There's all kinds of people in the industry bemoaning the death of the "friendly local gaming store" (even though many, if not most of these, were far from friendly).
I have already said it before: Let the fuckers die. Most of the times, if they are "dying" its because they deserve to. Its because they gouge their customers with price-hikes, provide godawful service because they're a bunch of amateurs or they've hired shitheads for employees, and create an utterly horrific public image for gamers by allowing themselves to become a haven for all the local community Lawncrappers.
The Gaming Stores that aren't like this are the ones that are actually surviving and doing well.
And of course these days, there is virtually no function that the Game Store provides that cannot be provided elsewhere, and usually better. You can buy most of the games that people actually want to play at the major chain bookstores. You can buy the rest of the RPGs online.
The only aspect that LGS have that has not yet been reproduced elsewhere is the aspect of LGS as a local gamer focus point for networking. And frankly, LGS suck ass for that. Its just that often, the LGS is the ONLY place you can find other gamers, connect to play campaigns, etc.
So my question is: what alternatives are there to this one issue? How do we figure out a better way to network local gamers, so that we can finally let the LGS die and not overly lament its passing?
RPGPundit
I used to ascribe to the "three tier system" that GAMA promotes left-right-and-sideways (a phrase that always bothered me, aren't "left" and "right" already "sideways?" ...but I digress...).
The tier system is a last-ditch effort to cling to a failed economic model that placed an incredible burden on the producers and developers of RPGs and spread the wealth of the industry to a select few. And, no, I'm not talking about Hasbro.
Distributors make a cushy 10% in a volume based business on this plan. You do realize that Wal-Mart would kill for a guaranteed 10% margin, don't you? It's why they sell little rinky-dink items for 120%, to make up for all items they flat give away (like toothpaste and bleach) or make a pittance on (like diapers and DVDs). Distributors fill in those same niches with dice, mats, trinkets, etc. for a higher margin (as do the stores).
Stores are guaranteed a 50% margin on the books they purchase. ("Guarantee" may be too strong a term, but they get a 50% price cut, which means a base of a 100% markup.) This is supposed to give them the means to "experiment" with indie product, but this has failed miserably and most sores ...er... "stores" seldom wander beyond the realm of "guaranteed sell" items.
Who is "taking it in the ass" to support these organizations that are often run with all the precision of a steam-powered rock crusher? The publishers.
Small press get 40% of their cover price, gross. After paying for a 2000 copy print run, paying artists, writers, layout people, editors, etc. the cost for the average 2000 run, 250 page book is $15 - $20 (bear in mind, this means paying the artists get a fraction of what they can get in other industries and writers earning, on average, about $.03 a word). That same book will then sell to the distributor for $20 - $25.
Yep. $5 a book. At best. 2000 books. That's a gross profit of maybe $10,000 in a year, for a fully successful book.
(And I didn't figure any marketing costs into those numbers.)
I love the internet and what it has done for small publishers. PDFs (no printing costs) sold on the internet (no distributor cut, no store cut) allowing publishers to "reap the whirlwind" and actually get enough sales to pay for some marketing efforts (still not enough for salaries to pay for room and board, though...)
I've never found a gamer at a LGS. Always either online of friends I've known for years.
I do buy books from my gaming store sometimes when I don't have the patience to wait for shipping and I've got the extra cash to blow. When times are tight, (and they're tighter than most nowadays) I'll buy from online sources to save money.
There is something to be said for being able to browse and check out what a book is going to be like before buying it though.
A local store I frequent always seems to have tables full of card gamers in the middle of the store (the SMALL, already cramped store). Grown fatbeards positively SCREAMING at each other over the proper usage of some Pokemon card or other.
The place is crummy-looking and the bathroom seriously looks like part of a goddamn Silent Hill level.
Prices are cover and even the used stuff doesn't seem to be that discounted.
It is a huge turn-off. Is there any wonder I let Amazon and FRP Games handle most of my purchases?
Quote from: RPGPunditThere's all kinds of people in the industry bemoaning the death of the "friendly local gaming store" (even though many, if not most of these, were far from friendly).
I have already said it before: Let the fuckers die. Most of the times, if they are "dying" its because they deserve to. Its because they gouge their customers with price-hikes, provide godawful service because they're a bunch of amateurs or they've hired shitheads for employees, and create an utterly horrific public image for gamers by allowing themselves to become a haven for all the local community Lawncrappers.
The Gaming Stores that aren't like this are the ones that are actually surviving and doing well.
And of course these days, there is virtually no function that the Game Store provides that cannot be provided elsewhere, and usually better. You can buy most of the games that people actually want to play at the major chain bookstores. You can buy the rest of the RPGs online.
The only aspect that LGS have that has not yet been reproduced elsewhere is the aspect of LGS as a local gamer focus point for networking. And frankly, LGS suck ass for that. Its just that often, the LGS is the ONLY place you can find other gamers, connect to play campaigns, etc.
So my question is: what alternatives are there to this one issue? How do we figure out a better way to network local gamers, so that we can finally let the LGS die and not overly lament its passing?
RPGPundit
Sounds like someone's been going to the wrong store. You get your picture put up on the wall of shame?
Seriously, I live in the American South. It's a frigging dead zone. Their "one redeeming value" is more than enough for me.
And I am accustomed to good service, fair prices, etc. My particular store moved to the interweb, which has sucked for me this past year because I haven't owned a computer. The internet is not always a viable alternative.
As for solutions: Rather than bitch and moan, I'm going to open a store. The last one didn't go bankrupt, it was just more profitable online. So if the store itself was viable and money was not my #1 priority, then I should be able to run said store. I know an area with alot of foot-traffic to and from a nearby school. That would be perfect.
As for Indie publishing... again, why not an in-store funtion?
That'll solve my problem. The rest of you are on your own as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: YamoA local store I frequent always seems to have tables full of card gamers in the middle of the store (the SMALL, already cramped store). Grown fatbeards positively SCREAMING at each other over the proper usage of some Pokemon card or other.
The place is crummy-looking and the bathroom seriously looks like part of a goddamn Silent Hill level.
Prices are cover and even the used stuff doesn't seem to be that discounted.
It is a huge turn-off. Is there any wonder I let Amazon and FRP Games handle most of my purchases?
My son (8 at the time) and I were at a Toy's R Us when they were having some sort of Pokemon tournament and we're walking by when this greasy fat 30 something stands up and yells some freakish comment while pulling this card out of his deck with this like scary wild eyed look on his face. I'm thinking he won the match or something but he scared the living shit out of (what had to be) eight year old kid he was playing. Freak. I wanted to walk up and punch him out, but that would send a wrong message to the 'yoots' so I hustled my son away, shook my head and went about my business. I don't take my kids anywhere near gaming stores. ;)
Quote from: Myst3ry M@nMy son (8 at the time) and I were at a Toy's R Us when they were having some sort of Pokemon tournament and we're walking by when this greasy fat 30 something stands up and yells some freakish comment while pulling this card out of his deck with this like scary wild eyed look on his face. I'm thinking he won the match or something but he scared the living shit out of (what had to be) eight year old kid he was playing. Freak. I wanted to walk up and punch him out, but that would send a wrong message to the 'yoots' so I hustled my son away, shook my head and went about my business. I don't take my kids anywhere near gaming stores. ;)
Well, the ones at this store seem to be all adults and older teens. Not that that's really better, neccessarily. :)
I think the bigger issue is why are so many game stores so poorly run? A store can be a great place to meet people and run games, if the store is conducive to that sort of thing.
