This is the real question to be asking.
We all KNOW exactly what a successful entry-level RPG looks like: D&D basic. Fighting Fantasy. TMNT. Robotech. RIFTS.
I don't give a fuck whether you like those games or not, they're the ones with the style that has worked to bring in new gamers, and nothing else has.
So let's fucking MOVE ON to the next question: because you could you have the best entry-level RPG in the universe, and its going to be worth fuck all if you can only sell it through Lulu to people on internet forums, or even if you can only get it sold in FLGSes.
How would you get over that, which is the REAL barrier (not "figuring out what game to make", EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOWS the answer to that).
RPGPundit
- Massive advertising on Cartoon Network, G4 and other "Youth" outlet.
- Distribution via big distributors (Toys R Us, B&N etc).
- Heavy internet marketing arm. Applications that sell the game in the minds of kids.
- Find a way to involve other technological outlets such as iPods, Cell Phones and such.
That'd be grosso modo the modus operandi to revive the 1980's marketing strategy adapted to the specificities of the moment we're in right now.
I'm not sure that would work though.
The question that comes to my mind is "Do the kids have to be the targets of the marketing here?" After all, wouldn't older targets be more succeptible to like the specificities of tabletop gaming?
With my existing budget? On-line ads on major sites, personally to nearby stores, and eventually at local cons.
With the budget of a low to mid tier game company? At Gencon and Origins, in related magazines and comics, on line, and ideally with a FaceBook game.
With WOTC's budget but not Hasbro's apparent resistance to seeing D&D on the toy store shelves? Well, obviously I'd want the game on the shelves of the toy stores. However I'd notch the miniatures up to 1/32 and make them modular kits. Flesh coloured hands and heads, brown boots and spear shafts, that kind of thing. I might even go to a full action figure creation kit.
I am firmly of the belief that a quality product will out if produced with consistant support and respect for the customer. So if you want the single aspect I'd focus on that would be my target, consistant support (no new edition, thanks) and respect for the customer (so no new edition, thanks). I'll add to this my belief that if Palladium had cleaned up their system when Rifts came out they'd have been able to take and keep the number one spot when TSR went down. However, I don't think they'd have been able to compete with the Magic the Gathering / Pokemon cash WotC brought into the buyout.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320643This is the real question to be asking.
We all KNOW exactly what a successful entry-level RPG looks like: D&D basic. Fighting Fantasy. TMNT. Robotech. RIFTS.
I don't give a fuck whether you like those games or not, they're the ones with the style that has worked to bring in new gamers, and nothing else has.
Umm... you left WW Vampire off of the list. It did bring in new gamers.
Benoist has most of the areas covered that you wold need to hit.
But you don't need to kidify the advertising... Make the game simple enough so that 10-12 year olds can understand and play it. But you don't want it to be percieved as a 'child's game' that they will grow out of.
.
According to
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814
there will be a D&D version of Heroscape released in Feb 2010, as well as a Ravenloft board game in Aug 2010.
It will be interesting to see if they catch on with kids and other non-rpg people.
Assuming a good economy then I think Benoist is probably dead on in his assessment. You have to get the game to the intended market audience and that means advertising where the intended audience will see it, and put it somewhere they can actually pick it up and buy it (sorry FLGS). It also needs to have a heavy online presence in all of the social media areas as well as its own site that offers free access to dice rollers and virtual tabletops (It looks like someone with a little web programming skills could get Google wave to do this). It might even be beneficial to have a second life type online interface to pull in the WoW fan base.
Quote from: Benoist;320646- Massive advertising on Cartoon Network, G4 and other "Youth" outlet.
- Distribution via big distributors (Toys R Us, B&N etc).
- Heavy internet marketing arm. Applications that sell the game in the minds of kids.
- Find a way to involve other technological outlets such as iPods, Cell Phones and such.
That'd be grosso modo the modus operandi to revive the 1980's marketing strategy adapted to the specificities of the moment we're in right now.
I'm not sure that would work though.
The question that comes to my mind is "Do the kids have to be the targets of the marketing here?" After all, wouldn't older targets be more succeptible to like the specificities of tabletop gaming?
All,
I think that the common thread is twofold:
1) Existing gamers were excited about those games.
2) Potential new gamers could easily grasp the setting (I think it is unwise to assume new gamers have to have dumbed-down versions of the games we love, but I do not think it's a good idea to start new gamers on intricate, surreal settings like Talislanta either).
