I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff. I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies. When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer. Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?
I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
Sword & sorcery (anti-)heroes tend to fit the D&D PC mold fairly well. They're traditionally outcasts or wanderers, who don't really fit in anywhere. While they often fight evil, they're motivated by base urges, like lust or a desire for gold, instead of selfless ones. The settings usually draw more from the ancient world than the medieval, though there are tons of exceptions (like the Puritan Solomon Kane). The stories tend to extol the virtues of physical strength, martial prowess, and fortitude over more intellectual pursuits, and usually portray things like civilization and magic as decadent and corrupt or corrupting.
If you're looking for inspiration, start with R.E. Howard's Conan stories. They're the archetype. Secondarily, try Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories, which are amazingly well written and one of the core inspirations for D&D. Burroughs' John Carter of Mars books are another good resource, taking the genre to a fantastic planet with wondrous tech, and are another direct inspiration of D&D. I wouldn't start with Moorcock's Elric because it's a deliberate subversion of the standard tropes, but it's also a good example of the genre once you have some of the others under your belt, and is especially notable for incorporating a lot of magic and cosmic events.
Quote from: Pat on June 26, 2021, 04:15:29 PM
Sword & sorcery (anti-)heroes tend to fit the D&D PC mold fairly well. They're traditionally outcasts or wanderers, who don't really fit in anywhere. While they often fight evil, they're motivated by base urges, like lust or a desire for gold, instead of selfless ones. The settings usually draw more from the ancient world than the medieval, though there are tons of exceptions (like the Puritan Solomon Kane). The stories tend to extol the virtues of physical strength, martial prowess, and fortitude over more intellectual pursuits, and usually portray things like civilization and magic as decadent and corrupt or corrupting.
If you're looking for inspiration, start with R.E. Howard's Conan stories. They're the archetype. Secondarily, try Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories, which are amazingly well written and one of the core inspirations for D&D. Burroughs' John Carter of Mars books are another good resource, taking the genre to a fantastic planet with wondrous tech, and are another direct inspiration of D&D. I wouldn't start with Moorcock's Elric because it's a deliberate subversion of the standard tropes, but it's also a good example of the genre once you have some of the others under your belt, and is especially notable for incorporating a lot of magic and cosmic events.
Motivated by base urges? That describes almost everyone I know. I know very few people who care to fight for selfless causes.
I like the ancient world stuff.
Honestly. With D&D and Pathfinder?
Get the players to read lots of Lieber and Howard. Maybe some Thieves World and some more modern stuff like Malazan Book of the Fallen (which is closer to D&D tropes).
And then check the players are into it. Then get the players to do everything they can to play that up.
Because with D&D or Pathfinder, short of rewriting the entire system, there ain't nothing you can do without massive player buy-in and a lot of effort from them.
If the players are trying to playing Sword and Sorcery characters then it can work. If they aren't or they don't get it, no amount of rules tweaks will help.
Without a supporting system it's not something that can flow from the gm side alone.
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff. I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies. When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer. Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?
I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
Get a copy of the Mongoose iteration of Conan. It was made on the 3.5 ruleset with some rules specific to the setting (most notably that everyone has a defensive bonus that works like attack bonus, and armor makes you harder to hurt, not harder to hit).
A quick and dirty is to make magic users very rare, and using magic not a casual event. Remove all non humans from availability as character classes, as well as no non humans in human society. magic items tend to be for very specific purposes, and have either corrupting influences or are dangerous to use. Make combat deadlier, Conan d20 had a massive damage threshold that triggered at 20 damage taken, given the higher damage of all weapons across the board, as well as the presence of rogues and sneak attacks, this happened quite a bit and required a check vs death (Difficulty being 10+1/2 dmg inflicted) to stay up. The setting tends to be a recovery from a fallen civilization, but D&D this is already the assumed history so not many changes there.
In many settings good and evil have a great deal of gray; or more precisely, wonderful, pure good *may* exist, but tales of even hearing about it can create a religion. Darkest evil most definitely exists. Alignment has no place IMO in a S&S setting, I know Conan used reputation and corruption to represent how others viewed you.
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game? I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this. So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible. Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.
Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe? If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough. If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.