IME, the crap stores are dying off. It used to be that people would grit their teeth and visit a bottom-of-toilet store because they couldn't find RPGs or CCGs anywhere else. In the US, Borders and Barnes & Noble are changing that.
I think that the spooky, Silent Hill store is a relic of the 1990s, when only hardcore geeks played games. With the rise of Eurogames, families and non-hardcore geeks are getting into games.
Those people don't shop at the store pulled out of Silent Hill. They want a nicer, boutique kind of place. Every store I have visited that opened after 2000 has fit that description. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think (and hope) it's a trend.
Without a fad to convince people to pinch their noses and wander into Stenchville, stores can't survive with that identity.
Quote from: Myst3ry M@nMy son (8 at the time) and I were at a Toy's R Us when they were having some sort of Pokemon tournament and we're walking by when this greasy fat 30 something stands up and yells some freakish comment while pulling this card out of his deck with this like scary wild eyed look on his face. I'm thinking he won the match or something but he scared the living shit out of (what had to be) eight year old kid he was playing. Freak. I wanted to walk up and punch him out, but that would send a wrong message to the 'yoots' so I hustled my son away, shook my head and went about my business. I don't take my kids anywhere near gaming stores. ;)
The same thing happened atlast year's Gen Con. This greasy-looking 30.40-something guy was playing a kid in the Pokemon Card Game and I guess he won, because he stood up, screamed "EAT IT! BOOOOOYAH!!! YEAH!!! YEAH!!! THAT'S IT!!" and started mocking his opponent, some 10 year-old kid.
I'd like to think this was just the same guy, but I'm betting not.
The guy is omnipresent. He was spawned from the Simpsons and is a projection of our collective subconscious.
On the plus side, I'm pretty sure it's legal to shoot people who "Boo-yah" on-sight.
I've had generally good experiences at game stores.
The ones that have held card tournaments and RPG sessions have generally kept the players of a given session within the same age bracket. So I've rarely seen the 35-year-old-vs.-the-8-year-old thing, which is just creepy in any context.
I think game shops serve a valuable purpose. They encourage socialization, which God knows a lot of gamers need to experience and learn from. Humans are a social animal, and it's healthy for them to get together and hobnob with new people on occasion.
mearls mentions that the shops he's seen that have opened since around 2000 have been much more user-friendly. I tend to agree with that assessment, but I've had the good fortune to have patronized some truly kick-ass game shops, some of them having been around since the 1980s. Places like Collectors Warehouse in Cleveland, Matrix Games and Diversions to the west of Cleveland, the Bookery just outside Dayton, Game Empire in San Diego...these and maybe a half-dozen others I've frequented over the years have been top-notch. Attentive and responsive staff, good selection of material, clean and well-lit...the only thing most of them have lacked is air conditioning, mostly due to the cost involved (and yeah, I realize the implications for "gamer funk"). If they'd been the dank, smelly, unprofessional places many seem to have been inflicted with, I'd never have gone back.
So, I don't think we need to move beyond the LGS. We just need to be more discriminating in the places we patronize, and the ones that suck will die off and the ones that don't will stay around. I think one of the main problems is that gamers seem willing to put up with a lot of bullshit, whether from game shops or game companies. That kind of attitude is what needs to change.
QuoteI think that the spooky, Silent Hill store is a relic of the 1990s...
Actually, if you work full-time for Wizards, you probably live in the area and my even know of the store I'm describing.
Quote from: mearlsI think the bigger issue is why are so many game stores so poorly run? A store can be a great place to meet people and run games, if the store is conducive to that sort of thing.
IME, the crap stores are dying off. It used to be that people would grit their teeth and visit a bottom-of-toilet store because they couldn't find RPGs or CCGs anywhere else. In the US, Borders and Barnes & Noble are changing that.
I think that the spooky, Silent Hill store is a relic of the 1990s, when only hardcore geeks played games. With the rise of Eurogames, families and non-hardcore geeks are getting into games.
Those people don't shop at the store pulled out of Silent Hill. They want a nicer, boutique kind of place. Every store I have visited that opened after 2000 has fit that description. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I think (and hope) it's a trend.
Without a fad to convince people to pinch their noses and wander into Stenchville, stores can't survive with that identity.
Still... where do computerless geeks go for indie games? The thing is... Barnes&Noble and Borders still only carry the mainstream shiz. So the death of the nearly-exclusively gaming store is still very much a regrettable circumstance.
We have a couple gaming stores in my town that are worthless and need to die. However, the gaming store that I frequent though, I have to throw props to. The kid that does the ordering knows his shit. Their selection is above and beyond anything I've seen, and not just D20. He pays attention to message boards and sees watches for what people are buzzing about.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think game shops serve a valuable purpose. They encourage socialization, which God knows a lot of gamers need to experience and learn from. Humans are a social animal, and it's healthy for them to get together and hobnob with new people on occasion.
See, here's the thing, Colonel: I'm a game geek and I spent last Saturday night at dive bar, drunk off my ass and performing the Fresh Prince of Bel Aire theme to a crowd of cheering strangers (karaoke night, baby). Booze, debauchery and good times, with several people wondering how pictures of their naughty bits ended-up on a fellow reveler's digital camera the next morning.
This is socializing, my friend.
Game stores are for browsing and buying games. Period. We already have losers who only climb out of the basement to "socialize" at the game store, and we've seen where that leads (this thread).
Quote from: YamoSee, here's the thing, Colonel: I'm a game geek and I spent last Saturday night at dive bar, drunk off my ass and performing the Fresh Prince of Bel Aire theme to a crowd of cheering strangers (karaoke night, baby). Booze, debauchery and good times, with several people wondering how pictures of their naughty bits ended-up on a fellow reveler's digital camera the next morning.
This is socializing, my friend.
One type of socializing, sure. Not the only one. Especially not for anyone past the age of 23 or so.
Quote from: YamoGame stores are for browsing and buying games. Period. We already have losers who only climb out of the basement to "socialize" at the game store, and we've seen where that leads (this thread).
Take this in a friendly tone, but - bullshit. I could easily point out that dive bars are where losers go to get shit-faced and pretend they'll actually get laid tonight, but end up crying and pissing on their ex-girlfriend's lawn after they leave.
Quote from: YamoActually, if you work full-time for Wizards, you probably live in the area and my even know of the store I'm describing.
Is it the one over in Burien? I thought that one closed down in December. Or are there other cesspits in the area?
(The Burien store touched off my dearly held and frequently cited belief that Burien is an official government mutant containment zone.)
I'm sort of in LGS withdrawal. I had an awesome store in Boston (Pandemonium Books & Games) and I miss having a place to go and browse through SF books and gaming stuff.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonTake this in a friendly tone, but - bullshit. I could easily point out that dive bars are where losers go to get shit-faced and pretend they'll actually get laid tonight, but end up crying and pissing on their ex-girlfriend's lawn after they leave.
But at least they're fulfilling the place's function, unlike a gamer in an airbrushed wolf t-shirt who has hanging-out at the hobby shop counter and chatting the poor clerk's ear off about his 60th-level half-ogre anti-paladin for a "social life." :)
Quote from: mearlsIs it the one over in Burien? I thought that one closed down in December. Or are there other cesspits in the area?
Naw, that's Wonderworld. No idea if it's still there. I mean Gary's on Greenwood.