So, based on that, you need a two-pronged strategy.
1) You need to create buzz among existing gamers. Ideally, you will find a forum, blog and/or reviewer that mostly gets gamers of the same type the game is designed for. But, whatever it is, the budget needs to be light, because you are doing a two pronged attack.
2) Real advertising targeted at fans of the genre the game's setting is set in. So, if I were to hop in a time machine and not release Vampire until today, I would blitz Hot Topic and forget book stores or toy stores. Or, if I were releasing a fantasy game, maybe only hit toy stores and forget book stores. The idea is it has to be found in a place where a non-gamer who is a fan of that genre might be looking. And there has to be a way to create buzz for that too. So, like if it were a fantasy game, you would want to put banner ads on Harry Potter web sites or air TV ads when Legend of the Seeker is playing. That sort of thing.
Anyways, that is just my two cents.
Personally, I wonder if this sort of game is even possible any more. Any people that are real genre fans or nerd-types know about RPGs, its just a matter of making an RPG that appeals to their obsession. I mean how many copies of Buffy or Bubblegum Crisis have sold, versus how many people actually play the game. If you made a game that was set in a popular genre/license, and it was a good game that was fun to play, it would be an instant success. But I don't think it has to be a "basic set" anymore...
Quote from: Jaeger;320667Umm... you left WW Vampire off of the list. It did bring in new gamers.
Yes, its true, in a slightly different way than the others. The others created gamers. V:tM created White Wolf players, and some other companies started to make their games more like WW's games.
But NO ONE can question the genius of their marketing. Their game wasn't even an introductory game! But they just went and made a very intelligent effort at promoting the game specifically among a particular sub-culture that would find that particular game (and no other) appealing to them, and got tons of people playing that RPG who had never played RPGs before, never would have thought of playing RPGs before, and many who never played any other RPGs after.
RPGPundit
Hire a successful marketing firm to sell my product.
Quote from: Benoist;320646- Distribution via big distributors (Toys R Us, B&N etc).
I think this is key, if it is not for sale in Mainstream Stores, then it will not find many new players.
Yup, advertising. Back in the day it was hard for me not to run into ads for D&D. They were all over the place. Comics, TV, magazines, fantasy novels (TSR books anyway).
Of course the real question is how to get the game into Time, Newsweek and Today's Parent. Not necessarily in a bad way either. Personally I'd rather not have a string of murders associated with my product, though I'd take the resulting sales if it came of course.
Warhammer got a glowing spot in Today's Parent as free babysitting once.
Anyhow, some thoughts on the success of the big entry points.
Basic D&D was the right thing at just the right time. Tolkien, chess and computer geeks, seventies heavy metal, satanism, it was a perfect storm. But let's face it, there was nothing else out there to scratch the itch.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles And Other Strangeness was another freekish occurance. An obscure comic became a cult classic and got liscenced for an rpg when suddenly it was picked up by a major toy company and got a cartoon. Also, ninjas were a liscence to print money in the mid eighties. Good luck duplicating the conditions.
StarWars, the biggest liscence of all time, high production values, and a gaming market that had been dying for a StarWars game for years.
Vampire, like Basic D&D White Wolf managed to tap a growing subcultural movement driven in large part by a cult classic series of books and picked up steam when it was blamed for murders. Well it did.
Okay, so here's a thought: any liscence that's big enough to make a huge impact is too expensive. On the other hand two of the games on the list are no name knockoffs of the big liscence with their own unique spin and one was a tiny liscence that exploded randomly.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320726Yes, its true, in a slightly different way than the others. The others created gamers. V:tM created White Wolf players, and some other companies started to make their games more like WW's games.
But NO ONE can question the genius of their marketing. Their game wasn't even an introductory game!
That reminds me of a Gen Con seminar that FASA held to promote their new Shadowrun Second Edition. When asked what the biggest change in the new edition was they answered that they were surprised to learn that for many many gamers Shadowrun First Edition was the first RPG.
They never thought of it as an entry level game, in fact they didn't think of the possibility that newbies could even find that game.
These are activity books -- a collection of one-page puzzles and activities printed on ultra-cheap paper.