Before you spend any money, much of the best S&S tales are free to read online. Start with this: http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/208/the-tale-of-satampra-zeiros
If you really want to use PF or 5e to do S&S then the essential setting and support (all free) are here: https://xoth.net/publishing/
But I would recommend a game shaped for Sword & Sorcery. I'm currently running a campaign of Crypts & Things, which is a simple OSR system. If you want a more complex system, there is Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria.
Quote from: Vidgrip on June 26, 2021, 07:20:14 PM
Before you spend any money, much of the best S&S tales are free to read online. Start with this: http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/208/the-tale-of-satampra-zeiros
If you really want to use PF or 5e to do S&S then the essential setting and support (all free) are here: https://xoth.net/publishing/
But I would recommend a game shaped for Sword & Sorcery. I'm currently running a campaign of Crypts & Things, which is a simple OSR system. If you want a more complex system, there is Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria.
I agree on the rules specific for it, or use a generic system with some Sword and Sorcery flavoring. I suggest Gurps Lite http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG31-0004 because it is free and with the relative danger of comat will do a pretty good job of emulating the genre (I do suggest building a beginner on 150 with 50 disad points though to represent a character that has been around the block already).
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 05:13:34 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 26, 2021, 04:15:29 PM
Sword & sorcery (anti-)heroes tend to fit the D&D PC mold fairly well. They're traditionally outcasts or wanderers, who don't really fit in anywhere. While they often fight evil, they're motivated by base urges, like lust or a desire for gold, instead of selfless ones.
Motivated by base urges? That describes almost everyone I know. I know very few people who care to fight for selfless causes.
"Jam the MF,
We're sorry to inform you that your application to join the Fellowship of the Ring has been rejected. Tweeting hopes and prayers doesn't show the selfless dedication needed to prevail against the Dark Lord.
-Elrond Half-Elven"
The focus on base motives is a contrast to traditional heroic fiction, including epic fantasies, Comics Code-era super heroes, and many other examples on film and television. Sword & sorcery, low fantasy, and so on are a reaction to and a contrast against the heroic narrative that prevailed for decades.
Comparing them to ordinary folk living ordinary lives is using the wrong measure. Because sword & sorcery heroes will often go to extraordinary lengths -- but it's generally not to save the day or rescue a stranger. There might be a girl involved, or vengeance, or a huge pile of treasure, or defending what's their's, or just the urge to do something no one else has done. Sheer determination, a sense of outraged personal justice, and personal ties are often involved.
I wouldn't want to try to run Sword and Sorcery style with a baseline D&D system, you're looking at banning a slew of classes, spells, magic items, etc. A lot of work.
Xoth is great if you want to run in 5e D&D. Good starting point to keep you and players on the same page.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game? I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this. So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible. Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.
Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe? If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough. If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.
Well.... I already own White Box FMAG, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, PF 1E, PF 2E Playtest, Lion & Dragon, DCC, and Dungeon World. A bunch of dead trees. I'd like to work from my current pile of dead trees, if possible. I can forbid feats and multiclassing. Perhaps forbid certain classes too?
Check out the AD&D Conan modules/setting set. This gives rules for trimming D&D down to play a straight-up swords-n-sorcery campaign. Alot of the classes are not allowed and its only human PCs. Also new rules for fear and horror.
Same can be done with 3e.
Theres also the Conan and Indiana Jones RPGs from TSR. Harder to find though.
Quote from: Omega on June 27, 2021, 01:33:32 AM
Theres also the Conan and Indiana Jones RPGs from TSR. Harder to find though.
A retroclone of the Conan RPG from TSR (ZeFRS) is available for free, or at cost for the print version:
https://sites.google.com/site/zefrsrpg/
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 08:42:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game? I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this. So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible. Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.
Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe? If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough. If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.
Well.... I already own White Box FMAG, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, PF 1E, PF 2E Playtest, Lion & Dragon, DCC, and Dungeon World. A bunch of dead trees. I'd like to work from my current pile of dead trees, if possible. I can forbid feats and multiclassing. Perhaps forbid certain classes too?
Why do you need to forbid them? Do the players know what you want to do? Are they onboard? If they are just discuss appropriate character concepts.