Quote from: YamoBut at least they're fulfilling the place's function, unlike a gamer in an airbrushed wolf t-shirt who has hanging-out at the hobby shop counter and chatting the poor clerk's ear off for a "social life.". :)
While I've seen plenty of examples of the worst kind of gamer stereotype hanging out at game shops, I've also seen plenty of decent, smart, hygienic folk at such shops also. Maybe my experience is unique. I doubt it. It's easy to trot out the tired old gamer cliche and wring yet another threadbare joke from it. Hell, I've done it myself. But I've seen game shops that were the focal point of good-sized groups of people for whom the place was a nexus for them all to meet up or at least touch base. For that matter, I've seen such groups meet up at shops and proceed to head out to some nightspot or a movie. Those are the types of places that are a pleasure to frequent. The shops that don't foster such a feeling of comeraderie are the ones I don't give a shit about beyond going in to browse through new books.
Quote from: YamoNaw, that's Wonderworld. No idea if it's still there. I mean Gary's on Greenwood.
Ah, haven't been to that one yet. I've been to Uncle's Games over in Bellevue and it seems nice enough. It's in a mall with food court that has Thai, Russian, Greek, Korean, BBQ, Mexican, and Indian food rather than the typical fast food, so it's always worth the trip.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonWhile I've seen plenty of examples of the worst kind of gamer stereotype hanging out at game shops, I've also seen plenty of decent, smart, hygienic folk at such shops also. Maybe my experience is unique. I doubt it. It's easy to trot out the tired old gamer cliche and wring yet another threadbare joke from it. Hell, I've done it myself. But I've seen game shops that were the focal point of good-sized groups of people for whom the place was a nexus for them all to meet up or at least touch base. For that matter, I've seen such groups meet up at shops and proceed to head out to some nightspot or a movie. Those are the types of places that are a pleasure to frequent. The shops that don't foster such a feeling of comeraderie are the ones I don't give a shit about beyond going in to browse through new books.
I don't know, it still seems to be to somewhat common sense that a well-adjusted person is more likely to see a store as a store and not as a hangout unto itself. A store is simply a place to go to shop for most people. I would feel very weirded-out by a dude who spent hours killing time at the grocery store, just striking-up conversations with other shoppers and discussing the merits and flaws of various food items.
Quote from: mearlsAh, haven't been to that one yet. I've been to Uncle's Games over in Bellevue and it seems nice enough. It's in a mall with food court that has Thai, Russian, Greek, Korean, BBQ, Mexican, and Indian food rather than the typical fast food, so it's always worth the trip.
That sounds like a great food court. I've been craving me some Thai and Indian food lately...
Quote from: YamoI don't know, it still seems to be to somewhat common sense that a well-adjusted person is more likely to see a store as a store and not as a hangout unto itself. A store is simply a place to go to shop for most people. I would feel very weirded-out by a dude who spent hours killing time at the grocery store, just striking-up conversations with other shoppers and discussing the merits and flaws of various food items.
Depends on the place. If it's simply a shop with just book racks, of course it's not a normal hangout. I'm talking about the places with actual areas set aside for gaming, which also have vending machines and the like, and in which the staff and/or owners actually play in the games run at the shop. You know how people say they would only game with people they'd be friends with? That applies. These people gamed together on a regular basis and were a group of friends rather than just a game group.
See, I get the feeling you've never been to a truly great game shop if you don't see what I'm talking about. EDIT: In addition, I've seen bookstores that are the same way. Book clubs meeting at local bookstores are a good example; they often morph into simply being groups of friends finding an excuse to hang out, especially at places like B&N that have drinks and food.
Quote from: mearlsAh, haven't been to that one yet. I've been to Uncle's Games over in Bellevue and it seems nice enough. It's in a mall with food court that has Thai, Russian, Greek, Korean, BBQ, Mexican, and Indian food rather than the typical fast food, so it's always worth the trip.
Sounds worth the drive. Mmm. Gyro.
Quote from: YamoI don't know, it still seems to be to somewhat common sense that a well-adjusted person is more likely to see a store as a store and not as a hangout unto itself. A store is simply a place to go to shop for most people. I would feel very weirded-out by a dude who spent hours killing time at the grocery store, just striking-up conversations with other shoppers and discussing the merits and flaws of various food items.
Meh... a business need not be limited to one function. Whatever draws the customers, really.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonSee, I get the feeling you've never been to a truly great game shop if you don't see what I'm talking about.
Well, I admit that I have seen more than a few that seemed like a bunch of folding tables set up for the obnoxious with some small "actual areas set aside for shoppers." :)
Quote from: YamoWell, I admit that I have seen more than a few that seemed like a bunch of folding tables set up for the obnoxious with some small "actual areas set aside for shoppers." :)
Yeah, those suck. The best game shops I've been to have been the ones where the staff and/or owner has struck up a conversation with me as i check out. I'm kinda standoffish until I get to know someone, and, to be honest, I treat game shops like any other store unless someone who works there tries to converse with me. "You play HackMaster? I'd love to get a group playing that here. We have sign-up sheets for time available at the tables" or some such. That's a sign of a great game shop.
There is an LGS just up the road from me that I think may have figured out a great way to serve their clients. They have 80% of their store devoted to tables. They charge a nominal fee to use a table (I think it's $5 for a few hours and $10 for the day). They sell various products, mostly cards, clix and dice. They have two "bankers boxes" with RPGs in them. This is not their primary business.
They have a clean bathroom, three vending machines and a bike-rack to lock up your bikes.
Every night that place is packed out! Yeah, it's mostly local neighbor kids playing cards. But I did a quick calculation...
25 tables @ $10 = $250 a day in gross profit (presuming an all-day rental or two 3 hour sessions).
I was there for an hour and saw twelve kids get a soda (20oz / $1.25) and a bag of chips or a candybar ($.75). That's another $10+ in an hour. (Figure they make $.75 on the soda and $.25 on the candybar)
If he sells nothing else, then he makes $300 a day in gross profit. If he sells some cards, some figures, some dice, then he'll make more. (Considering I saw him sell two packs of some kind of cards and a booster of Star Wars figures in that hour, I know he's doing other business, too.)
It's an LGS that couldn't give a flying flip about RPGs or the three-tier system.
He's making a cool living selling table space and providing a safe, social environment to kids with 100% disposable incomes.
Quote from: VellorianThere is an LGS just up the road from me that I think may have figured out a great way to serve their clients. They have 80% of their store devoted to tables. They charge a nominal fee to use a table (I think it's $5 for a few hours and $10 for the day). They sell various products, mostly cards, clix and dice. They have two "bankers boxes" with RPGs in them. This is not their primary business.
They have a clean bathroom, three vending machines and a bike-rack to lock up your bikes.
Every night that place is packed out! Yeah, it's mostly local neighbor kids playing cards. But I did a quick calculation...
25 tables @ $10 = $250 a day in gross profit (presuming an all-day rental or two 3 hour sessions).
I was there for an hour and saw twelve kids get a soda (20oz / $1.25) and a bag of chips or a candybar ($.75). That's another $10+ in an hour. (Figure they make $.75 on the soda and $.25 on the candybar)
If he sells nothing else, then he makes $300 a day in gross profit. If he sells some cards, some figures, some dice, then he'll make more. (Considering I saw him sell two packs of some kind of cards and a booster of Star Wars figures in that hour, I know he's doing other business, too.)
It's an LGS that couldn't give a flying flip about RPGs or the three-tier system.
He's making a cool living selling table space and providing a safe, social environment to kids with 100% disposable incomes.