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:1NqwIE67fXBWMM:http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61QZb1jfQdL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)(http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:oVjuG01dK4oolM:http://www.lootlady.com/images/my%2520little%2520pony%2520fun%2520bagmarch%2520pics%2520020.jpg)(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:9jnLIxD5TX5hnM:http://www.theartstudentsleaguestore.org/images/edu/big/FO_HAS1.png)(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:9Wn8T311BW5wPM:http://www.timelesstrinkets.com/MyLittlePony/Images/BookPP.jpg)
As far as I can tell, they only make one kind of activity book -- the kind filled with girly activities. They brand some with Transformers and TMNT or whatever, but the activities themselves the sort of tedium that boys don't enjoy and as a result the few boy ABs stocked at my local supermarkets are laughably out of date, further compounding the problem.
Solution: Disguise the intro RPG as education disguised as an activity book. The parents will buy it to educate (and sedate) their boys. The boys will play it because RPGs are fun. Even if it's a flop, your RPG won't have it's covers ripped of and sent back for a refund because it will sit on the supermarket shelves between the glue and the romance novels for all time.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;320876Solution: Disguise the intro RPG as education disguised as an activity book. The parents will buy it to educate (and sedate) their boys. The boys will play it because RPGs are fun. Even if it's a flop, your RPG won't have it's covers ripped of and sent back for a refund because it will sit on the supermarket shelves between the glue and the romance novels for all time.
TSR tried this in 1990 with their Comic Modules
13 Assassin, Buck Rogers, Intruder, Warhawks, and
R.I.P. which, interestingly enough, covered a whole range of different genres and were not tied to the D&D brand. They were written and drawn by comic book luminaries of that time, Mike W. Barr, Alfredo Alcala, Roy "Conan the Barbarian" Thomas...
http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?pubID=11481&minyr=1990&maxyr=1995&SetSort=alpha
I would promote an entry-level RPG with someone else's money.
Make something simple. Make it something that teaches some basic mathematics skill (Addition for example.) Utilize a popular license (Transformers most likely in this case.)
Call it a teaching game and really focus on finding a way to get the action adventure and playing a character elements into the game. Do not make it collectible. One of the failures of the Pokemon mini RPG...which is otherwise quite nice. Collectible is fun for kids--not so much for adults, especially when their is no need for it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320643I don't give a fuck whether you like those games or not, they're the ones with the style that has worked to bring in new gamers, and nothing else has.
See how your verb there is in the past tense? There's a reason for that: Young adults can do other, and in their minds, better things these days.
So, in essence, your question is: How do I market a dog shit pie? Answer: You don't.
Seanchai
So your solution is basically euthanasia, Seanchai?
Well, good for you, go crawl over in that corner and die, if you like.
You are right about the "past tense" thing, but wrong about the reason: its not that kids stopped wanting to play RPGs, its that people stopped making these kinds of products. Its not that they waned in popularity. Its decidedly and markedly that the "Basic D&D" sets of the 90s were meant to be crappy crippleware that only existed to sell you the AD&D books, and then when that failed, everyone was shocked, SHOCKED; and declared "well, that's it, basic games must not work. I know, let's make only glossy hardcover books and charge uber-nerds $200 for them! Who needs new people? After all, our grotesquely overweight fanboys who never get any exercise and only eat pure grease will surely live forever!"
RPGpundit
There are around a hundred members of the role-play society at my Uni, if you assume 1/3rd of them are mature students like me, that still leaves 66 18 year olds that have found the way to the hobby. It is hardly a fucking geriatric only pastime.
What jadrax wrote.The hobby, if in a smaller size, will survive and renew. The industry? They are probably fucked in their current form.
Quote from: Silverlion;320919Do not make it collectible. One of the failures of the Pokemon mini RPG...which is otherwise quite nice. Collectible is fun for kids--not so much for adults, especially when their is no need for it.
The Pokemon jr. Adventure Game was not collectible. It was completely playable and not crippleware, and besides being labled "Set 1", a Set 2 never saw the light of day.
The game failed because of its reliance on a parent acting as a GM. Parents have no problem buying games for their children, even collectible ones--heck, they shelled out millions of $$$ for the Pokemon CCG, or Warhammer miniatures--but they want to be pretty much left alone after that.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;320976The Pokemon jr. Adventure Game was not collectible. It was completely playable and not crippleware, and besides being labled "Set 1", a Set 2 never saw the light of day.