But my experience is that you can't really invoke the flavour of a particular genre by subtraction.
After all, Dudley Do Right the Fighter with a heart of gold who wants to travel the world and fight evil doesn't really work any better than Fuzzbuzzle the Gnome wizard.
I like Primeval Thule for running D&D (or PF) with a swords & sorcery tone - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/168149/Primeval-Thule-5e-Campaign-Setting
Free intro guide https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/129630/Primeval-Thule-Travelers-Guide?src=also_purchased
My Thule campaign blog https://simonsprimevalthule.blogspot.com/2019/01/primeval-thule-campaign.html
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff. I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies. When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer. Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?
I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
By using Mythras as a system.
Following that, Mongoose D20 Conan.
Following that, DCC Lankhmar, or DCC Tales from the Fallen Empire.
Following that, Astonishing Swords and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
Following that, Totems of the Dead for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Barbarians of Lemuria.
To this, add anything of Xoth by Thulsa (Morton Braten)
Haven't read Primeval Thule, so can't comment.
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 08:42:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game? I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this. So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible. Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.
Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe? If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough. If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.
Well.... I already own White Box FMAG, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, PF 1E, PF 2E Playtest, Lion & Dragon, DCC, and Dungeon World. A bunch of dead trees. I'd like to work from my current pile of dead trees, if possible. I can forbid feats and multiclassing. Perhaps forbid certain classes too?
I think with DCC and making wizards and clerics NPCs and removing demi humans you can make it happen with very little work. Honestly since you have less need for 'purity' to the genre, meaning you may be more familiar with the comic version of Conan versus the Howard version, you can probably just go with DCC as is, and remove demi humans.
I still say, IF you wanted to pull it off best for the system you have and use, get Mongoose Conan. It uses 3.5 and is by far IMO the best iteration of D20 for swords and sorcery I have seen.
Quote from: crkrueger on June 27, 2021, 06:17:57 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff. I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies. When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer. Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?
I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
By using Mythras as a system.
Following that, Mongoose D20 Conan.
Following that, DCC Lankhmar, or DCC Tales from the Fallen Empire.
Following that, Astonishing Swords and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
Following that, Totems of the Dead for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Barbarians of Lemuria.
To this, add anything of Xoth by Thulsa (Morton Braten)
Haven't read Primeval Thule, so can't comment.
I just got Mythras, and I am pretty impressed with it as a system for Swords and Sorcery. I would add to the list though, GURPS Conan along with Gurps lite. Though I dont know how hard that is to get these days, I thought they re released a pdf a few years ago.
For DnD 5e, I would say you need start with "5e: HARDCORE MODE" from Runehammer Games. Professor Dungeon Master does a good review of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZP92GaTb84
My second option is to play Dungeon Crawl Classics. Because as it says on the back of the rulebook:
"You're no hero. You're an adventurer: a reaver, a cutpurse, a heathen-slayer, a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets. You seek gold and glory, winning it with sword and spell, caked in the blood and filth of the weak, the dark, the demons, and the vanquished. There are treasures to be won deep underneath, and you shall have them."
That said, I don't know how successful you will be in getting players that are normalized to the high-fantasy, all PCs are above-average, lots of magic items, and PC death being nearly impossible, to buy into it. Best of luck.
This has become a good thread. Lots of good suggestions.
Regarding concerns about player buy in; I think it would work fine with either first time players, or else older players who have grown tired of super high fantasy. It's time for some mud and blood fantasy.
If I was going for a pulpy S&S feel in a Pathfinder setting, I'd probably start by ditching the Pathfinder system and trying out the Savage Worlds version.
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.
Snakes.
Add lots of snakes. Poisonous snakes. Giant poisonous snakes. Giant poisonous snake idols that are surrounded by cultists who writhe around in a big pile and get eaten by snake priests that turn into giant poisonous snakes. If you have a creepy giant poisonous spider or two, throw that in there as well.
Princesses and noblewomen who lie around in belly dancer outfits in a drug induced stupor.
All magic requires some sort of sacrifice, usually the lives of innocent people. Blood is what gives magic its "kick". Sorcerers are all weird and strangely repulsive, though they think themselves admired and/or respected or feared by "the lesser mortals".
