I thought it was generally considered that D&D has more in common with western frontiersmanship than Tolkien. It's cowboys with swords, wandering town to town solving problems and finding treasure.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: S'mon;1033690You're mixing up the 3e version of Wilderlands with the original. Although CSIO was always cosmopolitan. 3e Wilderlands used the 3e official rules for demographics hence those %s.

I have the original Judges Guild Wilderlands supplements, and there are demi-humans (and levelled NPCs) everywhere.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1033530How does one make a campaign setting less Tolkien?

Get your hands on the 1st edition Fiend Folio.  Use that as your sole source of monsters for your game.

When one looks at just the core story, I think the Tolkien influence is pretty clear. Background details can differ (i.e. what are the demographics of a city).  However, the core story is often a group of heroes (including human, elf, dwarf, halfling) - all wandering the landscape and engaging in different adventures. There are differences from Tolkien - but given the huge range possible within fantasy, I think that D&D is pretty close to Tolkien.

Fiction - Baum's The Land of Oz, Lovecraft's The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, Howard's Red Nails, and Tolkien's Lord of the Rings

RPGs - an Amber adventure, a D&D adventure, an Ars Magica adventure, and a Mouse Guard adventure

Among a wide range of fantasy, I think D&D and Tolkien are pretty close. Even without having elves and dwarves, I think the similarities can be pretty strong. If you have a tiefling wizard, dragonborn ranger, and gnome rogue going off through the wilderness to a dungeon, that still has a lot of similarities to Tolkien.

There's nothing wrong with Tolkien - and I've had a good time doing adventures closer to Tolkien - i.e. adventures in actual Middle Earth. Still, if the topic is getting away from Tolkien, I think there is a big range to go.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1033530How does one make a campaign setting less Tolkien? What are the styles and world building elements that make the westerns, pulps, Oz, etc unique from Tolkien clones?

Obviously, there isn't just a single way to make a campaign setting less like Tolkien. I'd toss out how to make a campaign setting more like L. Frank Baum. It would be difficult to do exactly like L. Frank Baum stories in D&D without completely upending the game, but one could easily have D&D adventures in a setting more like the film Oz The Great and Powerful, or the book Wicked.

The creatures and threats are different, certainly - but many of the more whimsical D&D creations could easily fit into an Oz-inspired setting. The bigger context of adventure, though, is also changed. There is no attempt to simulate a medieval or even non-medieval society. Rather than renting a room at the inn, there are friendly people who welcome you in and give you things. You're not adventuring for gold - you're trying to help. Even in Wicked, the protagonist is still trying to help - it just reverses who is in trouble.

The characters can be a wide mix, including Oz natives, people from Earth, as well as possibly some unique or "monster" PCs (lion, flying monkey, glass cat, etc.).  There is little focus on having a balance or mix of standard races, and special snowflakes are welcomed.

Quote from: Haffrung;1033696I have the original Judges Guild Wilderlands supplements, and there are demi-humans (and levelled NPCs) everywhere.

Then you know the villages are listed as "200 Orcs" and "120 Elves", and that those 32% Elf/16% Dwarf type stats are solely 3e.

Write down everything you associate with Tolkien.
Make a D&D setting without those things.

You can even keep the elves, dwarves and orcs if you want. Just make them not-LotR.

Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1033698Get your hands on the 1st edition Fiend Folio.  Use that as your sole source of monsters for your game.

I've done that with two multi-year campaigns. Both were awesome. The FF was the sole-source of everything not-human in the setting.

That book is awesome.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1033679I don't think Gildor was an elf lord like Glorfindel, and probably couldn't have done much to stop the nine ringwraiths, even with his elf buddies along. And if he tried, like you say, it would draw attention to the hobbits.

Gildor was a high elf and had crossed the seas from the undying lands in any case but probably wasn't on Glorfindel's level, even so, just shooing a couple hobbits away on their errand seems, weak.

Quote from: Haffrung;1033666Gondor had no elves or dwarves. Nobody even knew halflings existed. Same with Rohan. Elven communities were strictly elvish. Dwarves and elves had a deep distrust bordering on hatred. Running a D&D campaign in an authentic Middle-Earth would be a shock to most D&D players.

Right from the outset, D&D as a game setting was its own thing, with more new tropes different from any existing fantasy settings than it was like any one. Tolkien was an influence insofar as many D&D campaigns play out as a multi-race fellowship of the ring. But D&D game worlds don't have much resemblance to Middle-Earth, or any other fantasy setting.