That does sound like a sweet deal for the owner. Game Empire in San Diego has a really large room with tables - for minis and regular long folding tables - a clean bathroom, and vending machines, as well as bookshelves filled with various board games that can be played by anyone at the store. I don't know if they charge for table time. Still, the place is
packed Friday and Saturday night (they're open until 11 PM), both at the tables and in the game shop section.
That does sound like one hell of a game store.
It's the kind of store I wish we had, but mine's not too bad.
I think game stores are an important thing. They do serve as social centers, mine even has a cork wall devoted to advertisements of gamers looking for games. It hosts many different card and miniatures nights, and has a big open gaming space.
The adverts are what made me really like the store. There's a form specifically made for the purpose of finding new gamers. I've used them myself on occasion, but mostly without success.
σ <-- As a side note, my cat stepped on the keyboard and made this symbol.
Quote from: joewolzσ <-- As a side note, my cat stepped on the keyboard and made this symbol.
Isn't that a lower-case beta?
Quote from: VellorianHe's making a cool living selling table space and providing a safe, social environment to kids with 100% disposable incomes.
What an interesting business model! It's basically an Internet Cafe with gaming tables instead of computers
Quote from: VellorianIsn't that a lower-case beta?
Sigma.
Our FLGS closed down earlier this year because the landlord hiked up the rent.
I get some, small, satisfaction from the fact that the shop is still vacant six months later.
Didn't seem to have the problem of subhuman freaks using it as a hangout, but could have done with a higher customer base.
V.
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonWhat an interesting business model! It's basically an Internet Cafe with gaming tables instead of computers
Indeed, and I think I'd be willing to shell out for something like that, depending on the group that I was a part of, and what the groups housing situation was.
Quote from: mearlsI'm sort of in LGS withdrawal. I had an awesome store in Boston (Pandemonium Books & Games) and I miss having a place to go and browse through SF books and gaming stuff.
Pandemonium was awesome and is now even more so. They've moved to Central Square into a much bigger site, and now have a gaming area.
-mice
Quote from: ColonelHardissonThat does sound like a sweet deal for the owner. Game Empire in San Diego has a really large room with tables - for minis and regular long folding tables - a clean bathroom, and vending machines, as well as bookshelves filled with various board games that can be played by anyone at the store. I don't know if they charge for table time. Still, the place is packed Friday and Saturday night (they're open until 11 PM), both at the tables and in the game shop section.
I miss Game Empire.
Quote from: ergeheilaltI miss Game Empire.
Me too. I make a point of going there when I'm back in San Diego, and over to Mysterious Galaxy if it's early enough.
Alhtough I don't really hang out there (or in any Game Store for that matter), Game Empire here in San Diego is always crazy busy. They do have a subscription thingy there, but it's for use of the "house armies" and terrain for Warhammer (and 40k). Game Towne also has an open but less popular game room.
There's far too many weird-beards and young teens that frequent the gaming rooms for me. But it's a great place when you want to pick up an indy RPG book when Border's doesn't have it or Game Towne is closed. They have a pretty nice selction of Used/Old School books as well.
BTW have you ever been to Game Towne (in Old Town), I also like that place quite a lot. It's smaller and quiter (which is a plus for me, I hate hearing people yelling at each other about comic books or how "that Dragons in DnD are not Realistic"). The staff is knowledgeable, and they have more games on display. The only bother about it is it closes way early (5 on sundays, 6 on weekdays/weekends, they keep the game room open on weekends a little later though).
I would be sad if my LGS closed, simply for the instant gratification factor. I can go out and buy a copy of Kobolds ate my Babies RIGHT NOW and play it tonight! You can't do that over the internet.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe only aspect that LGS have that has not yet been reproduced elsewhere is the aspect of LGS as a local gamer focus point for networking. And frankly, LGS suck ass for that. Its just that often, the LGS is the ONLY place you can find other gamers, connect to play campaigns, etc.
RPGPundit
To be honest, a good RPG listing site (and I have yet to find one that I consider intuitive for finding gamers.
Because you consider this: If there is a FLGS on one end of the town and another on the other side, a person may check the boards at one FLGS and not the other. A good site for listing people looking for games and for players could reach all the people (even some who may not go into FLGS) and help people find players better.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think game shops serve a valuable purpose. They encourage socialization, which God knows a lot of gamers need to experience and learn from. Humans are a social animal, and it's healthy for them to get together and hobnob with new people on occasion.
Well first, I have never met anyone who learned gaming from a gamestore. All the gamers I know were introduced to the hobby by other gamers. As for socialization, I can get together with my friends and hang out, game. What do I need a game store for?
Quote from: ColonelHardissonSo, I don't think we need to move beyond the LGS. We just need to be more discriminating in the places we patronize, and the ones that suck will die off and the ones that don't will stay around. I think one of the main problems is that gamers seem willing to put up with a lot of bullshit, whether from game shops or game companies. That kind of attitude is what needs to change.
I disagree. I think that game stores and the function they provide is obsolete. You can get games online for cheap. There are sites where you can find other games (Better then what most game stores do for gamers).
I think the days of the FLGS are over. I have two good ones near me but I buy my stuff online? Why? It is cheaper to buy online and I simply dont need to visit them.
Quote from: KrakaJakAlhtough I don't really hang out there (or in any Game Store for that matter), Game Empire here in San Diego is always crazy busy. They do have a subscription thingy there, but it's for use of the "house armies" and terrain for Warhammer (and 40k). Game Towne also has an open but less popular game room.
There's far too many weird-beards and young teens that frequent the gaming rooms for me. But it's a great place when you want to pick up an indy RPG book when Border's doesn't have it or Game Towne is closed. They have a pretty nice selction of Used/Old School books as well.
You're right about Game Empire. It's not really a hang-out type of place, more like the type of place to go in, browse, and buy a book. Unless one is playing a game in the game room. But the staff is pretty cool.
Quote from: KrakaJakBTW have you ever been to Game Towne (in Old Town), I also like that place quite a lot. It's smaller and quiter (which is a plus for me, I hate hearing people yelling at each other about comic books or how "that Dragons in DnD are not Realistic"). The staff is knowledgeable, and they have more games on display. The only bother about it is it closes way early (5 on sundays, 6 on weekdays/weekends, they keep the game room open on weekends a little later though).
Sure, I've been there. It was actually closer to where I lived in San Diego. I have to admit I didn't go there often. It has a great selection of all types of games, not just RPGs. It just didn't often have the kind of stuff I was looking for. But it's a good store.
Quote from: Geek MessiahWell first, I have never met anyone who learned gaming from a gamestore.
I didn't learn to game at a game store either. But that could be more due to the fact I began gaming in 1979, and there weren't any real game stores in my area.
Quote from: Geek MessiahAll the gamers I know were introduced to the hobby by other gamers.
OK, most of them I know got into the same way. But that's just anecdotal.
Quote from: Geek MessiahAs for socialization, I can get together with my friends and hang out, game. What do I need a game store for?
I get the feeling that the younger one is, the easier it is to say something like that. Sometimes it's tough for everyone to just go and hang out at one person's place. Some may not have the space, others may have a spouse or significant other that doesn't like having a crowd over just because their husband/wife wants to hang out and shoot the shit. Plus, finding a centrally located place to game can be a factor.
The owner of a store I used to go to asked me to get into a campaign he was running. Most of the players were people in their late 20s and into their mid 30s. Sessions were Wednesdays from 6 to 9 PM. One of the guys was married, had kids, and encapsulated exactly why many people would find gaming at the store attractive - "I just wanna get the fuck outta the house!"
