Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMRomance stories work in many sorts of media but there's a basic problem with them in tabletop rpgs.  All romance scenes will inevitably focus on one or two characters with the rest of the characters not being able to be involved in any meaningful way.  That's fine in a TV show or movie with a main character but it doesn't really work in a tabletop rpg.  The one or two PCs involved in that romance story are involved while everyone else sit around waiting for it to be over.  Even if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out.  It won't happen once either.  For the romance to be meaningful at all, this would have to happen multiple times over an extended period.  I suspect that some players who want a romance story for their character are asking for that, at least in part, for this very reason.  They know it will force the spotlight on to them repeatedly and that's what they want.  They want to be the main character.  That's fine for a 1 on 1 game but most games involve a group of players who are all here to play not be audiences for your romance scenes.

Now making his  debut live on the repgsite, Zerocool ishere to disagree with this notion that romance scenes *cannot* work in tabletop games!

I disagree on this notion on two facts alone. 1. Players can easily grow in battle and in times of peace,  growing connections with one another is the whole point  of tabletop gaming. Not to mention for someone who has MANY posts here. I raise my eyes in bewilderment in this next coming  post. ...

Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMEven if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out

. If everyone is at a table, you should be willing to give the spotlight to particular players in a session, not so much that it is overwhelming, but if a romance sub-plot is a way to give spotlight, that shouldn't be an issue. Excelling in role playing after all, should be encouraged and rewarded. A GM should be able to articulate  how much they should shone the spotlight to what character (if necessary) and be able to tell if someone is trying to hog the spotlight.  Lastly, it shouldn't be that hard to at least give them a one-on-one session  that's off to the side.
Though I think we can all agree, I'm pretty sure everything I said is probably more (attempts) at useful advice than that gods forsaken book.  That's my two cents on GMing romance, Zer0 out.

Quote from: Elfdart on July 21, 2024, 11:39:06 PMCourting, romance, trim hunting and the like come up once in a while but I would never act it out in character. It's a matter of "the tavern wench invites [insert name of PC] to her room" or "Lady Summerisle and her guardian accept the marriage proposal from [insert name of PC]". There are in-game reasons for courting (a character really wants someone's lands and title, for example) and skirt-chasing (bars, clubs, public baths and whorehouses have always been goldmines for information), but play-acting it? That's just fucking weird.

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2024, 05:37:30 AMSame. Who is playing out sex scenes at a table that isnt a one-on-one session? WoD players?

Just to clarify here, "romance" isn't remotely the same as "sex scene".

I would never play out a sex scene, but I've played out romantic interaction. In genres like James Bond or Buffy the Vampire Slayer (and many others), there is constant witty banter that is suggestive or flirtatious. And when I'm running the James Bond 007 RPG or the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG, suggestive banter is part of the fun.

I played Anyanka (from the show) in a BtVS RPG one-shot at DunDraCon this spring, and I said a ton of inappropriate sexual references, because as a thousand-year-old demon in a teenage body, that's Anya's schtick, and it's funny.


Like with any aspect of play, some people might not like that sort of thing - it's a matter of taste. My point is just that casual dialog between romantic interests is a normal part of a lot of action/adventure media - from Conan to James Bond to Buffy and so forth.

Quote from: Zer0co00l on July 23, 2024, 05:59:08 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMRomance stories work in many sorts of media but there's a basic problem with them in tabletop rpgs.  All romance scenes will inevitably focus on one or two characters with the rest of the characters not being able to be involved in any meaningful way.  That's fine in a TV show or movie with a main character but it doesn't really work in a tabletop rpg.  The one or two PCs involved in that romance story are involved while everyone else sit around waiting for it to be over.  Even if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out.  It won't happen once either.  For the romance to be meaningful at all, this would have to happen multiple times over an extended period.  I suspect that some players who want a romance story for their character are asking for that, at least in part, for this very reason.  They know it will force the spotlight on to them repeatedly and that's what they want.  They want to be the main character.  That's fine for a 1 on 1 game but most games involve a group of players who are all here to play not be audiences for your romance scenes.

Now making his  debut live on the repgsite, Zerocool ishere to disagree with this notion that romance scenes *cannot* work in tabletop games!

I disagree on this notion on two facts alone. 1. Players can easily grow in battle and in times of peace,  growing connections with one another is the whole point  of tabletop gaming. Not to mention for someone who has MANY posts here. I raise my eyes in bewilderment in this next coming  post. ...

Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMEven if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out

. If everyone is at a table, you should be willing to give the spotlight to particular players in a session, not so much that it is overwhelming, but if a romance sub-plot is a way to give spotlight, that shouldn't be an issue. Excelling in role playing after all, should be encouraged and rewarded. A GM should be able to articulate  how much they should shone the spotlight to what character (if necessary) and be able to tell if someone is trying to hog the spotlight.  Lastly, it shouldn't be that hard to at least give them a one-on-one session  that's off to the side.
Though I think we can all agree, I'm pretty sure everything I said is probably more (attempts) at useful advice than that gods forsaken book.  That's my two cents on GMing romance, Zer0 out.

I can see that.  That is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.  I wouldn't develop something into explicit sexuality, though, or let the plays devolve a campaign into something like that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.

Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...

And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.

Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...

And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.

But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.

Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...

And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.

But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.

Which is coincidentally, the same problem with Furries. It doesn't bother people that they do the sexual fetish, it bothers people that they are constantly trying to proselytize and get others to join them. It is like a sexual Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 25, 2024, 12:34:08 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.

Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...

And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.

But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.

Which is coincidentally, the same problem with Furries. It doesn't bother people that they do the sexual fetish, it bothers people that they are constantly trying to proselytize and get others to join them. It is like a sexual Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door.

I've managed to make the Jehovah's Witness to stop knocking on my door... By being REALLY rude and threatening to denounce them (it's a crime here in México).

Somehow I doubt you can manage the woke or furries to stop injecting their degeneracy on your entertainment. Being rude only gets you branded as an istophobe.

 

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 25, 2024, 12:34:08 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.

Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...

And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.

But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.

Which is coincidentally, the same problem with Furries. It doesn't bother people that they do the sexual fetish, it bothers people that they are constantly trying to proselytize and get others to join them. It is like a sexual Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door.

I live in the fucked-up state of Florida, and I have never once had to deal with furries. You must be doing something to attract that crowd.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 25, 2024, 02:35:58 AMI live in the fucked-up state of Florida, and I have never once had to deal with furries.

It's too hot in Florida to be a furry.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.

I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.

On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.

Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.

I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.

On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.

Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.

Bolding mine.

This is something that can be worked with. People confusing love and lust and just release. Post combat release of tension by sex between party members is realistic as an in game justification. The reverse can also happen in that player characters or NPCs would not want to be touched at all. This could be a welcome subplot or an unwelcome distraction depending on the players at the table - definitely worth discussing in Session Zero.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 25, 2024, 10:10:16 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.

I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.

On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.

Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.

Bolding mine.

This is something that can be worked with. People confusing love and lust and just release. Post combat release of tension by sex between party members is realistic as an in game justification. The reverse can also happen in that player characters or NPCs would not want to be touched at all. This could be a welcome subplot or an unwelcome distraction depending on the players at the table - definitely worth discussing in Session Zero.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.

I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.

On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.

Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.

Childless, danger hair, gender confused & in a policule authors who know jack shit about romance, lasting relationships, commitment, fidelity or monogamy.

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMAlso, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.

How many such books are there? And how many do you know the content of?

Personally, I've never read or even skimmed a book just on romance in RPGs. I'm only aware of two - "How to GM Romance" (from the original post of this thread) and the _Book of Erotic Fantasy_ (2003). I've seen a minor sidebar on romance in a few games (like James Bond 007, Teenagers from Outer Space, Buffy) and GM advice books, but they tend to not say much.

I'm not sure what adventurer romance would really be like. Then again, there are parts of RPGs where realism is less important for my groups - like disease, or food, or wounds. In most games, I'd put romance as one of those. If the player wants, it's fine for them to ignore their PCs sexual urges and be unrealistically asexual.

Come to think of it, they could have used this as more of an incentive in the good old choose your own adventure gaming books, like fighting fantasy. It skips the awkwardness, but I don't know of a single one with romance. 😄

Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2024, 02:54:41 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMAlso, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.

How many such books are there? And how many do you know the content of?

Personally, I've never read or even skimmed a book just on romance in RPGs. I'm only aware of two - "How to GM Romance" (from the original post of this thread) and the _Book of Erotic Fantasy_ (2003). I've seen a minor sidebar on romance in a few games (like James Bond 007, Teenagers from Outer Space, Buffy) and GM advice books, but they tend to not say much.

I'm not sure what adventurer romance would really be like. Then again, there are parts of RPGs where realism is less important for my groups - like disease, or food, or wounds. In most games, I'd put romance as one of those. If the player wants, it's fine for them to ignore their PCs sexual urges and be unrealistically asexual.

There's a fair few out there. In addition to those two, there's "Love and Sex in the Ninth World" for Numenera and tons of fanmade guides and expansion books, like "GURPS - Sex", "Nymphology - Blue Magic" or "The Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge". In fairness, most of those are taking a crass, jokey approach to coming up with sex rules, and are more often than not meant to be a book you read for cheap laughs rather than a serious game supplement.

I was more thinking of stuff like the OP, "Kinks and Cantrips", homebrews like this and this, or the "Tome of Endless Romance" which occasionally turns up on the banner ads here. I don't buy these books, so I won't claim to have cover-to-covered them, but I do usually skim through free pdfs and quickstarts or watch reviews where they're available. My above comment was a case of observing a general trend and reading between the lines. Mentally insert "My impression is" at the beginning of the sentence if you like.

Talking about the mental state of D&D adventurers is necessarily speculative, because (as I never grow tired of pointing out) there isn't a historical or real-world analogue for that lifestyle. Personally I think the assumption that the adventuring life would attract well-adjusted and emotionally stable people --or allow them to remain that way-- is one of the bigger suspensions of disbelief involved in that style of fantasy gaming, and I'm fine with that. Yeah, you could run your tabletop campaign like "Darkest Dungeon", where the adventuring life is a traumatic meat-grinder that takes already desperate people, chews them up, and spits them out broken, maimed or dead, but it doesn't sound much fun to me.

Quote from: Trond on July 25, 2024, 04:46:49 PMCome to think of it, they could have used this as more of an incentive in the good old choose your own adventure gaming books, like fighting fantasy. It skips the awkwardness, but I don't know of a single one with romance

100%. People are way more willing to drop their defenses and engage with this kind of content privately or anonymously than they are in person. There's a reason why most ERP is done via chatrooms and message boards.