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How would you make robot player characters fair?

Started by Shipyard Locked, May 18, 2014, 07:07:05 PM

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Catelf

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;750145In a space opera setting, how would you design robots that are available to player characters yet still feel like robots?

To me it feels like a contrived cop-out if a robot doesn't have most or all of these advantages, but I can be persuaded that my ideas are wrong:
- Superior strength
- Superior intellectual processing speed
- 100% recall and photo-video-audio recording capabilities.
- Ability to be upgraded or re-fitted
- Can lie flawlessly
I disagree with those included above:
* Strength - As you say, it is Space Opera, it is not a Mecha Anime. The most known robot characters in space opera is R2-D2 and C3PO, and neither of those has exhibited any form of "Superior Strength".
* Intellectual processing speed - Read Only Memory: essentially, if the knowledge and programs isn't in its memory, ... it cannot be processed.
* Recall - You propose it stores EVERYTHING it sees and hears?
Interesting idea, but it also takes up a huge amount of processing and storage.
* Upgrades - weapon upgrades are one thing, software is different, and depending on setting, it may be near impossible to find the right kind of software.
Replacing Hardware may compromise the abilities of the body and/or the Memory.
* Lie flawlessly? - Read only Memory: Again, if the knowledge and programming isn't there, it isn't possible.
To understand WHEN a lie may work, is a function of social skill, and even the idea of stating something incorrect is, from machinery pov, being inefficient.

One advantage you did forget, though, was Natural Armor.
It might not be very high, admittedly, but it may protect against simple bruising.
I may not dislike D&D any longer, but I still dislike the Chaos-Lawful/Evil-Good alignment system, as well as the level system.
;)
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mcbobbo

Some disadvantages not yet listed that would apply to a super strong, super intelligent killer robot:

Hated by everyone who didn't own it.
Feared by even its owner.
Probably illegal in most jurisdictions (WEG Star Wars has this limitation.)
Susceptible to hacking and/or remote control, and a desirable target for that.
Memory can be deleted, even forcibly or wirelessly.
New models coming out all the time necessitating crap parts that easily die (e.g. modern PCs)

I like the remote hack, remote control (e.g. kill the President), then wipe the memory scenario myself.  Seems like few players would tolerate that character for long.
"It is the mark of an [intelligent] mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Omega

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;750145In a space opera setting, how would you design robots that are available to player characters yet still feel like robots?

To me it feels like a contrived cop-out if a robot doesn't have most or all of these advantages, but I can be persuaded that my ideas are wrong:
- Superior strength
- Superior intellectual processing speed
- 100% recall and photo-video-audio recording capabilities.
- Immunity to pain
- Immunity to psychology and emotions
- Immunity to physiological issues (disease, poison, starvation, suffocation, exhaustion)
- Immunity to telepathy
- Ability to be upgraded or re-fitted
- Can lie flawlessly

That's quite a list of assets for a player. The usual disadvantages I've seen are:
- Cannot harm sentient creatures or let them come to harm (Laws of Robotics, getting kind of corny and don't make sense in many settings)
- Must obey certain creatures.
- Have terrible social skills (except for lying).
- Vulnerable to hacking.
- Super vulnerable to EMP and similar "kills tech" effects.
- Energy hogs.
- Can't heal naturally, must be repaired rather than medically treated.

I'm not sure if some configuration of the above is really enough to make such a character option work. Ideas?

A robot might not be super strong or smart. Those are dependant on the manufacture and materials used, and the coding. A robot might only be as strong as and smart as a human. A flying robot might be particularly weak due to lightweight frame.

Immunity to pain: Depends on how tactile advanced the robot is. More tactile sensors means it can potentially suffer via them. Damage may produce feedback and overload that is equivalent t pain or trauma. But one advantage a robot might have is the ability to shut off sensory input from a distressed area. More primitive robots of course might not have much in the way of tactile senses.

Psychology and emotions is another that is dependant on the level of the robot.

Telepathy they might be immune to. But they might be very vulnerable to telemechanics and instrumentality powers that dont work on humans but do allow the user to interface with and control machines.

Energy limits is an iffy one. On one hand you have the Robot in Lost in Space, and on the other you have robots that seem to just keep going and going and going. And in between are ones that need to "eat" regularly.

Upgrades is another iffy one. Dependant on how modular the robot is. Some never change at all. Or cannot. Which can be a plot hook all on its own if you have to go looking for the specific part replacement the robot needs since you cannot just swap in any old piece.

A robot would likely be immune to pressure and vacuum.

A robot might be able to swap in new skills as needed. But might have a memory limit.

A robot might be near invisible to IR scans. Or it might light up if its using alot of wattage to power.

All the disadvantages seem good, though of course dependant on the robots tech.

Some more potential disadvantages along with the vulnerability to telemechanics control and specific parts needed.

Vulnerability to energy drain.
Vulnerability to electrical or water exposure.
Vulnerabulity to sensory attacks. Especially optics.
Possibly weaker senses that a human, depending on the tech and function. But. More sophisticated senses may mean more ways the robot can be attacked.
An "off" switch. Just in case.
Terrain limits could be a problem depending on the locomotion system.
Reaction speed might be a problem. Or might be an advantage.
Achilles Heel type vulnerable locations.
MAGNETS!!!

flyingmice

In StarCluster 3

Any robot that is playable as a character is sapient. Any sapient is subject to messy thinking and approximation. It's those cracks and shadows that allow sapience. Any sapient being is also, therefore, subject to neuroses and psychoses, the nature of which vary from sapient type to sapient type. Robots do not have the same *kinds* of mental problems meat puppets have.

Robots are skill limited.

