Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt might be insightful to know the general area where you're from. I'm from Ohio originally, near Cleveland, but I lived in Columbus and Dayton also. I'm still relatively new to the L.A. area.

I am from PA (just outside of Philadelphia

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI just don't see what is inherently wrong with it. Human beings are gregarious by nature. Given that they like to gather together for the things they like - take sports bars for an example - I don't see why people have such a hard-on for the death of the LGS. I can see wanting the ones that are crappy to go away, but beyond that :shrug:

People can gather and dont need a FLGS to do so.   As I and others have said they serve zero purpose for the hobby and game companies would be better off selling directly to people.   They would make more money that way and be able to pay writers better.

The 3 tier distribution system is broken and needs to be gone.   The hobby suffers because it is in place,

Quote from: Geek MessiahPeople can gather and dont need a FLGS to do so.

True, but we don't need sports bars, masonic lodges, or casinos, but they do pretty well. Places for people to gather to share a hobby are pretty common.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonTrue, but we don't need sports bars, masonic lodges, or casinos, but they do pretty well. Places for people to gather to share a hobby are pretty common.

That's true.  Except that sports bars, masonic lodges and casinos have a fan base that is much larger then rpgs.

I doubt the entire gamer base makes up 1% of the earth's population.   The other examples you give have a large enough fan base to support it and serve more of a purpose (They sell food, etc).

LGS's serve no purpose but to leech off a small fan base.   They make more then the game company makes (there is something clearly wrong with that) and really do nothing for the hobby that you cant get from internet sites.

The FLGS's I have been in perfer to cater to Miniatures and Cards (mostly Miniatures) because it makes them more money.   RPGS are an afterthought.  

Once the resources on the internet for gamers imporve (And they are doing pretty well as is) the need for a LGS will shrink more and more.

In the last year + (According to industry insiders) 40% of the game stores went under (Some 1,100 Game Stores).   Now the internet didnt put all of them out of business, bad management, bad location, etc probably played a big part but I am sure internet sales also impacted them.

If a LGS doesnt have what I want it does me no good.   "I can order that for you" does me no good either because I can go on the internet and order it myself and have it sent directly to my house.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThat's true.  Except that sports bars, masonic lodges and casinos have a fan base that is much larger then rpgs.

I doubt the entire gamer base makes up 1% of the earth's population.

I'd guess it's even smaller than that. It's amazing to me that game shops in general have survived as long as they have.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThe other examples you give have a large enough fan base to support it and serve more of a purpose (They sell food, etc).

The best game shops I've been to also do more than simply sell games. They have gaming space (and someone mentioned elsewhere that some of them actually rent tables, which is actually pretty cool if one wants to make sure their scheduled game doesn't get crowded out), many of them have more than just games - they have movie memorabilia, comics, scripts, movies, and books, and they run tournaments. I feel that the best and biggest of them would do well to have food available besides vending machine stuff, especially on nights they know they will have a lot of business and game running.

Quote from: Geek MessiahLGS's serve no purpose but to leech off a small fan base.   They make more then the game company makes (there is something clearly wrong with that) and really do nothing for the hobby that you cant get from internet sites.

The FLGS's I have been in perfer to cater to Miniatures and Cards (mostly Miniatures) because it makes them more money.   RPGS are an afterthought.

It sounds more like you have had some bad game shops in your area, rather than there being something wrong with game shops as a concept. I've had some pretty good ones nearby, ones that really cater to their clientele. Some keep tossing about that game shops aren't places for gamers to socialize, but I have to wonder why not? Good bookstores have book clubs; good game shops should be places where gamers can game.

Also, I've personally known some shop owners. The best ones, which have not been in the minority, have been enthusiastic gamers themselves, and conscientiously tried to keep in touch with their customers' needs. Calling them leeches across the board is inaccurate.    

Quote from: Geek MessiahOnce the resources on the internet for gamers imporve (And they are doing pretty well as is) the need for a LGS will shrink more and more.

In the last year + (According to industry insiders) 40% of the game stores went under (Some 1,100 Game Stores).   Now the internet didnt put all of them out of business, bad management, bad location, etc probably played a big part but I am sure internet sales also impacted them.

Normally, when someone cites unnamed insiders, I pay it little heed. But in this case, I've read in various places about the plight of game shops. I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, if it leaves the good places intact or moves bad ones (or those thinking of opening a shop) to improve their services.

Quote from: Geek MessiahIf a LGS doesnt have what I want it does me no good.   "I can order that for you" does me no good either because I can go on the internet and order it myself and have it sent directly to my house.