Another factor is that people who actually move to new areas are helped in finding new groups to game with via a store. Establishing a new circle of friends - and finding new friends that actually have an interest in gaming - can be tough. Yeah, I'm sure someone will counter with the internet being a place to find a group, but the game shop gives a neutral place to game and get to know what people are like. Who wants to invite strangers to one's home before getting to know them? What other venue provides one with a ready-made place to game? Libraries generally require a certain level of quietness. Most mainstream bookstores, restaurants, or what-have-you don't allow people to just come in and game.
Quote from: Geek MessiahI disagree. I think that game stores and the function they provide is obsolete. You can get games online for cheap. There are sites where you can find other games (Better then what most game stores do for gamers).
I think the days of the FLGS are over. I have two good ones near me but I buy my stuff online? Why? It is cheaper to buy online and I simply dont need to visit them.
Saying the game store is obsolete may be easy if one has never moved from where one was born and raised, but it seems rather myopic to do so. Things change, people move, spouses object, the internet doesn't provide a neautral place to meet with new people, etc.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonSaying the game store is obsolete may be easy if one has never moved from where one was born and raised, but it seems rather myopic to do so. Things change, people move, spouses object, the internet doesn't provide a neautral place to meet with new people, etc.
Not true at all. I met a group that I gamed with (Until I moved, schedules conflicted, etc) in person and we all get together from talking on a website forum.
When we gamed we had a really good time and it was sad that things fell apart (actually one person moved away).
As for someone who has never moved from where they were born, couldnt tell you what that is like. I was born on the west coast and I am now on the east coast, moving many times.
Quote from: Geek MessiahNot true at all.
What's not true?
Quote from: Geek MessiahI met a group that I gamed with (Until I moved, schedules conflicted, etc) in person and we all get together from talking on a website forum.
How did you meet this group? Where?
I think most people prefer face-to-face gaming. Certainly I'm aware that PbP is a substitute for face-to-face when one simply cannot find a group. But it's not an equal substitute. That's why game shops are important.
Quote from: Geek MessiahWhen we gamed we had a really good time and it was sad that things fell apart (actually one person moved away).
True, that does suck. So how did you go about finding another face-to-face gaming group?
Quote from: Geek MessiahAs for someone who has never moved from where they were born, couldnt tell you what that is like. I was born on the west coast and I am now on the east coast, moving many times.
I've moved several time myself, 3 times in the last 3 years alone. Finding new groups to game with face-to-face can be tough.
I've moved several times, as well, but I've never had much trouble finding/founding new groups. Usually I end up making friends with the same interests at work, and it just goes from there. This has happened several times. I'm back in College full time now, and if I can get in to grad school after I'm done, I'll have to move again; but I don't see any real problem finding another group at that point. It probably wont happen over night though, but that's okay.
If all else fails, something that might work is to go to the local con and sign up for a few games. Your bound to meet a few people from the area.
Quote from: AosI've moved several times, as well, but I've never had much trouble finding/founding new groups. Usually I end up making friends with the same interests at work, and it just goes from there. This has happened several times. I'm back in College full time now, and if I can get in to grad school after I'm done, I'll have to move again; but I don't see any real problem finding another group at that point. It probably wont happen over night though, but that's okay.
Yeah, being in college makes it easier to find a group.
Quote from: AosIf all else fails, something that might work is to go to the local con and sign up for a few games. Your bound to meet a few people from the area.
I could see that working.
I've become a regular at the nearest game shop, a pretty good one. I go in, browse, and buy stuff. I don't usually talk to anybody, just like at any other store. The staff is pretty attentive, though, and began asking me within a few weeks if I'd be interested in any of the groups they had running there. The first time this happened was when I bought a d20 Modern book (I forget which one). I was asked if I wanted to run a game of it. I was also asked this about HackMaster, after buying a HackMaster book. The staff have volunteered the info as to what nights have what games running, and have directed me to the store's website for a schedule of events and such. This kinda surprised me, but it bespoke of how a game shop - a
good game shop, with good employees - could be an important nexus point for gamers.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonHow did you meet this group? Where?
We met on rpg.net and then we got together and played face to face
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think most people prefer face-to-face gaming. Certainly I'm aware that PbP is a substitute for face-to-face when one simply cannot find a group. But it's not an equal substitute. That's why game shops are important.
I understand the PbP is not a equal subsititute (though I know those who disagree). My group met online and we played face to face in many different places. We didnt require a game store to get together. And the game stores I know of (the two) care more about miniatures (Because they make more money from them) then rpgs, so the miniatures gamers take up the table space.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonTrue, that does suck. So how did you go about finding another face-to-face gaming group?
A couple of people I work with are gamers and it went from there. Again, a local game store contributed nothing.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI've moved several time myself, 3 times in the last 3 years alone. Finding new groups to game with face-to-face can be tough.
It can be. It took me 2 years to find another local face to face group. The problem is (and industry insiders are even saying it) that the gamer base is shrinking because people are moving to other things (such as world of warcraft, miniatures and the like).
If I were to lose the group I am with (which I doubt would happen unless I move) then I would simply sell off my game stuff and quit the hobby. I was lucky to find the group I have now, and I almost quit before finding them. Personally, if I have to wait 2 more years to find a group this hobby will become more trouble then its worth and I will just sell my stuff and move on to something else.
I definitely say the LGS is a relic of the past that needs to go. Thinking about my own experiences, having a LGS around has always made it harder, not easier, to find other gamers to play with. It's like they actively sap the energy from the hobby. Historically, in the times when the area has been without a LGS, players have been very easy to find.
Thankfully, RPGs are finally coming out of a dark age and are being stocked in major stores again. I see them in Hastings, Barnes & Noble, and I've even seen a few of the D&D Basic sets in Target and Toys R Us (they're marked down to $7 and still don't sell because it's a shitty product that can't compare to everything else, but it's still there). The ultimate goal should be trying to get a tiny section in Wal-Mart.
LGSes do nothing whatsoever to introduce people to gaming. RPGs were so popular in the 80s because Sears, Kay Bee Toys, Toys R Us, Waldenbooks, and every other store carried the range of TSR games along with some ICE and maybe a few others. That was why gaming was so big. When those stores quit carrying RPGS, it was a foregone conclusion that RPGs would die. And that's exactly what happened during the 90s, along with the rise of the LGS. Showing just how worthless the LGS is, all they did was ride the hobby to the bottom, doing nothing to slow the fall.
Now, the internet is going to fill most of the functions of what a LGS hypothetically did, that is introduce a select few gamers to a wider array of stuff. Stiggybaby and Nobleknight both have newsletters to advertise new stuff to customers. I think they should take that a step beyond and make a sort of fanzine like the Dragon Magazine of old. The old Dragon of the mid 80s cannot be underestimated. It likely kept many people in the hobby during the time and broadened the overall range of the hobby. It's sad that the current Dragon isn't even a shadow of that former greatness.
In any event, some online shop is probably going to eventually take the plunge and realize that a sort of fan-newsletter with product advertisements, articles, and reviews would be a good thing.
Frankly, I'm far too refined and sophisticated to hang out in some sweaty room above a shop full of weirdos talking about their 15th level Paladins. My opinion of Local game shops is the same as my opinion of local book shops: burn them all and go buy stuff from Amazon.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalFrankly, I'm far too refined and sophisticated to hang out in some sweaty room above a shop full of weirdos talking about their 15th level Paladins. My opinion of Local game shops is the same as my opinion of local book shops: burn them all and go buy stuff from Amazon.