Robots can be physically better than humans, but for the most part they aren't. Why go to the added expense?

All robots cost money. Non-sapient robots can be slaves, but most societies frown on sapient slavery. No one is going to build robots just to set them free, so in those societies without sapient slavery, sapient robots have to work off their cost in service. The more expensive they are, the longer the service.

No one in their right minds would put a sapient robot brain into a missile...

-clash
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Scott Anderson

Your robots are boring. They're like every other robot in the last 40 years.  No, they won't be balanced character-for-character.

If you use XP tables for advancement, then give them an outrageous amount of XP for the next level.

But seriously... Boring.  You're designing a very specific robot, not a robot character class or race. Give your players the option to use some or all of these advantages in smaller segments. Don't force them to play Data.
With no fanfare, the stone giant turned to his son and said, "That\'s why you never build a castle in a swamp."

J Arcane

Remember, the market test of a robot it's whether it is more cost effective than a human laborer at the same job.

Nobody is just going to start building robots for no reason other than they can, not in any great number anyway.

Yes there will be prototypes that are superhuman walking internets, but the bulk of the labor force it's going to be the manufacturing, labor, and consumer models.

There's honestly a lot to be said for the Star Wars and Futurama robots here.
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Shipyard Locked

Quote from: J ArcaneHave you seen reality?

Point me to one technological apparatus that actually achieves more than one or two of what you describe, without also being prohibitively expensive or rare?


Quote from: Scott Anderson;750326Your robots are boring. They're like every other robot in the last 40 years.

All I did was rattle off a list of standard expectations players are likely to have of robots, based on widespread media conventions. I'm of the school of thought that you want to rely a lot on tropes and familiarity in a tabletop RPG because it speeds up play and helps players navigate an already complicated hobby. Originality is nice and important in carefully applied bursts, but true originality is for novels, not games.

dragoner

IMO, 'bots are not going to be necessarily stronger than humans, just maybe on the strong side of normal. They will have faster reflexes, as their nervous system will work quicker. While maybe their abilities will be naturally better, skill wise they will be lower, not only that, they will have limited experience (and often be very young). Aging will take a major toll without re-manufacturing. They will be viewed as slaves or disposable people by large segments of the population, and thus will have very low social standing/charisma.
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J Arcane

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;750329All I did was rattle off a list of standard expectations players are likely to have of robots, based on widespread media conventions. I'm of the school of thought that you want to rely a lot on tropes and familiarity in a tabletop RPG because it speeds up play and helps players navigate an already complicated hobby. Originality is nice and important in carefully applied bursts, but true originality is for novels, not games.

Star Wars robots are purpose built contraptions that frequently lack even full humanoid mobility, and are prone to erratic behavior without regular memory wipes. They're basically like Windows machines built for a very narrow range of tasks, outside of which they are repeatedly demonstrated to be useless.

Futurama robots are cheaply built, again often eschew full humanoid mobility, are often limited in function, and so prone to erratic behavior there are entire criminal justice and mental health apparatuses for dealing with them.

I'm not talking about originality here, I'm just talking about relying on wider assumptions than seeing too many Data episodes of NextGen.
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Shipyard Locked

Quote from: J Arcane;750343I'm not talking about originality here, I'm just talking about relying on wider assumptions than seeing too many Data episodes of NextGen.

Good points.

Scott Anderson

When I play superheroes, I like to bend the tropes a little. My last superhero was a ball of light. No powers per se, just floated around and lit things up. Before that I played a superhero who was always six inches tall with proportionally-reduced strength and speed. No shrinking, just small.

I think my next superhero character will be one of those welding robots from automobile factories. Now THAT is a robot!
With no fanfare, the stone giant turned to his son and said, "That\'s why you never build a castle in a swamp."

Omega

Quote from: Scott Anderson;750326Your robots are boring. They're like every other robot in the last 40 years.  No, they won't be balanced character-for-character.

If you use XP tables for advancement, then give them an outrageous amount of XP for the next level.

But seriously... Boring.  You're designing a very specific robot, not a robot character class or race. Give your players the option to use some or all of these advantages in smaller segments. Don't force them to play Data.

That was my reaction to Doove's Chakats.
Immune to disease, resistant to radiation, can function briefly in vacuum, enhanced senses, stronger, smarter, faster, better reflexes and endurance, possible psionics, hermaproditic AND can breed with other species AND override and breed true with said species. etc ad nausium. Just add a big letter S on the chest.

A race/object that is engineered to do everything better might be a logical step. But it is either boring as all hell, or a pain in the ass to GM challenges for, or is levelling reeeeealy slowly.

Back on topic.

Pulp robots were of two types.
PC types: which tended to be essentially humans. Occasionally a toolkit box type.
And NPC/Enemy types: which tended to be all the things listed in the OP half the time. And might or might not look human.

Emperor Norton

Quote from: jeff37923;750180Make all robot characters highly susceptable to advertising malware.

You just start talking like a Junkion, all late night infomercial style.

Omega

Quote from: Emperor Norton;750557You just start talking like a Junkion, all late night infomercial style.

d20 Gamma World had... Hoards of free roaming advertising bots that swarm the PCs trying to get their attention to show ads for products likely not being produced in a long time.

jibbajibba

Extending Robots to their logical conclusions you could go all the way to Sam Slade RobHunter.  - http://www.comicvine.com/sam-slade/4005-53109/

Robo cigars, robo boots etc etc

(Scott - I played a sword once in a D&D campaign. My PC died I could see no way for him to come back until we escaped the location so the DM offered me to play an intelligent blade the owner of which the party had just killed. Was pretty good fun for a few sessions :) )
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