You know, what I find amusing about all these threads like this, is that beyond the usual level of staggering condescension, you're all basically subconciously buying right into the bogus cultural notion that "games are for kids" by focusing all your efforts on trying to indoctrinate the wee spratlings into your secret little club.

Games aren't just for kids anymore.  It is not the 1950s.  The 20s and 30s demographics are the most lucrative out there, because the target group tends to spend the most on games.  That's not to say one should solely target them and only them, that was the failing of the 360 and the PS3 this generation, but it is to say that focusing solely on kids' parents pocketbooks isn't the only lucrative market segment to go after.  On average, the adult demographic spends a hell of a lot more money, because they don't have to beg their parents or steal mommy's purse to pay for it anymore.  The video game market, evven the Wii, has since figured out that the big money is, surprise, in the people who're old enough to have it, so why the hell are we still focused on an outmoded vision of the toy market as our target?

And I think you'll find that if kids value anything, it's appearing to be grownup, and the best way to get them interested is making a grownup game, and then they'll sneak into it anyway.  That old CS Lewis quote works just as well in reverse.  

D&D wasn't made for kids.  Vampire wasn't made for kids.  Warhammer wasn't originally made for kids (and now that they are making it for kids, they're in almost constant financial problems).  The kids played them anyway though, because they had all kinds of cool grownup violence and death and subculture that was cool at the time.

And besides, who the fuck really wants to have to game with a bunch of fucking preteens?  I sure as shit don't, and there's something more than a little creepy about a bunch of fatbears who apparently do and spend their time talking about all manner of nefarious and sneaky ways to try and lure them into the lair.

Let's see, promoting it:
1) Demo program in the malls.
2) get it in Waldenbooks, B&N, Borders, B. Dalton and on Amazon
3) send a free copy to a bunch of high schools' libraries.
4) send a free copy to several public libraries in key cities. (If it has 4+ of: NHL team, NFL Team, NBA Team, MLB team, WNBA Team, US Military Base; for the Commonwealth: Rugby Union team, Rugby League Team, Professional Cricket Team, professional ARF team, Commonwealth Military Base, US Military Base.)

J Arcane, I'm not so sure it's just a "games are for kids" issue as much as a "most people shop for games at the toy store" issue.  It's a bit like selling automotive parts at the grocery store.

Most people don't see a comic shop or book store and think "Hey, I can buy games there!"  Nor do book stores understand the type of support roleplaying games need to succeed as a product.

Actually that gives me an interesting large budget notion.  Look at the thicker catelogues and fliers that come in the mail.  Now what about a massive bulk mailing of a complete 60 page introductory rpg that only uses six sided dice?  It could contain a list of stores that carry the support products and everything.

Taking census of my main two places of residence, 4 of the 6 FLGSs were dedicated game stores that sold not just RPGs, but a variety of board games and card games and miniatures games.  

But regardless, those comic book stores are selling RPGs for precisely the reason I listed:  Demographics.  They sell RPGs because the demographic crossover between comic books and RPGs is large, and because they are these days largely dominated by that very same adult demographic.  Comics haven't been "for kids" for as long as RPGs.  You people want to talk about reaching out to the right people, but that's exactly what those damn stores you decry are doing.

It's not selling "automotive parts in a grocery store", it's selling motorcycle parts in a car parts store.

Quote from: Jaeger;321180Crippleware does not an entry level product make.

Actually, yeah, it does. It's only crazy red box devotees who believe introductory products should be endlessly usable.

Quote from: Jaeger;321180And even if it wasn't crippleware, if it's not marketed right it won't go anywhere anyway.

Ah, marketing as magic.

Quote from: Jaeger;321180The only RPG company with the potential to make that push is WOTC. But they have remained singularly uninterested in doing so.

Except, again, they have.

Seanchai

I suppose the notion that, you know, there just isn't a mass-market among 14-year-olds for pen and paper RPGs is just too horrible for some geeks to admit. Or their simply too immature to recognize why their favourite passtime as a teenager is no longer appealing to today's teenagers.

Just try walking into the office of any responsible business with deep enough pockets to pay for the kinds of marketing approaches being suggested here. Just try telling them that there's a huge, untapped market for pen and paper roleplaying games just waiting to fork out money hand over fist.

And when Mr. Moneybags asks for your proof - asks you to substantiate your claims with some real market data - you'll tell him there are a couple dozens guys on RPG forums who desperately want to see a revival the mass-market D&D era of the early 80s. So hand over the millions, Mr. Moneybags.

And that's where he tells you get the fuck out of his office and stop wasting his time.

Reread the title it says "Entry Level"  why the fuck would you try to market it to existing gamers, and face the facts if someone hasn't started gaming by their early 20's its very unlikely that will ever start at least from a mass market POV.