Despite the flip answers some give about how they go to bars or the like to socialize, I still see it as a negative for gamers to be given even less opportunity to mix with others of like interest. Game conventions draw the same kind of people that go to game shops. Most people go to conventions to be around other gamers, whether to game or to shoot the shit. Wise shop owners would pay heed to this.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI'd guess it's even smaller than that. It's amazing to me that game shops in general have survived as long as they have.

You are right about that.   I am sure there are going to be more closing down and the number of game shops will drop even more

Quote from: ColonelHardissonThe best game shops I've been to also do more than simply sell games. They have gaming space (and someone mentioned elsewhere that some of them actually rent tables, which is actually pretty cool if one wants to make sure their scheduled game doesn't get crowded out), many of them have more than just games - they have movie memorabilia, comics, scripts, movies, and books, and they run tournaments. I feel that the best and biggest of them would do well to have food available besides vending machine stuff, especially on nights they know they will have a lot of business and game running.

See to me those are not "Game Stores" those are stores where games are kind of an afterthought.

Even though that kind of store is nice that kind of store is few and far between.   Believe me, I have talked to many people and their experience meshes with mine.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt sounds more like you have had some bad game shops in your area, rather than there being something wrong with game shops as a concept. I've had some pretty good ones nearby, ones that really cater to their clientele. Some keep tossing about that game shops aren't places for gamers to socialize, but I have to wonder why not? Good bookstores have book clubs; good game shops should be places where gamers can game.

You dont need a game store to mingle.   You can get together for a game, create a game day where everyone meets and has a mini-con or even go to a con and mingle.   The only thing a game store provides is game space (I dont need it, I have plenty of places to play) and full priced games (I dont feel I am obligated to keep a game store open by paying full price), expecially when they did nothing to create the game.   If I am going to pay full price I am going to go to the game companies website and pay them directly so they get all the money.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAlso, I've personally known some shop owners. The best ones, which have not been in the minority, have been enthusiastic gamers themselves, and conscientiously tried to keep in touch with their customers' needs. Calling them leeches across the board is inaccurate.

Again what are they providing that I cannot find on the net?    

Quote from: ColonelHardissonNormally, when someone cites unnamed insiders, I pay it little heed. But in this case, I've read in various places about the plight of game shops. I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, if it leaves the good places intact or moves bad ones (or those thinking of opening a shop) to improve their services.

Fair enough.  Garth Michael-Skarka who creates games like Skull and Cross Bones and has worked on many more talks about it on his blog:

http://gmskarka.livejournal.com/141431.html#cutid1

Quote from: ColonelHardissonDespite the flip answers some give about how they go to bars or the like to socialize, I still see it as a negative for gamers to be given even less opportunity to mix with others of like interest. Game conventions draw the same kind of people that go to game shops. Most people go to conventions to be around other gamers, whether to game or to shoot the shit. Wise shop owners would pay heed to this.

There are plenty of conventions, they can go there to socialize.  They can go on the internet to find players and to buy items.

I have a comic book store that sells games and a full fledged game store that sells just games around me.  The people are nice (The people at the game-only store are a bit elitist- some are) and the stores are fine, but I could care less if either goes out of business.   I will only buy online because I save money and I dont need the game stores.   If they go out of business the hobby will continue without a hickup.

Quote from: Geek MessiahSee to me those are not "Game Stores" those are stores where games are kind of an afterthought.

Depends on what you mean by "afterthought." Having a diverse array of products to sell doesn't mean any of them are really given short shrift by a good shop owner.

Quote from: Geek MessiahEven though that kind of store is nice that kind of store is few and far between.   Believe me, I have talked to many people and their experience meshes with mine.

Well, I've talked to many people, and their experiences mesh with mine.

Quote from: Geek MessiahYou dont need a game store to mingle.   You can get together for a game,

Where? As I've said before, not everyone can simply invite a group home to game, especially if they're strangers, and public libraries and bookstores don't often set aside space for such things.

Quote from: Geek Messiahcreate a game day where everyone meets and has a mini-con

Again, where?

Quote from: Geek Messiahor even go to a con and mingle.

Cons don't occur that regularly.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThe only thing a game store provides is game space (I dont need it, I have plenty of places to play)

Then your experiences don't mesh well with anyone else's I've ever known, unless you're in school or rich.

Quote from: Geek Messiahand full priced games (I dont feel I am obligated to keep a game store open by paying full price),

Neither do I.