It has pre-scripted adventures, and the lack of the second book limits it somewhat. So while not strictly collectible its close enough to be a bother. I picked up a copy for my friends kids, since they're more into the card game than not. It needed more. While it was playable, I still feel it was too little in the core set to really be effective.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320952So your solution is basically euthanasia, Seanchai?
You asked me how I would promote an entry level RPG. That's the answer. I wouldn't, because what worked 30 years ago, won't work today.
That's only the same as crawling over and dying in your febrile brain. As others have pointed out, many of us will be gaming in nursing homes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320952You are right about the "past tense" thing, but wrong about the reason: its not that kids stopped wanting to play RPGs, its that people stopped making these kinds of products.
Except they didn't. We've been over this and I typed up a list once. In fact, there's an entry-level D&D product readily available right now.
Seanchai
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;320870When asked what the biggest change in the new edition was they answered that they were surprised to learn that for many many gamers Shadowrun First Edition was the first RPG.
Very interesting. Thank you for that!
I wonder how they found Shadowrun and why they bought it. Why when flipping through that book were they drawn in versus others?
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;320876These are activity books -- a collection of one-page puzzles and activities printed on ultra-cheap paper.
Wasn't some publisher talking about doing a RPG aimed at 99 cent stores?
Was it Hinterwelt?
Quote from: RPGPundit;320952Its decidedly and markedly that the "Basic D&D" sets of the 90s were meant to be crappy crippleware that only existed to sell you the AD&D books, and then when that failed, everyone was shocked,
I am still astounded that neither TSR nor WotC has put out a decent Intro D&D. Its not rocket science. 4e Intro should have had 4 races / 4 classes / 4 levels in a big box with minis and monsters and dungeon tiles and pre-made adventures. Instead, they sold shit on a shingle.
Quote from: Spinachcat;321129I wonder how they found Shadowrun and why they bought it. Why when flipping through that book were they drawn in versus others?
I guess they didn't stumble upon it. I guess it was more like the old fashioned word of mouth / peer pressure thing, the same thing that got D&D started. (And it worked like that for Vampire, as well. And Magic The Gathering. And Pokemon.)
It just needs one person to discover it, either by accident or because the person is already a gamer with contacts to other circles.
What I found interesting was that Shadowrun apparently hit a key -- that the mix of cyberpunk and orks was more enticing
to some would-be gamers than plain vanilla fantasy.
On a side note: That's why I found it so stupid to model Earthdawn after AD&D, and to rationalize all those AD&Disms in a similar-yet-completely-different system. They didn't need win over D&D players to try their fantasy game, they had already tied it to the SR background and thus their own "home grown" playership. They should have stuck with their house system.
Badly...
-clash
I'd release a player guide that borrowed terminology and perhaps a name from your typical computer game. The actual concepts don't have to match, but using the terminology of CRPGs would be a huge win. You'll get a lot of cranky grognards whining about how your game is just like WoW, but so what?
If I was really smart, I'd find a popular webcomic artist who started playing my game recently and posts about his sessions a lot, and I'd have him do the cover.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320726Yes, its true, in a slightly different way than the others. The others created gamers. V:tM created White Wolf players, ...
This can also be applied in a way to D&D - There's a ton of people who only play D&D, and will touch no other games. There is a reason people who don't play D&D have a hard time forming a group sometimes.
That being said, D&D has brought so many players to the table, that a small industry exists catering to those who are looking for something more.
Quote from: Seanchai;321123Except they didn't. We've been over this and I typed up a list once. In fact, there's an entry-level D&D product readily available right now.
Crippleware does not an entry level product make. And even if it wasn’t crippleware, if it’s not marketed right it won’t go anywhere anyway.
And that’s the problem – there may be more than one RPG out there that would make a good intro RPG – but without a big marketing push it will go nowhere.
The only RPG company with the potential to make that push is WOTC. But they have remained singularly uninterested in doing so.
We don't know if it will work, because no one has tried it since TSR binned the basic sets back in the day.
.
Quote from: jadrax;320953There are around a hundred members of the role-play society at my Uni, if you assume 1/3rd of them are mature students like me, that still leaves 66 18 year olds that have found the way to the hobby. It is hardly a fucking geriatric only pastime.
You have to remember that Pundit *IS* the hobby.
When he quit playing in the late 90's, the hobby was at its absolute low point and was in a state of utter desolation.