Quote from: RockViper;321397Reread the title it says "Entry Level"  why the fuck would you try to market it to existing gamers, and face the facts if someone hasn't started gaming by their early 20's its very unlikely that will ever start at least from a mass market POV.

New gamers don't need entry level either.  Rifts wasn't entry level, TMNT wasn't entry level, Robotech wasn't entry level, neither were White Wolf's games, neither really are most of the games that have generated any significant amount of traction, with the sole exception of WEG SW1e, and basic D&D, the former of which had the most successful license in the world to back it up, while the latter really didn't start as a deliberately introductory game anyway, but rather an alternate development path from OD&D.

And this is where the condescension lies.  Them kids are OBVIOUSLY not smart enough to figure out the games us hardcore men play, so we need to make that magic rules-light game that everyone will understand, and only by pandering to the lowest common denominator can we succeed.  Never any thought to how the kids will react when they know that granddad gave them the kiddy version instead of the real games like he plays.  Teenagers know when they're being patronized, and they don't like it anymore than adults do, probably more.

Teenagers don't need "rules-light" games, grownups too fucking lazy to bother with all the rules do.

Entry level does not necessarily mean rules light. It needs to  be something that interests potential new gamers and causes them to think hey RPGs are cool. Its not necessary to produce a $50 book full of eye bleeding artwork and glossy paper or a core system that requires some one to buy 20 rulebooks a year just to keep up with the rules.

I think a perfect example of what I'm talking about are the Robotech books from Palladium they contain everything you need, are affordable and cover a genre that has a huge following. The only problem with it is the absolute failure to get it on shelves other than at some dank FLGS or web store, why isn't it sitting on the manga shelf in Books a Million?

Quote from: RockViper;321491Its not necessary to produce a $50 book full of eye bleeding artwork and glossy paper or a core system that requires some one to buy 20 rulebooks a year just to keep up with the rules.

Kids can get their hands on the cash. Check out the price of various things in 1980 and now.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

The $10 Holmes boxed set would be $22 today.

Seanchai

Most gamers start when they are kids for the same reason that most adults with jobs, houses and wives don't play as often as they would like, time. Not just the odd hour or two you can grab the 360 controller when the wife has gone to bed but the 4 hours you need to find when 4 or 5 of you can get together and play.
So a mass market game will have to hit the 11-15 year olds. However, I agree that you don;t need to make it a kiddies game though but hitting a genre that is popular would be slick. I don't know about the Far Eastern RPG market but I know that the Chinese MMO market it huge and that everyone from school kids to Salarymen read Manga comics on the Tokyo metro, that has to be a huge potential market.
I still reckon a pnp GTA game would fly (but again I am talking about the game not the marketing).

Quote from: Seanchai;321495Kids can get their hands on the cash. Check out the price of various things in 1980 and now.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

The $10 Holmes boxed set would be $22 today.

Seanchai

You assume that they will want to pay that much rather than spend the money on something else.

Actually, based upon current production costs, that Holes box would probably be $30, not $20...

And there IS a market for 14yo gamers... it's just not one that's been targeted since the 1980's in the US, and the early 1990's in the UK. (Corgi was still.

Lots of 14yo gamers exist. I encounter no shortage of them as a substitute teacher. Most of them find difficulties not in playing, but in interesting new players due to the difficulty of the rules and the difficulties of getting games. (There are 3 game stores in town, 2 of which are across the hall from each other... and the third is the main branch of one of those 2....)

Many of these kids are playing WW & D&D simply because it's what they can get at waldenbooks. I've been often asked where to get non-D&D non-WWG games.

Quote from: RockViper;321568You assume that they will want to pay that much rather than spend the money on something else.

These days they'll spend it on street drugs.

Quote from: J Arcane;321480And this is where the condescension lies.  Them kids are OBVIOUSLY not smart enough to figure out the games us hardcore men play, so we need to make that magic rules-light game that everyone will understand, and only by pandering to the lowest common denominator can we succeed.

No, but we're talking about hitting the mass market where most people can't play Monopoly by the book and haven't bothered to read the rules.

It's true, smart kids love smart games.  Chess is pretty simple compared to most rpgs but it's a damn smart game.  I think the same can be said of Settlers of Catan.

Don't get me wrong I have my secret diabolical plan to sell Rolemaster Standard System in the aisles of national grocery chain by including a small packet of breakfast cereal in the box set, but when it comes to hitting the mass games market I believe a simple but sensible game can accomplish deeper market penetration.

The thing is that in order to enter the mass market one needs a game that appeals to the people who play only occasionally while slowly, insideously drawing them deeper and deeper into more complex and powerful game systems.