Yeah, I'm not really happy with my stock in Amazon, either. Novel approach to boost the stock price, though. ;)
Quote from: GabrielShowing just how worthless the LGS is, all they did was ride the hobby to the bottom, doing nothing to slow the fall.
Now, the internet is going to fill most of the functions of what a LGS hypothetically did, that is introduce a select few gamers to a wider array of stuff. Stiggybaby and Nobleknight both have newsletters to advertise new stuff to customers. I think they should take that a step beyond and make a sort of fanzine like the Dragon Magazine of old. The old Dragon of the mid 80s cannot be underestimated. It likely kept many people in the hobby during the time and broadened the overall range of the hobby. It's sad that the current Dragon isn't even a shadow of that former greatness.
In any event, some online shop is probably going to eventually take the plunge and realize that a sort of fan-newsletter with product advertisements, articles, and reviews would be a good thing.
Totally agree. The have been a leech on the hobby. The Game stores and even the distributors make more money then the game companies and had nothing to do with the creation of the game.
Companies need to start selling directly to put via the internet. Even if a book is usually $50 and you sell it for $40 (including shipping) you are still doing well.
Because if shipping a book is $5 then you still have made $35 in profit which is more then you would have made through the traditional channels.
To Vellorian :
Actually, that was partly my thinking.
"Mature market" my arse! Plenty of room for growth if we can just get rid of the competition. You know what else I hate? public libraries and free books for school kids... commies! Won't someone PLEASE think of my dividends?!
Quote from: GabrielI definitely say the LGS is a relic of the past that needs to go. Thinking about my own experiences, having a LGS around has always made it harder, not easier, to find other gamers to play with. It's like they actively sap the energy from the hobby. Historically, in the times when the area has been without a LGS, players have been very easy to find.
I don't know where you are, but that sure wasn't "historically" true in the places I've been. It was easy to find gamers when I was in school and college, but beyond that...? I've rarely seen a workplace that wasn't computer-focused that had even one gamer.
Quote from: GabrielThankfully, RPGs are finally coming out of a dark age and are being stocked in major stores again. I see them in Hastings, Barnes & Noble, and I've even seen a few of the D&D Basic sets in Target and Toys R Us (they're marked down to $7 and still don't sell because it's a shitty product that can't compare to everything else, but it's still there). The ultimate goal should be trying to get a tiny section in Wal-Mart.
Sure, that would help get new players into the hobby, I agree.
Quote from: GabrielLGSes do nothing whatsoever to introduce people to gaming.
Shitty LGSs do nothing, good LGSs do quite a bit.
Quote from: GabrielRPGs were so popular in the 80s because Sears, Kay Bee Toys, Toys R Us, Waldenbooks, and every other store carried the range of TSR games along with some ICE and maybe a few others. That was why gaming was so big.
I don't think that's true. Most of those stores jumped on the bandwagon once RPGs got popular, and dropped them when the fad began to wane. In my experience, it was hobby shops and indy bookstores that got the hobby going.
Quote from: GabrielWhen those stores quit carrying RPGS, it was a foregone conclusion that RPGs would die.
Naw, it was a sign that RPGs were already losing popularity when those stores quit carrying them. Hate to say it, but RPGs, embodied by D&D, were a fad in the 1980s, and like any fad, it simply lost its grip on the national consciousness.
Quote from: GabrielAnd that's exactly what happened during the 90s, along with the rise of the LGS. Showing just how worthless the LGS is, all they did was ride the hobby to the bottom, doing nothing to slow the fall.
Like any fad, there is very little that can be done once the fad fades. LGSs simply tried to squeeze what they could out of the fan base that remained after the fad went away. Good LGSs diversified what they carried, and became one-stop game stores that carried every type of game, game/comic shops, or genre shops that carried just about anything that was related to scifi and fantasy.
Quote from: GabrielNow, the internet is going to fill most of the functions of what a LGS hypothetically did, that is introduce a select few gamers to a wider array of stuff.
That I agree with. The internet is the best thing to happen to gaming. It lets gamers connect around the world and compare notes, it lets us have access to the thoughts of top designers, it lets us find obscure games we would never have had access to otherwise, and it lets us find games we heard about decades ago and never got a chance to lay hands on. But that doesn't obviate the usefulness of a good LGS (see what I've posted earlier for what I feel their function is).
Quote from: GabrielStiggybaby and Nobleknight both have newsletters to advertise new stuff to customers. I think they should take that a step beyond and make a sort of fanzine like the Dragon Magazine of old. The old Dragon of the mid 80s cannot be underestimated. It likely kept many people in the hobby during the time and broadened the overall range of the hobby. It's sad that the current Dragon isn't even a shadow of that former greatness.
Dragon definitely was a touchstone for the RPG hobby in the 80s. Content-wise, though, it's in another Golden Age right now. I don't think any print publication can compete with the internet on its own turf today, so it makes sense for Dragon to change its focus.
Quote from: GabrielIn any event, some online shop is probably going to eventually take the plunge and realize that a sort of fan-newsletter with product advertisements, articles, and reviews would be a good thing.
That would be a good thing.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonShitty LGSs do nothing, good LGSs do quite a bit.
You say this about LGS's bringing people into the hobby but I explained the people I know who game never learned from a FLGS. Furthermore you said you didnt learn from a FLGS either.
So other then your wishful thinking I would like to see solid proof of that.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonBut that doesn't obviate the usefulness of a good LGS (see what I've posted earlier for what I feel their function is).
None of which is not also possiable by the internet. The resources sure can improve but the LGS is obsolete and it's time is passing quickly
Quote from: Geek MessiahYou say this about LGS's bringing people into the hobby but I explained the people I know who game never learned from a FLGS. Furthermore you said you didnt learn from a FLGS either.
Yeah, I'm 40 and began gaming in 1979. There were few, if any, real LGSs at that time, and none in my area. So pointing out that I, and people of my age range, didn't is pointless.
Quote from: Geek MessiahSo other then your wishful thinking I would like to see solid proof of that.
Seriously, if you're going to ask me for solid proof, you might want to back up your own arguments - or wishful thinking, to use your term - with it also. My evidence is as anecdotal as yours. I can simply say that I've asked people I know how they got into the hobby, and many of the 20-somethings say it was by getting hooked at a LGS, often enough by moving from card games to RPGs.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYou know what else I hate? public libraries and free books for school kids... commies! Won't someone PLEASE think of my dividends?!
Actually, private libraries were a viable commodity in days gone by, but they were all run out of business through "unfair competition" by public libraries. The internet still has its version of the "private library", though it's usually a site that creates its own content and asks for a subscribtion to partake.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonSeriously, if you're going to ask me for solid proof, you might want to back up your own arguments - or wishful thinking, to use your term - with it also. My evidence is as anecdotal as yours. I can simply say that I've asked people I know how they got into the hobby, and many of the 20-somethings say it was by getting hooked at a LGS, often enough by moving from card games to RPGs.
So I guess on this point we will agree to disagree. The LGS is going to go away and the hobby will survive just find without them.
The internet is taking over the majority if not all of the functions of the LGS and the LGS has no purpose in the hobby anymore.
The sooner the LGS and the broken 3 tier distribution system goes away the better off the hobby will be
Quote from: Geek MessiahSo I guess on this point we will agree to disagree. The LGS is going to go away and the hobby will survive just find without them.