His pick for the Ennies, Starblazers, is objectively the best game. Anyone who voted for anything else, is an idiot.
So of course, since he is getting older, the entire hobby must be aging along with him.
Objective fact.
You know, what I find amusing about all these threads like this, is that beyond the usual level of staggering condescension, you're all basically subconciously buying right into the bogus cultural notion that "games are for kids" by focusing all your efforts on trying to indoctrinate the wee spratlings into your secret little club.
Games aren't just for kids anymore. It is not the 1950s. The 20s and 30s demographics are the most lucrative out there, because the target group tends to spend the most on games. That's not to say one should solely target them and only them, that was the failing of the 360 and the PS3 this generation, but it is to say that focusing solely on kids' parents pocketbooks isn't the only lucrative market segment to go after. On average, the adult demographic spends a hell of a lot more money, because they don't have to beg their parents or steal mommy's purse to pay for it anymore. The video game market, evven the Wii, has since figured out that the big money is, surprise, in the people who're old enough to have it, so why the hell are we still focused on an outmoded vision of the toy market as our target?
And I think you'll find that if kids value anything, it's appearing to be grownup, and the best way to get them interested is making a grownup game, and then they'll sneak into it anyway. That old CS Lewis quote works just as well in reverse.
D&D wasn't made for kids. Vampire wasn't made for kids. Warhammer wasn't originally made for kids (and now that they are making it for kids, they're in almost constant financial problems). The kids played them anyway though, because they had all kinds of cool grownup violence and death and subculture that was cool at the time.
And besides, who the fuck really wants to have to game with a bunch of fucking preteens? I sure as shit don't, and there's something more than a little creepy about a bunch of fatbears who apparently do and spend their time talking about all manner of nefarious and sneaky ways to try and lure them into the lair.
Let's see, promoting it:
1) Demo program in the malls.
2) get it in Waldenbooks, B&N, Borders, B. Dalton and on Amazon
3) send a free copy to a bunch of high schools' libraries.
4) send a free copy to several public libraries in key cities. (If it has 4+ of: NHL team, NFL Team, NBA Team, MLB team, WNBA Team, US Military Base; for the Commonwealth: Rugby Union team, Rugby League Team, Professional Cricket Team, professional ARF team, Commonwealth Military Base, US Military Base.)
J Arcane, I'm not so sure it's just a "games are for kids" issue as much as a "most people shop for games at the toy store" issue. It's a bit like selling automotive parts at the grocery store.
Most people don't see a comic shop or book store and think "Hey, I can buy games there!" Nor do book stores understand the type of support roleplaying games need to succeed as a product.
Actually that gives me an interesting large budget notion. Look at the thicker catelogues and fliers that come in the mail. Now what about a massive bulk mailing of a complete 60 page introductory rpg that only uses six sided dice? It could contain a list of stores that carry the support products and everything.
Taking census of my main two places of residence, 4 of the 6 FLGSs were dedicated game stores that sold not just RPGs, but a variety of board games and card games and miniatures games.
But regardless, those comic book stores are selling RPGs for precisely the reason I listed: Demographics. They sell RPGs because the demographic crossover between comic books and RPGs is large, and because they are these days largely dominated by that very same adult demographic. Comics haven't been "for kids" for as long as RPGs. You people want to talk about reaching out to the right people, but that's exactly what those damn stores you decry are doing.
It's not selling "automotive parts in a grocery store", it's selling motorcycle parts in a car parts store.
Quote from: Jaeger;321180Crippleware does not an entry level product make.
Actually, yeah, it does. It's only crazy red box devotees who believe introductory products should be endlessly usable.
Quote from: Jaeger;321180And even if it wasn't crippleware, if it's not marketed right it won't go anywhere anyway.
Ah, marketing as magic.
Quote from: Jaeger;321180The only RPG company with the potential to make that push is WOTC. But they have remained singularly uninterested in doing so.
Except, again, they have.
Seanchai
I suppose the notion that, you know, there just isn't a mass-market among 14-year-olds for pen and paper RPGs is just too horrible for some geeks to admit. Or their simply too immature to recognize why their favourite passtime as a teenager is no longer appealing to today's teenagers.
Just try walking into the office of any responsible business with deep enough pockets to pay for the kinds of marketing approaches being suggested here. Just try telling them that there's a huge, untapped market for pen and paper roleplaying games just waiting to fork out money hand over fist.
