Quote from: Geek MessiahNot true at all.

What's not true?

Quote from: Geek MessiahI met a group that I gamed with (Until I moved, schedules conflicted, etc) in person and we all get together from talking on a website forum.

How did you meet this group? Where?

I think most people prefer face-to-face gaming. Certainly I'm aware that PbP is a substitute for face-to-face when one simply cannot find a group. But it's not an equal substitute. That's why game shops are important.  

Quote from: Geek MessiahWhen we gamed we had a really good time and it was sad that things fell apart (actually one person moved away).

True, that does suck. So how did you go about finding another face-to-face gaming group?

Quote from: Geek MessiahAs for someone who has never moved from where they were born, couldnt tell you what that is like.   I was born on the west coast and I am now on the east coast, moving many times.

I've moved several time myself, 3 times in the last 3 years alone. Finding new groups to game with face-to-face can be tough.

I've moved several times, as well, but I've never had much trouble finding/founding new groups. Usually I end up making friends with the same interests at work, and it just goes from there. This has happened several times. I'm back in College full time now, and if I can get in to grad school after I'm done, I'll have to move again; but I don't see any real problem finding another group at that point.  It probably wont happen over night though, but that's okay.  
If all else fails, something that might work is to go to the local con and sign up for a few games. Your bound to meet a few people from the area.

Quote from: AosI've moved several times, as well, but I've never had much trouble finding/founding new groups. Usually I end up making friends with the same interests at work, and it just goes from there. This has happened several times. I'm back in College full time now, and if I can get in to grad school after I'm done, I'll have to move again; but I don't see any real problem finding another group at that point.  It probably wont happen over night though, but that's okay.

Yeah, being in college makes it easier to find a group.
 

Quote from: AosIf all else fails, something that might work is to go to the local con and sign up for a few games. Your bound to meet a few people from the area.

I could see that working.

I've become a regular at the nearest game shop, a pretty good one. I go in, browse, and buy stuff. I don't usually talk to anybody, just like at any other store. The staff is pretty attentive, though, and began asking me within a few weeks if I'd be interested in any of the groups they had running there. The first time this happened was when I bought a d20 Modern book (I forget which one). I was asked if I wanted to run a game of it. I was also asked this about HackMaster, after buying a HackMaster book. The staff have volunteered the info as to what nights have what games running, and have directed me to the store's website for a schedule of events and such. This kinda surprised me, but it bespoke of how a game shop - a good game shop, with good employees - could be an important nexus point for gamers.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonHow did you meet this group? Where?

We met on rpg.net and then we got together and played face to face

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI think most people prefer face-to-face gaming. Certainly I'm aware that PbP is a substitute for face-to-face when one simply cannot find a group. But it's not an equal substitute. That's why game shops are important.

I understand the PbP is not a equal subsititute (though I know those who disagree).   My group met online and we played face to face in many different places.   We didnt require a game store to get together.  And the game stores I know of (the two) care more about miniatures (Because they make more money from them) then rpgs, so the miniatures gamers take up the table space.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonTrue, that does suck. So how did you go about finding another face-to-face gaming group?

A couple of people I work with are gamers and it went from there.  Again, a local game store contributed nothing.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI've moved several time myself, 3 times in the last 3 years alone. Finding new groups to game with face-to-face can be tough.

It can be.   It took me 2 years to find another local face to face group.   The problem is (and industry insiders are even saying it) that the gamer base is shrinking because people are moving to other things (such as world of warcraft, miniatures and the like).

If I were to lose the group I am with (which I doubt would happen unless I move) then I would simply sell off my game stuff and quit the hobby.   I was lucky to find the group I have now, and I almost quit before finding them.   Personally, if I have to wait 2 more years to find a group this hobby will become more trouble then its worth and I will just sell my stuff and move on to something else.

I definitely say the LGS is a relic of the past that needs to go.  Thinking about my own experiences, having a LGS around has always made it harder, not easier, to find other gamers to play with.  It's like they actively sap the energy from the hobby.  Historically, in the times when the area has been without a LGS, players have been very easy to find.  

Thankfully, RPGs are finally coming out of a dark age and are being stocked in major stores again.  I see them in Hastings, Barnes & Noble, and I've even seen a few of the D&D Basic sets in Target and Toys R Us (they're marked down to $7 and still don't sell because it's a shitty product that can't compare to everything else, but it's still there).  The ultimate goal should be trying to get a tiny section in Wal-Mart.

LGSes do nothing whatsoever to introduce people to gaming.  RPGs were so popular in the 80s because Sears, Kay Bee Toys, Toys R Us, Waldenbooks, and every other store carried the range of TSR games along with some ICE and maybe a few others.  That was why gaming was so big.  When those stores quit carrying RPGS, it was a foregone conclusion that RPGs would die.  And that's exactly what happened during the 90s, along with the rise of the LGS.  Showing just how worthless the LGS is, all they did was ride the hobby to the bottom, doing nothing to slow the fall.