Tie XP to the spending of gold on frivolities rather than its procurement.
Weird traps that turn one inside out—literally, or change one into some type of vermin.
Also, a friendly demon that has an elephant head.
In addition to the previously mentioned recommendations, try the animated film "Fire and Ice". It is free on YouTube.
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PMI have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
4e Dark Sun was very well done. Among the best 4e books.
Definitely all you need to run a S&S D&D game.
As for "what is S&S?", that's for you as the DM to decide and let your players know. The number of definitions I've seen bandied about online become so whackass and contradictory, even worse when "academics" babble about it.
Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.
I see Conan and Elirc more as NPCs than PCs, or as high-level PCs. And don't forget that Elric has an abnormally low Con and (iirc) a low Str, and that is is possession of Stormbringer that mitigates them.
Regardless, I agree that is it risk of death that ultimately matters. It just seems (to me) that is more difficult to do in high-power games, or in 5E. YMMV.
Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.
Conan does not start out high powered. He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck. I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character. I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it. That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan. This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top. I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery. All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like. The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king. This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 09:31:22 AM
Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.
Conan does not start out high powered. He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck. I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character. I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it. That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan. This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top. I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery. All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like. The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king. This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.
That first story gives him more than just
plot armor. It also shows how important wearing
real armor was to Conan, something ignored by generations of artists and game designers :-)
Quote from: Vidgrip on June 28, 2021, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 09:31:22 AM
Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.
Conan does not start out high powered. He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck. I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character. I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it. That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan. This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top. I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery. All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like. The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king. This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.
That first story gives him more than just plot armor. It also shows how important wearing real armor was to Conan, something ignored by generations of artists and game designers :-)
Mainly cause the frank frazetta art is just so iconic
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 28, 2021, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PMI have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
4e Dark Sun was very well done. Among the best 4e books.
Definitely all you need to run a S&S D&D game.
As for "what is S&S?", that's for you as the DM to decide and let your players know. The number of definitions I've seen bandied about online become so whackass and contradictory, even worse when "academics" babble about it.
I have the 4E Dark Sun monster book, but not the setting guide. Still though, I can grasp the hardness of the setting. I question where all of those life forms are finding enough water to survive, on Athas?
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 28, 2021, 04:21:39 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 28, 2021, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PMI have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
4e Dark Sun was very well done. Among the best 4e books.
Definitely all you need to run a S&S D&D game.
As for "what is S&S?", that's for you as the DM to decide and let your players know. The number of definitions I've seen bandied about online become so whackass and contradictory, even worse when "academics" babble about it.
I have the 4E Dark Sun monster book, but not the setting guide. Still though, I can grasp the hardness of the setting. I question where all of those life forms are finding enough water to survive, on Athas?
I think the official answer is "sorta over there, look there's a well".
More logically, there's two main answers that could apply. Where there's mountains they will collect moisture and have streams, a lot of these streams may end up running dry or underground, but a city like Tyr would probably be collecting it's water that way.
Apart from the you have to propose a giant source of underground water that can be tapped by wells and the like for irrigation. Something along the lines of the Great Artesian Basin in Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Artesian_Basin) (http://(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Artesian_Basin)) In Romans times there was a civilisation in the Sahara that basically mined it's water from a similar source (https://thinkafrica.net/the-garamantes-the-civilisation-that-mined-fossil-water-from-the-sahara-for-1000-years/) (http://(https://thinkafrica.net/the-garamantes-the-civilisation-that-mined-fossil-water-from-the-sahara-for-1000-years/))
Athas is a very hot, dry setting. Life is always a struggle to survive, except perhaps for the sorcerer kings. Still though, water is precious.
Quote from: Slambo on June 28, 2021, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Vidgrip on June 28, 2021, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 09:31:22 AM
Quote from: Premier on June 27, 2021, 08:51:18 PM
Just a quick note: while there is certainly nothing wrong with a game where you're an easily-killed dirty non-hero, sword & sorcery doesn't have to be about that. Conan is far beyond the abilities of most civilised men, and Elric of Melniboné is a powerful sorcerer and summoner. It's perfectly okay to have a high-power S&S game, as long as you also provide an opposition that remains a challenge to overcome.