And when Mr. Moneybags asks for your proof - asks you to substantiate your claims with some real market data - you'll tell him there are a couple dozens guys on RPG forums who desperately want to see a revival the mass-market D&D era of the early 80s. So hand over the millions, Mr. Moneybags.
And that's where he tells you get the fuck out of his office and stop wasting his time.
Reread the title it says "Entry Level" why the fuck would you try to market it to existing gamers, and face the facts if someone hasn't started gaming by their early 20's its very unlikely that will ever start at least from a mass market POV.
Quote from: RockViper;321397Reread the title it says "Entry Level" why the fuck would you try to market it to existing gamers, and face the facts if someone hasn't started gaming by their early 20's its very unlikely that will ever start at least from a mass market POV.
New gamers don't need entry level either. Rifts wasn't entry level, TMNT wasn't entry level, Robotech wasn't entry level, neither were White Wolf's games, neither really are most of the games that have generated any significant amount of traction, with the sole exception of WEG SW1e, and basic D&D, the former of which had the most successful license in the world to back it up, while the latter really didn't start as a deliberately introductory game anyway, but rather an alternate development path from OD&D.
And this is where the condescension lies. Them kids are OBVIOUSLY not smart enough to figure out the games us hardcore men play, so we need to make that magic rules-light game that everyone will understand, and only by pandering to the lowest common denominator can we succeed. Never any thought to how the kids will react when they know that granddad gave them the kiddy version instead of the real games like he plays. Teenagers know when they're being patronized, and they don't like it anymore than adults do, probably more.
Teenagers don't need "rules-light" games, grownups too fucking lazy to bother with all the rules do.
Entry level does not necessarily mean rules light. It needs to be something that interests potential new gamers and causes them to think hey RPGs are cool. Its not necessary to produce a $50 book full of eye bleeding artwork and glossy paper or a core system that requires some one to buy 20 rulebooks a year just to keep up with the rules.
I think a perfect example of what I'm talking about are the Robotech books from Palladium they contain everything you need, are affordable and cover a genre that has a huge following. The only problem with it is the absolute failure to get it on shelves other than at some dank FLGS or web store, why isn't it sitting on the manga shelf in Books a Million?
Quote from: RockViper;321491Its not necessary to produce a $50 book full of eye bleeding artwork and glossy paper or a core system that requires some one to buy 20 rulebooks a year just to keep up with the rules.
Kids can get their hands on the cash. Check out the price of various things in 1980 and now.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)
The $10 Holmes boxed set would be $22 today.
Seanchai
Most gamers start when they are kids for the same reason that most adults with jobs, houses and wives don't play as often as they would like, time. Not just the odd hour or two you can grab the 360 controller when the wife has gone to bed but the 4 hours you need to find when 4 or 5 of you can get together and play.
So a mass market game will have to hit the 11-15 year olds. However, I agree that you don;t need to make it a kiddies game though but hitting a genre that is popular would be slick. I don't know about the Far Eastern RPG market but I know that the Chinese MMO market it huge and that everyone from school kids to Salarymen read Manga comics on the Tokyo metro, that has to be a huge potential market.
I still reckon a pnp GTA game would fly (but again I am talking about the game not the marketing).
Quote from: Seanchai;321495Kids can get their hands on the cash. Check out the price of various things in 1980 and now.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)
The $10 Holmes boxed set would be $22 today.
Seanchai
You assume that they will want to pay that much rather than spend the money on something else.
Actually, based upon current production costs, that Holes box would probably be $30, not $20...
And there IS a market for 14yo gamers... it's just not one that's been targeted since the 1980's in the US, and the early 1990's in the UK. (Corgi was still.
Lots of 14yo gamers exist. I encounter no shortage of them as a substitute teacher. Most of them find difficulties not in playing, but in interesting new players due to the difficulty of the rules and the difficulties of getting games. (There are 3 game stores in town, 2 of which are across the hall from each other... and the third is the main branch of one of those 2....)
Many of these kids are playing WW & D&D simply because it's what they can get at waldenbooks. I've been often asked where to get non-D&D non-WWG games.
Quote from: RockViper;321568You assume that they will want to pay that much rather than spend the money on something else.
These days they'll spend it on street drugs.
Quote from: J Arcane;321480And this is where the condescension lies. Them kids are OBVIOUSLY not smart enough to figure out the games us hardcore men play, so we need to make that magic rules-light game that everyone will understand, and only by pandering to the lowest common denominator can we succeed.