It might be insightful to know the general area where you're from. I'm from Ohio originally, near Cleveland, but I lived in Columbus and Dayton also. I'm still relatively new to the L.A. area.
Quote from: Geek MessiahThe internet is taking over the majority if not all of the functions of the LGS and the LGS has no purpose in the hobby anymore.
The sooner the LGS and the broken 3 tier distribution system goes away the better off the hobby will be
I just don't see what is inherently wrong with it. Human beings are gregarious by nature. Given that they like to gather together for the things they like - take sports bars for an example - I don't see why people have such a hard-on for the death of the LGS. I can see wanting the ones that are crappy to go away, but beyond that :shrug:
Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt might be insightful to know the general area where you're from. I'm from Ohio originally, near Cleveland, but I lived in Columbus and Dayton also. I'm still relatively new to the L.A. area.
I am from PA (just outside of Philadelphia
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI just don't see what is inherently wrong with it. Human beings are gregarious by nature. Given that they like to gather together for the things they like - take sports bars for an example - I don't see why people have such a hard-on for the death of the LGS. I can see wanting the ones that are crappy to go away, but beyond that :shrug:
People can gather and dont need a FLGS to do so. As I and others have said they serve zero purpose for the hobby and game companies would be better off selling directly to people. They would make more money that way and be able to pay writers better.
The 3 tier distribution system is broken and needs to be gone. The hobby suffers because it is in place,
Quote from: Geek MessiahPeople can gather and dont need a FLGS to do so.
True, but we don't need sports bars, masonic lodges, or casinos, but they do pretty well. Places for people to gather to share a hobby are pretty common.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonTrue, but we don't need sports bars, masonic lodges, or casinos, but they do pretty well. Places for people to gather to share a hobby are pretty common.
That's true. Except that sports bars, masonic lodges and casinos have a fan base that is much larger then rpgs.
I doubt the entire gamer base makes up 1% of the earth's population. The other examples you give have a large enough fan base to support it and serve more of a purpose (They sell food, etc).
LGS's serve no purpose but to leech off a small fan base. They make more then the game company makes (there is something clearly wrong with that) and really do nothing for the hobby that you cant get from internet sites.
The FLGS's I have been in perfer to cater to Miniatures and Cards (mostly Miniatures) because it makes them more money. RPGS are an afterthought.
Once the resources on the internet for gamers imporve (And they are doing pretty well as is) the need for a LGS will shrink more and more.
In the last year + (According to industry insiders) 40% of the game stores went under (Some 1,100 Game Stores). Now the internet didnt put all of them out of business, bad management, bad location, etc probably played a big part but I am sure internet sales also impacted them.
If a LGS doesnt have what I want it does me no good. "I can order that for you" does me no good either because I can go on the internet and order it myself and have it sent directly to my house.
Quote from: Geek MessiahThat's true. Except that sports bars, masonic lodges and casinos have a fan base that is much larger then rpgs.
I doubt the entire gamer base makes up 1% of the earth's population.
I'd guess it's even smaller than that. It's amazing to me that game shops in general have survived as long as they have.
Quote from: Geek MessiahThe other examples you give have a large enough fan base to support it and serve more of a purpose (They sell food, etc).
The best game shops I've been to also do more than simply sell games. They have gaming space (and someone mentioned elsewhere that some of them actually rent tables, which is actually pretty cool if one wants to make sure their scheduled game doesn't get crowded out), many of them have more than just games - they have movie memorabilia, comics, scripts, movies, and books, and they run tournaments. I feel that the best and biggest of them would do well to have food available besides vending machine stuff, especially on nights they know they will have a lot of business and game running.
Quote from: Geek MessiahLGS's serve no purpose but to leech off a small fan base. They make more then the game company makes (there is something clearly wrong with that) and really do nothing for the hobby that you cant get from internet sites.
The FLGS's I have been in perfer to cater to Miniatures and Cards (mostly Miniatures) because it makes them more money. RPGS are an afterthought.
It sounds more like you have had some bad game shops in your area, rather than there being something wrong with game shops as a concept. I've had some pretty good ones nearby, ones that really cater to their clientele. Some keep tossing about that game shops aren't places for gamers to socialize, but I have to wonder why not? Good bookstores have book clubs; good game shops should be places where gamers can game.
Also, I've personally known some shop owners. The best ones, which have not been in the minority, have been enthusiastic gamers themselves, and conscientiously tried to keep in touch with their customers' needs. Calling them leeches across the board is inaccurate.
Quote from: Geek MessiahOnce the resources on the internet for gamers imporve (And they are doing pretty well as is) the need for a LGS will shrink more and more.
In the last year + (According to industry insiders) 40% of the game stores went under (Some 1,100 Game Stores). Now the internet didnt put all of them out of business, bad management, bad location, etc probably played a big part but I am sure internet sales also impacted them.
Normally, when someone cites unnamed insiders, I pay it little heed. But in this case, I've read in various places about the plight of game shops. I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, if it leaves the good places intact or moves bad ones (or those thinking of opening a shop) to improve their services.
Quote from: Geek MessiahIf a LGS doesnt have what I want it does me no good. "I can order that for you" does me no good either because I can go on the internet and order it myself and have it sent directly to my house.
Despite the flip answers some give about how they go to bars or the like to socialize, I still see it as a negative for gamers to be given even less opportunity to mix with others of like interest. Game conventions draw the same kind of people that go to game shops. Most people go to conventions to be around other gamers, whether to game or to shoot the shit. Wise shop owners would pay heed to this.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI'd guess it's even smaller than that. It's amazing to me that game shops in general have survived as long as they have.
You are right about that. I am sure there are going to be more closing down and the number of game shops will drop even more
Quote from: ColonelHardissonThe best game shops I've been to also do more than simply sell games. They have gaming space (and someone mentioned elsewhere that some of them actually rent tables, which is actually pretty cool if one wants to make sure their scheduled game doesn't get crowded out), many of them have more than just games - they have movie memorabilia, comics, scripts, movies, and books, and they run tournaments. I feel that the best and biggest of them would do well to have food available besides vending machine stuff, especially on nights they know they will have a lot of business and game running.
See to me those are not "Game Stores" those are stores where games are kind of an afterthought.
Even though that kind of store is nice that kind of store is few and far between. Believe me, I have talked to many people and their experience meshes with mine.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt sounds more like you have had some bad game shops in your area, rather than there being something wrong with game shops as a concept. I've had some pretty good ones nearby, ones that really cater to their clientele. Some keep tossing about that game shops aren't places for gamers to socialize, but I have to wonder why not? Good bookstores have book clubs; good game shops should be places where gamers can game.
You dont need a game store to mingle. You can get together for a game, create a game day where everyone meets and has a mini-con or even go to a con and mingle. The only thing a game store provides is game space (I dont need it, I have plenty of places to play) and full priced games (I dont feel I am obligated to keep a game store open by paying full price), expecially when they did nothing to create the game. If I am going to pay full price I am going to go to the game companies website and pay them directly so they get all the money.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonAlso, I've personally known some shop owners. The best ones, which have not been in the minority, have been enthusiastic gamers themselves, and conscientiously tried to keep in touch with their customers' needs. Calling them leeches across the board is inaccurate.
Again what are they providing that I cannot find on the net?
Quote from: ColonelHardissonNormally, when someone cites unnamed insiders, I pay it little heed. But in this case, I've read in various places about the plight of game shops. I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, if it leaves the good places intact or moves bad ones (or those thinking of opening a shop) to improve their services.
