This is the real question to be asking.

We all KNOW exactly what a successful entry-level RPG looks like: D&D basic. Fighting Fantasy. TMNT. Robotech. RIFTS.

I don't give a fuck whether you like those games or not, they're the ones with the style that has worked to bring in new gamers, and nothing else has.

So let's fucking MOVE ON to the next question: because you could you have the best entry-level RPG in the universe, and its going to be worth fuck all if you can only sell it through Lulu to people on internet forums, or even if you can only get it sold in FLGSes.

How would you get over that, which is the REAL barrier (not "figuring out what game to make", EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOWS the answer to that).

RPGPundit

• Massive advertising on Cartoon Network, G4 and other "Youth" outlet.
• Distribution via big distributors (Toys R Us, B&N etc).
• Heavy internet marketing arm. Applications that sell the game in the minds of kids.
• Find a way to involve other technological outlets such as iPods, Cell Phones and such.

That'd be grosso modo the modus operandi to revive the 1980's marketing strategy adapted to the specificities of the moment we're in right now.

I'm not sure that would work though.

The question that comes to my mind is "Do the kids have to be the targets of the marketing here?" After all, wouldn't older targets be more succeptible to like the specificities of tabletop gaming?

With my existing budget?  On-line ads on major sites, personally to nearby stores, and eventually at local cons.

With the budget of a low to mid tier game company?  At Gencon and Origins, in related magazines and comics, on line, and ideally with a FaceBook game.

With WOTC's budget but not Hasbro's apparent resistance to seeing D&D on the toy store shelves?  Well, obviously I'd want the game on the shelves of the toy stores.  However I'd notch the miniatures up to 1/32 and make them modular kits.  Flesh coloured hands and heads, brown boots and spear shafts, that kind of thing.  I might even go to a full action figure creation kit.

I am firmly of the belief that a quality product will out if produced with consistant support and respect for the customer.  So if you want the single aspect I'd focus on that would be my target, consistant support (no new edition, thanks) and respect for the customer (so no new edition, thanks).  I'll add to this my belief that if Palladium had cleaned up their system when Rifts came out they'd have been able to take and keep the number one spot when TSR went down.  However, I don't think they'd have been able to compete with the Magic the Gathering / Pokemon cash WotC brought into the buyout.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320643This is the real question to be asking.

We all KNOW exactly what a successful entry-level RPG looks like: D&D basic. Fighting Fantasy. TMNT. Robotech. RIFTS.

I don't give a fuck whether you like those games or not, they're the ones with the style that has worked to bring in new gamers, and nothing else has.

Umm... you left WW Vampire off of the list. It did bring in new gamers.

Benoist has most of the areas covered that you wold need to hit.

But you don't need to kidify the advertising... Make the game simple enough so that 10-12 year olds can understand and play it. But you don't want it to be percieved as a 'child's game' that they will grow out of.


.

According to

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814

there will be a D&D version of Heroscape released in Feb 2010, as well as a Ravenloft board game in Aug 2010.

It will be interesting to see if they catch on with kids and other non-rpg people.

Assuming a good economy then I think Benoist is probably dead on in his assessment. You have to get the game to the intended market audience and that means advertising where the intended audience will see it, and put it somewhere they can actually pick it up and buy it (sorry FLGS). It also needs to have a heavy online presence in all of the social media areas as well as its own site that offers free access to dice rollers and virtual tabletops (It looks like someone with a little web programming skills could get Google wave to do this). It might even be beneficial to have a second life type online interface to pull in the WoW fan base.

Quote from: Benoist;320646

• Massive advertising on Cartoon Network, G4 and other "Youth" outlet.
• Distribution via big distributors (Toys R Us, B&N etc).
• Heavy internet marketing arm. Applications that sell the game in the minds of kids.
• Find a way to involve other technological outlets such as iPods, Cell Phones and such.

That'd be grosso modo the modus operandi to revive the 1980's marketing strategy adapted to the specificities of the moment we're in right now.

I'm not sure that would work though.

The question that comes to my mind is "Do the kids have to be the targets of the marketing here?" After all, wouldn't older targets be more succeptible to like the specificities of tabletop gaming?

All,
  I think that the common thread is twofold:
1) Existing gamers were excited about those games.
2) Potential new gamers could easily grasp the setting (I think it is unwise to assume new gamers have to have dumbed-down versions of the games we love, but I do not think it's a good idea to start new gamers on intricate, surreal settings like Talislanta either).
  So, based on that, you need a two-pronged strategy.
1) You need to create buzz among existing gamers. Ideally, you will find a forum, blog and/or reviewer that mostly gets gamers of the same type the game is designed for. But, whatever it is, the budget needs to be light, because you are doing a two pronged attack.
2) Real advertising targeted at fans of the genre the game's setting is set in. So, if I were to hop in a time machine and not release Vampire until today, I would blitz Hot Topic and forget book stores or toy stores. Or, if I were releasing a fantasy game, maybe only hit toy stores and forget book stores. The idea is it has to be found in a place where a non-gamer who is a fan of that genre might be looking. And there has to be a way to create buzz for that too. So, like if it were a fantasy game, you would want to put banner ads on Harry Potter web sites or air TV ads when Legend of the Seeker is playing. That sort of thing.