Quote from: Geek Messiahexpecially when they did nothing to create the game.   If I am going to pay full price I am going to go to the game companies website and pay them directly so they get all the money.

Regardless of what many who are online think, I would hazard a guess that the majority of gamers are either not online, or never use the internet for anything to do with gaming (and I'm specifically talking about pencil & paper RPGs). I still run across avid gamers who have no real idea that RPG gamers have such an active presence on the internet.

Quote from: Geek MessiahAgain what are they providing that I cannot find on the net?

I've already covered this. To boil it down - a place for gamers to actually get together and game. There sure seem to be a lot of people playing at the tables in various game shops I've been to across the country. Seems not everyone has free and easy space available to them.    

Quote from: Geek MessiahThere are plenty of conventions, they can go there to socialize.

I'm not sure what you mean by "plenty." If one relied on conventions to game, one would game very rarely.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThey can go on the internet to find players and to buy items.

Buying stuff is one thing. Meeting people on the internet? Kind of a crap-shoot. At least at a game shop, one can actually meet the person for real and use their spider-sense on 'em, and maybe ask others about the person. On the internet...you don't have either luxury.

Quote from: Geek MessiahI have a comic book store that sells games and a full fledged game store that sells just games around me.  The people are nice (The people at the game-only store are a bit elitist- some are) and the stores are fine, but I could care less if either goes out of business.   I will only buy online because I save money and I dont need the game stores.   If they go out of business the hobby will continue without a hickup.

Maybe. But I get the feeling that if the hobby goes that way, it'll end up being played mostly online.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonMaybe. But I get the feeling that if the hobby goes that way, it'll end up being played mostly online.

Or more likely someone will set up a really good resource (I am considering do so) that people will be able to use to find gamers and meet in person, have gamer meets and point to online stores with good reps to buy their games from.

Quote from: Geek MessiahOr more likely someone will set up a really good resource (I am considering do so) that people will be able to use to find gamers and meet in person, have gamer meets and point to online stores with good reps to buy their games from.

Out of curiosity, do you have any ideas about where such meet-ups could occur? I have nothing against them in principle, I just don't know where they'd take place

Quote from: ColonelHardissonOut of curiosity, do you have any ideas about where such meet-ups could occur? I have nothing against them in principle, I just don't know where they'd take place

They could happen at a persons house (I know it sounds weird but the group I gamed with that met online got together at one of the players house the first time and a couple times at my house.  That first game was the first time we had met eachother.   No problems what so ever.

If you check on Enworld there are a couple people having game meets at their houses.  So its being done outside of the game store.

I am sure libraries have rooms that you can reserve for free and you could have a meet at a conference room at a public libarary.

Those are the only ones that come to mind right now.  I  am sure I will come up with more.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonOut of curiosity, do you have any ideas about where such meet-ups could occur? I have nothing against them in principle, I just don't know where they'd take place

LARPers around where I am get together every Thurday at a downtown pub, dominating about half of the place.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenLARPers around where I am get together every Thurday at a downtown pub, dominating about half of the place.

Thats another good idea.  Although Larpers and drinking could be a bad thing (But then you can subsitute drinking with many different things and get the same result).

Quote from: Geek MessiahAlthough Larpers and drinking could be a bad thing

I firmly believe that, given that slightly over half of the LARPers hereabouts are female, and a good half of those are quite nice to look at, drinking and LARPers is a great thing.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI firmly believe that, given that slightly over half of the LARPers hereabouts are female, and a good half of those are quite nice to look at, drinking and LARPers is a great thing.

I have never in my life been jealous of anyone.  Until Now

I'm always amazed that the local game store thinks the best thing to put front and centre in their store window is a display of burnt out buildings for warhammer 40K.  Seriously a big blackened pile of destroyed model buildings.  To the average person it might look like Barbie and Ken had a fire and their dream house burnt down.  

How can a business owner think that's the best thing to put in their front window to encourage people to come into their store?

The Silver Snail in Toronto always has really great displays in the front window.  They make you want to go inside and see what the store is about.

Quote from: StuartI'm always amazed that the local game store thinks the best thing to put front and centre in their store window is a display of burnt out buildings for warhammer 40K.  Seriously a big blackened pile of destroyed model buildings.  To the average person it might look like Barbie and Ken had a fire and their dream house burnt down.  

How can a business owner think that's the best thing to put in their front window to encourage people to come into their store?

The Silver Snail in Toronto always has really great displays in the front window.  They make you want to go inside and see what the store is about.

Because Miniatures and Warhammer 40k is where they make their money, not on rpgs.