The Elves had a deep distrust of their fellow elves, and in fact had a civil war, while journeying to Middle-Earth from Cuiviénen. The Avari never left Cuiviénen. The Nolder i.e. Calaquendi (Elves of the Light) considered themselves superior to all of the other Elven races, and this included the sons of Feanor and Fingolfin, and their kinfolk including the Half-elf, Elrond (Half-brother to the Numenoren Men). This also included the Vanyar. The Telari, also known as the hindmost, or followers... they the unwilling..... this including Galadriel by the way, were attacked by the Nolder i.e. Feanor and Fingolfin and their kin while enroute to Middle Earth, and then Feanor and his kin abandoned the Teleri, including all of the Sindar and the Nandor leaving them to freeze to death in the sea of ice. Many of the Sindar were saved by the Falmari, the sea elves, with their great swan boats, but many of the Falmari were also slain by the Nolder during the Kinslaying, and their boats were sunk, and the Falmari were super rare in Middle Earth after that, usually only showing up to help the Sindar or the Noldor.

The Teleri were the most numerous Elven clan and also the most slow and reluctant of the Great Journey; many turned back or stayed behind. Their leaders were the brothers Elwë and Olwë, but when Elwë became lost in Beleriand, many of his people refused to carry on to Aman until he had been found; it was Olwë who led the rest to the shores of Beleriand. Most of the Teleri went back to Valinor, but were never admitted again to Cuiviénen, birthplace of the Elves.

As they waited for Ulmo's floating island, they lingered at the Bay of Balar where they were befriended and taught by Ulmo's vassal, Osse. When Ulmo returned to take the bulk of the Teleri with Olwe to the West, Osse convinced some of them to forsake Valinor and stay behind with him. These afterwards became the Falathrim. During the latter part of the War of the Ring they could be found in Alqualondë, Tol Eressëa, and at the Grey Havens, and in and along the seacoast of the Blue Mountains, in Southern Gondor, as well as in Valinor.

Sindar (meaning "Grey People" or Grey Elves were Elves of Telerin descent who inhabited Beleriand. They were united under the King of Doriath Elu Thingol, and later his grandson Dior Eluchíl, and could be found at the Grey Havens and in the Blue Mountains west of the Shire during the War of the Ring.

One of the Teleri, of the silver-haired kindred of Olwë that would later become the Falmari, rose to lead them. He was named Lenwë, and led a great number of the Teleri south along the Great River, where they fell out of the histories for a long time. They called themselves the Nandor, and they loved water and green things. Under Lenwë they developed great knowledge and skill with herbs and living things, tree and beast alike. Their culture became very distinct.

The Nandor, also called the Laiquendi, who included the Silvan Elves (or "Wood-elves") and Green-elves, were one of the Telerin races of Elves. Like the Sindar, they were Úmanyar i.e. part of the Teleri who began the Great Journey but did not complete it. The Nandor were the original elven inhabitants of Middle-earth east of Beleriand, but eventually they also stretched out across the Blue Mountains, i.e. Ered Luin as well into Ossiriand. During the war of the Ring they could be found in Mirkwood, and in Lothlorien.

Nandor is a Quenya name, meaning "Those who go back. Out of the 144 unbegotten Elves to awaken at Cuiviénen, 82 chose to remain and thus became the forefathers of the Moriquendi, outnumbering the population of the Amanyar (Valinor).  The Nandor also known by many other names: the Host of Dân, the Wood-elves, the Wanderers, the Axe-elves, the Green Elves, the Brown Elves, the Hidden People.

There were also the Moriquendi, The Dark Elves, or Elves who had never seen the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The term "Dark Elf" seems to hold an additional special (not explained) meaning, as it is given as a special title of Eöl of Nan Elmoth. It is also used as an insult by the Sons of Fëanor to King Thingol (which is incorrect, since Thingol alone of the Sindar was reckoned under the Calaquendie, as he was the only Grey Elf to Journey to Valinor to see the light of the Two Trees, although he later returned to Middle Earth in the Third Age.

...So, the Elves of Middle Earth hated on each other quite a bit... although they usually united when dealing with other races.

D&D had many things not in common with Middle Earth, which required some significant adjustments to in order to play a Middle Earth Campaign using D&D. This included a magic system that made human Wizards very weak at low levels, and very powerful at high levels. D&D Elves had very low powered magics, and on the whole, they were far less powerful than humans, being capped (limited) to 4th level fighters, and 8th level magic users, and not being able to progress after that. In Middle Earth, the Elves were inherently magical, and had far more spells, and magic than the Humans, though they were matched in power by the Maiar, a race of Magic-users which included Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando. There were more Maiar though...  many more! Sauron was a fallen Maiar who followed the fallen Vala known as Melkor (Morgoth). The Maiar are a group of beings outwardly resembling Men but possessing much greater physical and mental power. They are also called the Istari, the Wise ones, by the Noldor.