No, but we're talking about hitting the mass market where most people can't play Monopoly by the book and haven't bothered to read the rules.
It's true, smart kids love smart games. Chess is pretty simple compared to most rpgs but it's a damn smart game. I think the same can be said of Settlers of Catan.
Don't get me wrong I have my secret diabolical plan to sell Rolemaster Standard System in the aisles of national grocery chain by including a small packet of breakfast cereal in the box set, but when it comes to hitting the mass games market I believe a simple but sensible game can accomplish deeper market penetration.
The thing is that in order to enter the mass market one needs a game that appeals to the people who play only occasionally while slowly, insideously drawing them deeper and deeper into more complex and powerful game systems.
Quote from: ggroy;321606These days they'll spend it on street drugs.
Or a WoW subscription.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;321182You have to remember that Pundit *IS* the hobby.
When he quit playing in the late 90's, the hobby was at its absolute low point and was in a state of utter desolation.
His pick for the Ennies, Starblazers, is objectively the best game. Anyone who voted for anything else, is an idiot.
So of course, since he is getting older, the entire hobby must be aging along with him.
Objective fact.
Objective fact that the D&D generation are getting older. Not so sure about the entire hobby though.
Loads of students play rpgs in the UK - most unis have up and running clubs. Difference is that they're very short on cash and play cheap/ free games that they homebrew. They might be 'off radar' for now but they'll get jobs and careers eventually and, probably, want RPGs more like what they've played than D&D.
Quote from: Diavilo;321756Objective fact that the D&D generation are getting older. Not so sure about the entire hobby though.
Loads of students play rpgs in the UK - most unis have up and running clubs. Difference is that they're very short on cash and play cheap/ free games that they homebrew. They might be 'off radar' for now but they'll get jobs and careers eventually and, probably, want RPGs more like what they've played than D&D.
My experience: Oxford has a pretty healthy university RPG club. Official club activities tend to revolve around homebrewed LARPs and freeforms, but there's also a fair amount of tabletop action. People play D&D, but it's one of a range of games out there (Call of Cthulhu and Dark Heresy actually seem more popular, based on the number of actual campaigns I'm aware of), and people are by and large unconcerned with ideological internet wars.
Quote from: Warthur;321789My experience: Oxford has a pretty healthy university RPG club. Official club activities tend to revolve around homebrewed LARPs and freeforms, but there's also a fair amount of tabletop action. People play D&D, but it's one of a range of games out there (Call of Cthulhu and Dark Heresy actually seem more popular, based on the number of actual campaigns I'm aware of), and people are by and large unconcerned with ideological internet wars.
If the nation's brightest students are all playing Cthulhu and Dark Heresy, I can finally sleep easy at night. Safe in the knowledge that our future is secure in your well-educated hands.
:respect:
Quote from: RockViper;321568You assume that they will want to pay that much rather than spend the money on something else.
Noooo. I assume they don't want to buy a product such as the one we're talking about at all. I'm just pointing out that cost isn't a factor...
Seanchai
Quote from: ggroy;321606These days they'll spend it on street drugs.
Very true. Back in
my day all the kids were Peter Perfect. Society has certainly gone downhill since then.
This is actually something that is of interest to me, as I am in the process of launching an "entry level" game: Adventures in Oz.
One thing that hasn't been touched on much that I think is very important to the success of early RPGs is "pick-up-and-play"ability. Can you be playing the game within 5 or 10 minutes? In old school D&D, the player can be rolling up their character at the same time the DM is rolling up the dungeon, and both are ready to go in just a few minutes.
I have tried to make sure that my game has at least some of that. Character creation is very quick. I'm not sure how quick a starting GM can pick up that bit of the book, but I am using a deliberately casual writing style there to make it more approachable.
Aldo Ghiozzi of Impressions Marketing and Advertising has stated that it is next to impossible for a publisher to create new gamers. I think one of the reasons for this is that publishers focus so much on creating new gamers that they don't properly woo the existing audience. This is why I'm attempting a mixed strategy. Along with activity in the online Oz community, I am keeping my gamer roots in mind with posts on forums like these.
Actually advertising is a step for when I actually have money. Considering that I have yet to spend dollar one on marketing, I think I'm doing pretty damn good.