Fair enough. Garth Michael-Skarka who creates games like Skull and Cross Bones and has worked on many more talks about it on his blog:
http://gmskarka.livejournal.com/141431.html#cutid1
Quote from: ColonelHardissonDespite the flip answers some give about how they go to bars or the like to socialize, I still see it as a negative for gamers to be given even less opportunity to mix with others of like interest. Game conventions draw the same kind of people that go to game shops. Most people go to conventions to be around other gamers, whether to game or to shoot the shit. Wise shop owners would pay heed to this.
There are plenty of conventions, they can go there to socialize. They can go on the internet to find players and to buy items.
I have a comic book store that sells games and a full fledged game store that sells just games around me. The people are nice (The people at the game-only store are a bit elitist- some are) and the stores are fine, but I could care less if either goes out of business. I will only buy online because I save money and I dont need the game stores. If they go out of business the hobby will continue without a hickup.
Quote from: Geek MessiahSee to me those are not "Game Stores" those are stores where games are kind of an afterthought.
Depends on what you mean by "afterthought." Having a diverse array of products to sell doesn't mean any of them are really given short shrift by a good shop owner.
Quote from: Geek MessiahEven though that kind of store is nice that kind of store is few and far between. Believe me, I have talked to many people and their experience meshes with mine.
Well, I've talked to many people, and their experiences mesh with mine.
Quote from: Geek MessiahYou dont need a game store to mingle. You can get together for a game,
Where? As I've said before, not everyone can simply invite a group home to game, especially if they're strangers, and public libraries and bookstores don't often set aside space for such things.
Quote from: Geek Messiahcreate a game day where everyone meets and has a mini-con
Again, where?
Quote from: Geek Messiahor even go to a con and mingle.
Cons don't occur that regularly.
Quote from: Geek MessiahThe only thing a game store provides is game space (I dont need it, I have plenty of places to play)
Then your experiences don't mesh well with anyone else's I've ever known, unless you're in school or rich.
Quote from: Geek Messiahand full priced games (I dont feel I am obligated to keep a game store open by paying full price),
Neither do I.
Quote from: Geek Messiahexpecially when they did nothing to create the game. If I am going to pay full price I am going to go to the game companies website and pay them directly so they get all the money.
Regardless of what many who are online think, I would hazard a guess that the majority of gamers are either not online, or never use the internet for anything to do with gaming (and I'm specifically talking about pencil & paper RPGs). I still run across avid gamers who have no real idea that RPG gamers have such an active presence on the internet.
Quote from: Geek MessiahAgain what are they providing that I cannot find on the net?
I've already covered this. To boil it down - a place for gamers to actually get together and game. There sure seem to be a lot of people playing at the tables in various game shops I've been to across the country. Seems not everyone has free and easy space available to them.
Quote from: Geek MessiahThere are plenty of conventions, they can go there to socialize.
I'm not sure what you mean by "plenty." If one relied on conventions to game, one would game very rarely.
Quote from: Geek MessiahThey can go on the internet to find players and to buy items.
Buying stuff is one thing. Meeting people on the internet? Kind of a crap-shoot. At least at a game shop, one can actually meet the person for real and use their spider-sense on 'em, and maybe ask others about the person. On the internet...you don't have either luxury.
Quote from: Geek MessiahI have a comic book store that sells games and a full fledged game store that sells just games around me. The people are nice (The people at the game-only store are a bit elitist- some are) and the stores are fine, but I could care less if either goes out of business. I will only buy online because I save money and I dont need the game stores. If they go out of business the hobby will continue without a hickup.
Maybe. But I get the feeling that if the hobby goes that way, it'll end up being played mostly online.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonMaybe. But I get the feeling that if the hobby goes that way, it'll end up being played mostly online.
Or more likely someone will set up a really good resource (I am considering do so) that people will be able to use to find gamers and meet in person, have gamer meets and point to online stores with good reps to buy their games from.
Quote from: Geek MessiahOr more likely someone will set up a really good resource (I am considering do so) that people will be able to use to find gamers and meet in person, have gamer meets and point to online stores with good reps to buy their games from.
Out of curiosity, do you have any ideas about where such meet-ups could occur? I have nothing against them in principle, I just don't know where they'd take place
Quote from: ColonelHardissonOut of curiosity, do you have any ideas about where such meet-ups could occur? I have nothing against them in principle, I just don't know where they'd take place
They could happen at a persons house (I know it sounds weird but the group I gamed with that met online got together at one of the players house the first time and a couple times at my house. That first game was the first time we had met eachother. No problems what so ever.
If you check on Enworld there are a couple people having game meets at their houses. So its being done outside of the game store.
I am sure libraries have rooms that you can reserve for free and you could have a meet at a conference room at a public libarary.
Those are the only ones that come to mind right now. I am sure I will come up with more.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonOut of curiosity, do you have any ideas about where such meet-ups could occur? I have nothing against them in principle, I just don't know where they'd take place
LARPers around where I am get together every Thurday at a downtown pub, dominating about half of the place.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenLARPers around where I am get together every Thurday at a downtown pub, dominating about half of the place.
Thats another good idea. Although Larpers and drinking could be a bad thing :D (But then you can subsitute drinking with many different things and get the same result). :D
Quote from: Geek MessiahAlthough Larpers and drinking could be a bad thing
I firmly believe that, given that slightly over half of the LARPers hereabouts are female, and a good half of those are quite nice to look at, drinking and LARPers is a
great thing.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenI firmly believe that, given that slightly over half of the LARPers hereabouts are female, and a good half of those are quite nice to look at, drinking and LARPers is a great thing.
I have never in my life been jealous of anyone. Until Now :D
I'm always amazed that the local game store thinks the best thing to put front and centre in their store window is a display of burnt out buildings for warhammer 40K. Seriously a big blackened pile of destroyed model buildings. To the average person it might look like Barbie and Ken had a fire and their dream house burnt down.
How can a business owner think that's the best thing to put in their front window to encourage people to come into their store?
The Silver Snail in Toronto always has really great displays (https://www.silversnail.com/shop/m-muppets.html) in the front window. They make you want to go inside and see what the store is about.
Quote from: StuartI'm always amazed that the local game store thinks the best thing to put front and centre in their store window is a display of burnt out buildings for warhammer 40K. Seriously a big blackened pile of destroyed model buildings. To the average person it might look like Barbie and Ken had a fire and their dream house burnt down.
How can a business owner think that's the best thing to put in their front window to encourage people to come into their store?
The Silver Snail in Toronto always has really great displays (https://www.silversnail.com/shop/m-muppets.html) in the front window. They make you want to go inside and see what the store is about.
Because Miniatures and Warhammer 40k is where they make their money, not on rpgs.
Quote from: Geek MessiahAlthough Larpers and drinking could be a bad thing :D
I don't think I've knowingly spent a moment sober while LARPing for a long, long time (unless I'm the designated driver of course)
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI don't think I've knowingly spent a moment sober while LARPing for a long, long time (unless I'm the designated driver of course)
Huh because when I have larped drinking wasnt really allowed. And I think one of WW's rules for larping is no drinking.
As if anyone follows the rules :D
Quote from: Geek MessiahHuh because when I have larped drinking wasnt really allowed. And I think one of WW's rules for larping is no drinking.
It also has a "no touching" rule
If both of those had been in effect, I'd still be a virgin
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIt also has a "no touching" rule
If both of those had been in effect, I'd still be a virgin
TMI