Now, the internet is going to fill most of the functions of what a LGS hypothetically did, that is introduce a select few gamers to a wider array of stuff.  Stiggybaby and Nobleknight both have newsletters to advertise new stuff to customers.  I think they should take that a step beyond and make a sort of fanzine like the Dragon Magazine of old.  The old Dragon of the mid 80s cannot be underestimated.  It likely kept many people in the hobby during the time and broadened the overall range of the hobby.  It's sad that the current Dragon isn't even a shadow of that former greatness.

In any event, some online shop is probably going to eventually take the plunge and realize that a sort of fan-newsletter with product advertisements, articles, and reviews would be a good thing.

Frankly, I'm far too refined and sophisticated to hang out in some sweaty room above a shop full of weirdos talking about their 15th level Paladins.  My opinion of Local game shops is the same as my opinion of local book shops: burn them all and go buy stuff from Amazon.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalFrankly, I'm far too refined and sophisticated to hang out in some sweaty room above a shop full of weirdos talking about their 15th level Paladins.  My opinion of Local game shops is the same as my opinion of local book shops: burn them all and go buy stuff from Amazon.

Yeah, I'm not really happy with my stock in Amazon, either.  Novel approach to boost the stock price, though.  

Quote from: GabrielShowing just how worthless the LGS is, all they did was ride the hobby to the bottom, doing nothing to slow the fall.

Now, the internet is going to fill most of the functions of what a LGS hypothetically did, that is introduce a select few gamers to a wider array of stuff.  Stiggybaby and Nobleknight both have newsletters to advertise new stuff to customers.  I think they should take that a step beyond and make a sort of fanzine like the Dragon Magazine of old.  The old Dragon of the mid 80s cannot be underestimated.  It likely kept many people in the hobby during the time and broadened the overall range of the hobby.  It's sad that the current Dragon isn't even a shadow of that former greatness.

In any event, some online shop is probably going to eventually take the plunge and realize that a sort of fan-newsletter with product advertisements, articles, and reviews would be a good thing.

Totally agree.  The have been a leech on the hobby.   The Game stores and even the distributors make more money then the game companies and had nothing to do with the creation of the game.

Companies need to start selling directly to put via the internet.   Even if a book is usually $50 and you sell it for $40 (including shipping) you are still doing well.

Because if shipping a book is $5 then you still have made $35 in profit which is more then you would have made through the traditional channels.

To Vellorian :

Actually, that was partly my thinking.

"Mature market" my arse! Plenty of room for growth if we can just get rid of the competition.  You know what else I hate?  public libraries and free books for school kids... commies!  Won't someone PLEASE think of my dividends?!

Quote from: GabrielI definitely say the LGS is a relic of the past that needs to go.  Thinking about my own experiences, having a LGS around has always made it harder, not easier, to find other gamers to play with.  It's like they actively sap the energy from the hobby.  Historically, in the times when the area has been without a LGS, players have been very easy to find.

I don't know where you are, but that sure wasn't "historically" true in the places I've been. It was easy to find gamers when I was in school and college, but beyond that...? I've rarely seen a workplace that wasn't computer-focused that had even one gamer.

Quote from: GabrielThankfully, RPGs are finally coming out of a dark age and are being stocked in major stores again.  I see them in Hastings, Barnes & Noble, and I've even seen a few of the D&D Basic sets in Target and Toys R Us (they're marked down to $7 and still don't sell because it's a shitty product that can't compare to everything else, but it's still there).  The ultimate goal should be trying to get a tiny section in Wal-Mart.

Sure, that would help get new players into the hobby, I agree.

Quote from: GabrielLGSes do nothing whatsoever to introduce people to gaming.

Shitty LGSs do nothing, good LGSs do quite a bit.

Quote from: GabrielRPGs were so popular in the 80s because Sears, Kay Bee Toys, Toys R Us, Waldenbooks, and every other store carried the range of TSR games along with some ICE and maybe a few others.  That was why gaming was so big.

I don't think that's true. Most of those stores jumped on the bandwagon once RPGs got popular, and dropped them when the fad began to wane. In my experience, it was hobby shops and indy bookstores that got the hobby going.

Quote from: GabrielWhen those stores quit carrying RPGS, it was a foregone conclusion that RPGs would die.

Naw, it was a sign that RPGs were already losing popularity when those stores quit carrying them. Hate to say it, but RPGs, embodied by D&D, were a fad in the 1980s, and like any fad, it simply lost its grip on the national consciousness.