The Maiar are "spirits whose being also began before the world, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree". In the Valaquenta, it is also written that many Maiar associated themselves with a Vala; for example, Ossë and Uinen, who ruled the Seas, acted under Ulmo, while Curumo, who came to be known in Middle-earth as Saruman, was with Aulë the Smith. Sauron also was with Aulë before being corrupted by Melkor.

Being of divine origin and possessing great power, the Maiar can wander the world unseen or shape themselves in fashion of Elves or other creatures; these "veils", called fanar in Quenya (High Elven), could be destroyed, but their true-being could not. Rarely did the Maiar adopt their visible forms to elves and man, and for that reason, very few of the Maiar have names in their tongues, and even the elves do not know how many of the Maiar exist.

Some say the Elves and the Magic-Users as well were gimped in D&D, because a certain guy named Gary, didn't like the fact that Tolkien Elves are inherently powerful magical beings. I just houseruled my home D&D game when running Middle Earth campaigns and fixed that tiny oversight. Also, Wizards can totally use swords in any of my D&D games, anytime they want. Just ...sayin.

Also, ...anyone seen Stormbringer lately? He vanished off of G+.

Want to make your setting less Tolkien? Make it more Medieval-Authentic! Buy Lion & Dragon!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1033932Buy Lion & Dragon!

Shameful!

Quote from: GameDaddy;1033773D&D had many things not in common with Middle Earth, which required some significant adjustments to in order to play a Middle Earth Campaign using D&D. This included a magic system that made human Wizards very weak at low levels, and very powerful at high levels. D&D Elves had very low powered magics, and on the whole, they were far less powerful than humans, being capped (limited) to 4th level fighters, and 8th level magic users, and not being able to progress after that. In Middle Earth, the Elves were inherently magical, and had far more spells, and magic than the Humans, though they were matched in power by the Maiar, a race of Magic-users which included Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando. There were more Maiar though...  many more! Sauron was a fallen Maiar who followed the fallen Vala known as Melkor (Morgoth). The Maiar are a group of beings outwardly resembling Men but possessing much greater physical and mental power. They are also called the Istari, the Wise ones, by the Noldor.

Middle Earth "magic" was quite different from D&D magic. Very few wizards chucked fireballs around in ME, whereas it's a common thing in D&D. Most elf magic was more about lore and intuition and communication and junk.

QuoteSome say the Elves and the Magic-Users as well were gimped in D&D, because a certain guy named Gary, didn't like the fact that Tolkien Elves are inherently powerful magical beings. I just houseruled my home D&D game when running Middle Earth campaigns and fixed that tiny oversight. Also, Wizards can totally use swords in any of my D&D games, anytime they want. Just ...sayin.

My 2nd ed houserule is that we use weapon proficiencies, and characters can take any WP they like, obeying the number of slots. Clerics have to use their allowed weapons, and thieves can't backstab with a halberd.
A wizard who wants to use a longsword just isn't going to be as good as a fighter even if he's proficient with it, so it doesn't affect much.

Something I've learned the hard way, is that if you do have your own campaign setting, or just a certain feel in mind, never allow open book character creation.  Not every race published, not every class published, and no, not even with re-skinning.  (I've tried reskinning, and it can work within limits, but it's not a silver bullet.)  I've seen Wheel of Time devolve into dungeon-crawling D&D, and high-flying wushu devolve into plate mail and sword foreigners, because the GMs wanted players and opened the book up to let them play what they want.  I even once saw a Savage Worlds steampunk campaign fail at feeling steampunk (!), because the GM threw the core book out without a setting document to channel character creation (and Savage Worlds should own steampunk).

This all goes down smoother if you also add or expand options unique to the setting.  If nothing else though, it's a useful pass/fail test - if someone says they want to play, but actually insist on making a character that just doesn't fit, it's a sign they haven't actually signed on to play the game you're offering after all.

That aside, I agree with most of the reading suggested above.  It is hard to get all your players to read much; some will, some won't, so the most I count on is maybe a short story.  I have seen GMs start a campaign with a movie night before character generation; sadly there's a shortage of good movies in the vein of Lieber, Moorcock or Anderson.  Howard of course is covered.

Primeval Thule is the best effort I've seen at making D&D feel less Tolkien without changing the player-side rules at all. Basically it gives everything a Kull/Conan/Elric patina.

Quote from: S'mon;1034214Primeval Thule is the best effort I've seen at making D&D feel less Tolkien without changing the player-side rules at all. Basically it gives everything a Kull/Conan/Elric patina.

Seconded.