  Anyways, that is just my two cents.

  Personally, I wonder if this sort of game is even possible any more. Any people that are real genre fans or nerd-types know about RPGs, its just a matter of making an RPG that appeals to their obsession. I mean how many copies of Buffy or Bubblegum Crisis have sold, versus how many people actually play the game. If you made a game that was set in a popular genre/license, and it was a good game that was fun to play, it would be an instant success. But I don't think it has to be a "basic set" anymore...

Quote from: Jaeger;320667Umm... you left WW Vampire off of the list. It did bring in new gamers.

Yes, its true, in a slightly different way than the others. The others created gamers. V:tM created White Wolf players, and some other companies started to make their games more like WW's games.

But NO ONE can question the genius of their marketing. Their game wasn't even an introductory game! But they just went and made a very intelligent effort at promoting the game specifically among a particular sub-culture that would find that particular game (and no other) appealing to them, and got tons of people playing that RPG who had never played RPGs before, never would have thought of playing RPGs before, and many who never played any other RPGs after.

RPGPundit

Hire a successful marketing firm to sell my product.

Quote from: Benoist;320646

• Distribution via big distributors (Toys R Us, B&N etc).

I think this is key, if it is not for sale in Mainstream Stores, then it will not find many new players.

Yup, advertising. Back in the day it was hard for me not to run into ads for D&D. They were all over the place. Comics, TV, magazines, fantasy novels (TSR books anyway).

Of course the real question is how to get the game into Time, Newsweek and Today's Parent.  Not necessarily in a bad way either.  Personally I'd rather not have a string of murders associated with my product, though I'd take the resulting sales if it came of course.

Warhammer got a glowing spot in Today's Parent as free babysitting once.

Anyhow, some thoughts on the success of the big entry points.

Basic D&D was the right thing at just the right time.  Tolkien, chess and computer geeks, seventies heavy metal, satanism, it was a perfect storm.  But let's face it, there was nothing else out there to scratch the itch.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles And Other Strangeness was another freekish occurance.  An obscure comic became a cult classic and got liscenced for an rpg when suddenly it was picked up by a major toy company and got a cartoon.  Also, ninjas were a liscence to print money in the mid eighties.  Good luck duplicating the conditions.

StarWars, the biggest liscence of all time, high production values, and a gaming market that had been dying for a StarWars game for years.

Vampire, like Basic D&D White Wolf managed to tap a growing subcultural movement driven in large part by a cult classic series of books and picked up steam when it was blamed for murders.  Well it did.

Okay, so here's a thought: any liscence that's big enough to make a huge impact is too expensive.  On the other hand two of the games on the list are no name knockoffs of the big liscence with their own unique spin and one was a tiny liscence that exploded randomly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320726Yes, its true, in a slightly different way than the others. The others created gamers. V:tM created White Wolf players, and some other companies started to make their games more like WW's games.

But NO ONE can question the genius of their marketing. Their game wasn't even an introductory game!

That reminds me of a Gen Con seminar that FASA held to promote their new Shadowrun Second Edition. When asked what the biggest change in the new edition was they answered that they were surprised to learn that for many many  gamers Shadowrun First Edition was the first RPG.
They never thought of it as an entry level game, in fact they didn't think of the possibility that newbies could even find that game.

These are activity books -- a collection of one-page puzzles and activities printed on ultra-cheap paper.
 

 
 
As far as I can tell, they only make one kind of activity book -- the kind filled with girly activities. They brand some with Transformers and TMNT or whatever, but the activities themselves the sort of tedium that boys don't enjoy and as a result the few boy ABs stocked at my local supermarkets are laughably out of date, further compounding the problem.
 
Solution: Disguise the intro RPG as education disguised as an activity book. The parents will buy it to educate (and sedate) their boys. The boys will play it because RPGs are fun. Even if it's a flop, your RPG won't have it's covers ripped of and sent back for a refund because it will sit on the supermarket shelves between the glue and the romance novels for all time.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;320876Solution: Disguise the intro RPG as education disguised as an activity book. The parents will buy it to educate (and sedate) their boys. The boys will play it because RPGs are fun. Even if it's a flop, your RPG won't have it's covers ripped of and sent back for a refund because it will sit on the supermarket shelves between the glue and the romance novels for all time.

TSR tried this in 1990 with their Comic Modules 13 Assassin, Buck Rogers, Intruder, Warhawks, and R.I.P. which, interestingly enough, covered a whole range of different genres and were not tied to the D&D brand. They were written and drawn by comic book luminaries of that time, Mike W. Barr, Alfredo Alcala, Roy "Conan the Barbarian" Thomas...

http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?pubID=11481&minyr=1990&maxyr=1995&SetSort=alpha