Conan does not start out high powered. He survives his early adventures through his most prodigious ability, which is luck. I would not judge Sword and Sorcery based on Conan alone, as a character. I would look at the world he is living in, and how others fare in it. That is who the players are going to be, other people in that world, not the literal god among mortals made flesh that is Conan. This still leaves a lot of room for great competence and heroism, but I think teamwork and luck will still be needed (as there is not magical healing, other than that sweet golden wine) as well as brains to come out on top. I think the tone of being too easy killed a non hero is more the tone of 'grimdark' warhammer type games, and not sword and sorcery. All the same, I would not use Conan as my metric to what a competent player is going to look and perform like. The most important thing to remember about Conan, is the first story printed was him being attacked while already a king. This effectively gives him plot armor for every story that takes place before this.
That first story gives him more than just plot armor. It also shows how important wearing real armor was to Conan, something ignored by generations of artists and game designers :-)
Mainly cause the frank frazetta art is just so iconic
Yep, because if you have a Lambo, you drive it around you dont leave it in a closed garage. Sun's out, GUNS OUT.
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 28, 2021, 04:21:39 PMI have the 4E Dark Sun monster book, but not the setting guide. Still though, I can grasp the hardness of the setting. I question where all of those life forms are finding enough water to survive, on Athas?
Setting Guide is quite good and discusses this issue, but effectively, it's Dune.
Most creatures have adapted to needing little water, and those with less water needs survive longer, but for many creatures, they're living on the water in the meat of their kills. Also, the vast majority of what's living on Athas lives in shrinking "habitable" zone that still has ground water sources, though largely underground.
It makes water and rations into important currency.
I would just use Crypts and things for something simpler and astonishing swordsmen and soecerers of hyperborea for a game that's more advanced. If you're really committed to using pathfinder or 5E I'd pick up primeval thule while keeping in mind you'll likely need to modify some of the rules to steer things away from high fantasy.
I had an idea for a "Swords and Sorcery" type Pathfinder game, but I never used it. Basically it boiled down to:
No Darkvision for PCs
Unearthed Arcana rules for automatic advancement (to eliminate the Christmas tree for magic items)
Spontaneous Casters only (A sorcerer with weird powers, sure. Looking through the rule book to find the exact spell to deal with the situation at hand...no)
Enforced Encumbrance rules
This created a situation where PCs would have limited magic items- although all of them would mean something (no random plus whatevers), the dark was something that had to be dealt with spells and torches, and spellcasters would be ready right away- powerful but "Batman Magic" each having their own niche (Be it a Holy weirdo on the fringes of society, the guy who made a pact with a devil, or whatever).
But, it was only a theory, never got a chance to run it and I got sick of Pathfinder real quick in the longterm anyway.
Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 11:19:49 PM
No Darkvision for PCs
I've taken that one step further: Almost no creatures have dark vision. Some have a little better perception, which means they have a better shot at using sound and other senses to compensate. But not even the goblins, orcs, etc. have dark vision. Therefore, when you go down into their holes, they've got some kind of light sources already set up--at least at certain times and certain places.
I wanted it this way for two reasons: 1.) Creates a tactical situation around light for both sides. 2.) Makes the relatively rare creatures that do have dark vision (or other special senses) truly horrifying in the dark.
I've left a few light spells in the game, but they are not as powerful as modern D&D versions, less accessible, and casting them is a real cost.
Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition is the finest sword & sorcery game ever done, hands down.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 15, 2021, 07:07:32 AM
Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 11:19:49 PM
No Darkvision for PCs
I've taken that one step further: Almost no creatures have dark vision. Some have a little better perception, which means they have a better shot at using sound and other senses to compensate. But not even the goblins, orcs, etc. have dark vision. Therefore, when you go down into their holes, they've got some kind of light sources already set up--at least at certain times and certain places.
I wanted it this way for two reasons: 1.) Creates a tactical situation around light for both sides. 2.) Makes the relatively rare creatures that do have dark vision (or other special senses) truly horrifying in the dark.
I've left a few light spells in the game, but they are not as powerful as modern D&D versions, less accessible, and casting them is a real cost.