Quote from: GabrielAnd that's exactly what happened during the 90s, along with the rise of the LGS.  Showing just how worthless the LGS is, all they did was ride the hobby to the bottom, doing nothing to slow the fall.

Like any fad, there is very little that can be done once the fad fades. LGSs simply tried to squeeze what they could out of the fan base that remained after the fad went away. Good LGSs diversified what they carried, and became one-stop game stores that carried every type of game, game/comic shops, or genre shops that carried just about anything that was related to scifi and fantasy.

Quote from: GabrielNow, the internet is going to fill most of the functions of what a LGS hypothetically did, that is introduce a select few gamers to a wider array of stuff.

That I agree with. The internet is the best thing to happen to gaming. It lets gamers connect around the world and compare notes, it lets us have access to the thoughts of top designers, it lets us find obscure games we would never have had access to otherwise, and it lets us find games we heard about decades ago and never got a chance to lay hands on. But that doesn't obviate the usefulness of a good LGS (see what I've posted earlier for what I feel their function is).

Quote from: GabrielStiggybaby and Nobleknight both have newsletters to advertise new stuff to customers.  I think they should take that a step beyond and make a sort of fanzine like the Dragon Magazine of old.  The old Dragon of the mid 80s cannot be underestimated.  It likely kept many people in the hobby during the time and broadened the overall range of the hobby.  It's sad that the current Dragon isn't even a shadow of that former greatness.

Dragon definitely was a touchstone for the RPG hobby in the 80s. Content-wise, though, it's in another Golden Age right now. I don't think any print publication can compete with the internet on its own turf today, so it makes sense for Dragon to change its focus.

Quote from: GabrielIn any event, some online shop is probably going to eventually take the plunge and realize that a sort of fan-newsletter with product advertisements, articles, and reviews would be a good thing.

That would be a good thing.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonShitty LGSs do nothing, good LGSs do quite a bit.

You say this about LGS's bringing people into the hobby but I explained the people I know who game never learned from a FLGS.  Furthermore you said you didnt learn from a FLGS either.

So other then your wishful thinking I would like to see solid proof of that.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonBut that doesn't obviate the usefulness of a good LGS (see what I've posted earlier for what I feel their function is).

None of which is not also possiable by the internet.  The resources sure can improve but the LGS is obsolete and it's time is passing quickly

Quote from: Geek MessiahYou say this about LGS's bringing people into the hobby but I explained the people I know who game never learned from a FLGS.  Furthermore you said you didnt learn from a FLGS either.

Yeah, I'm 40 and began gaming in 1979. There were few, if any, real LGSs at that time, and none in my area. So pointing out that I, and people of my age range, didn't is pointless.

Quote from: Geek MessiahSo other then your wishful thinking I would like to see solid proof of that.

Seriously, if you're going to ask me for solid proof, you might want to back up your own arguments - or wishful thinking, to use your term - with it also. My evidence is as anecdotal as yours. I can simply say that I've asked people I know how they got into the hobby, and many of the 20-somethings say it was by getting hooked at a LGS, often enough by moving from card games to RPGs.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYou know what else I hate?  public libraries and free books for school kids... commies!  Won't someone PLEASE think of my dividends?!

Actually, private libraries were a viable commodity in days gone by, but they were all run out of business through "unfair competition" by public libraries.  The internet still has its version of the "private library", though it's usually a site that creates its own content and asks for a subscribtion to partake.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonSeriously, if you're going to ask me for solid proof, you might want to back up your own arguments - or wishful thinking, to use your term - with it also. My evidence is as anecdotal as yours. I can simply say that I've asked people I know how they got into the hobby, and many of the 20-somethings say it was by getting hooked at a LGS, often enough by moving from card games to RPGs.

So I guess on this point we will agree to disagree.   The LGS is going to go away and the hobby will survive just find without them.

The internet is taking over the majority if not all of the functions of the LGS and the LGS has no purpose in the hobby anymore.

The sooner the LGS and the broken 3 tier distribution system goes away the better off the hobby will be

Quote from: Geek MessiahSo I guess on this point we will agree to disagree.   The LGS is going to go away and the hobby will survive just find without them.

It might be insightful to know the general area where you're from. I'm from Ohio originally, near Cleveland, but I lived in Columbus and Dayton also. I'm still relatively new to the L.A. area.

Quote from: Geek MessiahThe internet is taking over the majority if not all of the functions of the LGS and the LGS has no purpose in the hobby anymore.

The sooner the LGS and the broken 3 tier distribution system goes away the better off the hobby will be

I just don't see what is inherently wrong with it. Human beings are gregarious by nature. Given that they like to gather together for the things they like - take sports bars for an example - I don't see why people have such a hard-on for the death of the LGS. I can see wanting the ones that are crappy to go away, but beyond that :shrug: