is apparently alphabetized and then discarded 30 days later. The sticker that goes on the package is the only one that really matters.

Third, 90% of the upper tier rewards (the ones with slip cases) have been shipped. Alas, that leaves all the rest to be assembled and dispatched. Several hundred have gone out, mixed liberally between domestic and foreign, and between basic $100 and $150 tiers. It is slow going. First, I grab a batch of order sheets and conform that each has responded through Paypal, or otherwise communicated with me about address confirmation. Then, I cross check the Patents of Nobility and the TAS Cards with the order form. The cards are in numerical order by their secret number inkjetted on the back. I need to look up the appropriate name or world or noble rank and mark that number on the order sheet. [I know, if I were more prepared, or technologically proficient, or if I had planned better, this would be automated]. The Cards, you may remember, were the last thing to come in. One of the delays was the restrictions on what letters can be embossed on the cards. Diacritical marks, accents, and such don't work. [They suggested I use inkjetting on the face rather than embossing, and I declined; it just wouldn't look right]. In any case, I need to check though the various cards and note those needed for the order.

There are other issues with the cards (a Knighthood for Sir Alicia; I incompletely vetted for gender) which I expect to remedy with an errata run for a variety of card issues, probably in mid year.

Finally, I set myself up with the various components. The dice and coin swag has been previously assembled. So have the Dice Sets. I take a book and inscribe it to the recipient. This is perhaps the most time-consuming. But also the most important. It would be easier to just sign my name on a hundred books at a time, that that is not the spirit of my commitment. Because I do not know each of you personally, the inscription is usually

To

Thank you for your support for this project.

Marc Miller

Once inscribed, I put the book in a protective corrugated box. I have been inserting an 8.5 x 11 map of the Spinward Marches. While the supply lasted, I also inserted a blank certificate of Knighthood and or Barony (these are not the Patents; just some extras I had available). In a separate padded envelope, I put the CDROM, the swag bag, and some small options that may have been ordered. As required, I also pull the TShirts, dice sets, other CDROMs, and such. All of these go into a Medium Flat Rate Priority Mail box which I seal up securely.

Note the corrugated box for the book. The Core Rules book weighs just under 6 pounds, and without that protective box, just wrapped in paper or bubble wrap, it would not survive shipment. With a stack of assembled packages, I then sit at the computer and create labels through Paypal shipping. For most of you, an email is sent out when this label is created. Finally the whole batch goes on the front porch for the letter carrier to pick up at about 10 AM each morning. Foreign orders are a special case; because of the customs forms requirements, I send then through a service locally and there are often not email notifications sent. I keep appreciating everyone's patience (OK, a very few have expressed impatience, I have tried to respond calmly and appropriately] and I appreciate it. Some of my friends have suggested bringing in some help, and I do use some robot labor to pre-assemble components. But the packaging process, while time-consuming, is also a labor of love. I want each shipment to be right, and to express my sincere appreciation of your support. As each sheet comes up, I am able to write my thank you in your book and out the other rewards together. When there isn't a card with a name, I still get to select a nice knighthood or TAS Card and insert it in the mix.

While I am working hard on this, and it consumes most of my day, I am also enjoying it more than you know. Just the process of seeing each of your support is a humbling experience.

Thank you. Oh, you want a forecast of when these will all go out? My current rate of 40 or 50 per day means these should all be shipped by mid May. Since I have plane tickets to Colombia for May 13, that's just about right. And that's my goal... everything shipped by May 12.

Now, he and his wife are doing all the order fullfillment by themselves. They want to. Luke Crane lies about his "love letter" to D&D. This is Marc Miller sending a thank you to his Traveller fans and supporters and it is the real thing. It is important to Marc Miller and a very personal process for him in thanks for decades of fan support.

Marc Miller is not interested in selling Traveller, he is interested in thanking the fans for selling it for him.

Quote from: jeff37923;652639Marc Miller is not interested in selling Traveller, he is interested in thanking the fans for selling it for him.

You mean buying it from him.  The fans are not selling Traveller to anyone.  They are just screaming, "Where's mine!"  Only fanboys participated in the KickStarter.  Not many RPGers, that have only been in the hobby for twenty years or less, have heard of Traveller 5 (or Traveller even).