I did pretty similar in my own game; undead are the only category of creature to have full darkvision (all my undead also take damage from sunlight, not just vampires, and all are vulnerable to fire so it's very much a thematic "creatures of utter darkness" element).
I'm late but here's my advice:
1) It has to be "metal": High lethality, violence, a bit of brutality, swashbuckling, acrobatics, exaggerate a few things every now and then, and add a few grimdark features. Not necessarily pessimistic, though.
2) Adventurers, not heroes: Your characters aren't saving the world; most of them are looking for treasure and personal benefit. Consider that treasure = XP. They're not heroes so they have no moral obligation to do the right thing, but they're not expected to be immoral either.
3) Sorcery, not magic: Magic is not common, it's not flashy lights and hovering crystals and it's not "nice". Magic is a weird, arcane art which only a few, mad warlocks know. It's effects are not as flashy, flamboyant and obvious as "high fantasy" magic. Instead of talented teens snapping fingers and shooting "mana", you may have sorcerers who conjure spirits or demons to learn their spells in the darkness of their basements, alchemists who spend some time brewing potions, erudite astrologers who live like hermits in their high towers crafting talismans under the influence of a passing comet or a constellation, shamans that take substances to travel the astral plane, etc.
4) Keep it special, stupid: No freakshitting. Keep elves, dwarves, fairies and goblins rare or nonexistent. If you have them all at an inn drinking ale together, it loses the magic since they become mundane; simply different biological species. Magical objects have to be uncommon as well. Everybody remembers the name of "the" magic sword, but not the names of each one of the magic arrows. Supply & Demand.
5) The setting: It's common to find pulpy stories that take place in forgotten continents or weird planets: Lemuria, Hyperborea, Dreamlands, Zothique, Atlantis, Saturn, Barsoom, Gor, etc. Imagine a world full of ancient temples, monoliths, megaliths, city-states, sunken ruins, etc. Rust, moss, dust, etc.
6) Choice and freedom: Allow your players to choose and actually earn their treasure. No railroading, no linearity. Give them a few incentives every now and then to keep them hooked.
Quote from: SonTodoGato on July 30, 2021, 12:50:51 AM
2) Adventurers, not heroes: Your characters aren't saving the world; most of them are looking for treasure and personal benefit.
Taarna wasn't Metal? :o ;D
(https://actionagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/198590_1127518_8-759x500.jpg)
Now that's a strong, female lead I would totally watch.
Quote from: crkrueger on June 27, 2021, 06:17:57 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff. I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies. When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer. Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?
I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.
By using Mythras as a system.
Following that, Mongoose D20 Conan.
Following that, DCC Lankhmar, or DCC Tales from the Fallen Empire.
Following that, Astonishing Swords and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.
Following that, Totems of the Dead for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Beasts and Barbarians for Savage Worlds.
Following that, Barbarians of Lemuria.
To this, add anything of Xoth by Thulsa (Morton Braten)
Haven't read Primeval Thule, so can't comment.
You could not do better than this list, imo.
To run PF/Realms as S&S it's purely about enforcing scarcity and the reality of the world as it reacts to it. Make magic rare and dangerous. Where you want it plentiful - it's horded and supported by decadent and corrupt methods. Gold is hard to come by, unless you're willing to do crazy shit to get it. There are no "healing station" Temples. No Magic-Item shops. You need to enforce rule by the iron-fist of the State + the Pet Wizard. Or there is a Wizard king that by threat of horrifying magic keeps everyone in line.
When the PC's are out and about - the Environment gobbles up their resources. Food, water, supplies matter. The terrain matters. Playing the game is not *just* about playing the game loop of go to the dungeon, kill monsters, take gold - sure that exists but S&S is also about survival: both political and natural. And it's about the PC's going up against truly dark forces (and heroically whooping its ass, or die gloriously trying). It's about the clash of the primal with the civil and the primal winning by force of will and steel.
Go to the source:
"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king."
-ConanIt's about big wins and big losses. There is a tone that must be enforced - it's not Disney fantasy. It's dangerous, glorious, and deadly. It's dark and bloody and triumphant in spurts.
"Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet."It's filled with wonder of ancient secrets and lore unfathomable to the throng of mankind that scrabbles by. But the PC's are not such people. They have the power and will to wrest those secrets from the world. But you as a GM have to exemplify that history as an enigmatic promise just out of their reach. But it has to be attainable. The world in all its dark wonder has to entice them. That's your job as a GM.
"Know, O prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars - Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-haunted mystery, Zingara with its chivalry, Koth that bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom of the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west."The Realms has a long history that you can pull from, ignore all the modern shit and tempt them with the tombs of the ancient Empires that once rules over the Faerun. Keep magic rare, but powerful. Tweak it as you see fit. Personally I'd use a different system, but you don't have to. Just cut down on the disney-elements. And make everything come at a cost - especially magic.
And remember in S&S the Iron Law is always there.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."That is something that should be enforced - especially away from civilized areas, which D&D settings tend to do a crappy job of mostly because they're pulling from various time periods that don't necessarily mesh well with S&S conceits. But you can tweak that easily on the fly. Life is hard. But PC's can have it good if they're daring and fearless.
I can't say anything that hasn't already been said, but here's my two cents anyway. I'd recommend studying the Sword & Sorcery genre in detail to get a good idea of how it feels. Ideally you'd want to play a game already firmly set in the genre that provides built-in parameters and guidelines for doing so. D&D/PF is a weirdo mishmash of many different fantasy genres and as such is a piss-poor tool. Hyperborea, Glorantha, and similar settings are good choices.
Planetary Romance (aka Sword & Planet) has the same mood except scifi instead of fantasy. Tech and psychic powers replaces magic, and aliens replace fantasy races, but it's otherwise the same vibe. If you're not worried about splitting hairs, then that genre might work for you too. You can buy the Iron Lords of Jupiter articles on the Paizo website, and there are several variations of Barsoom/Mars, but aside from that I'm not aware of too many planetary romance settings.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 02:10:35 PM
I can't say anything that hasn't already been said, but here's my two cents anyway. I'd recommend studying the Sword & Sorcery genre in detail to get a good idea of how it feels. Ideally you'd want to play a game already firmly set in the genre that provides built-in parameters and guidelines for doing so. D&D/PF is a weirdo mishmash of many different fantasy genres and as such is a piss-poor tool. Hyperborea, Glorantha, and similar settings are good choices.
Planetary Romance (aka Sword & Planet) has the same mood except scifi instead of fantasy. Tech and psychic powers replaces magic, and aliens replace fantasy races, but it's otherwise the same vibe. If you're not worried about splitting hairs, then that genre might work for you too. You can buy the Iron Lords of Jupiter articles on the Paizo website, and there are several variations of Barsoom/Mars, but aside from that I'm not aware of too many planetary romance settings.
Totally agreed. Sword & Planet is also a fairly obscure genre. I recommend the Barsoom/Venus setting, Warriors of the Red Planet, Iron Lords of Jupiter, Gor, Star Adventurer (obligatory since otherwise the Pundit will ban me!!!!!), Planets of Peril, Dark Sun, Savage Mars, some of Clark Ashton Smith's works, Flash Gordon, early Star Wars, He-Man, Planet of Adventure, Viagens Interplanetarias, Transit to Scorpio, Leigh Brackett, etc. Remember OP, this is not "sci fi"; it's space opera, space swashbucklers. It's rayguns and space princesses, planetary warlords vs. high priests of Saturn, hawk-men from Planet X vs. four-armed albino apes in a giant colosseum.
I think one of the clearest signals you can give to the players that it isn't just another bog-standard fantasy game is to limit playable races to just one: human. There are humans and there are Others, and the Others are all evil. Better still if the demihumans are all removed entirely from the setting and the other intelligent non-humans are not even mammalian.
Quote from: Kiero on July 30, 2021, 04:46:19 PM
I think one of the clearest signals you can give to the players that it isn't just another bog-standard fantasy game is to limit playable races to just one: human. There are humans and there are Others, and the Others are all evil. Better still if the demihumans are all removed entirely from the setting and the other intelligent non-humans are not even mammalian.
I agree. In my game (DCC) for the first two years all PCs were human. I now have one dwarf PC. Which given that my game is set in the CSIO/Wilderlands of High Fantasy, the occasional dwarf PC isn't out-of-place.