Alright, I admit the title is clickbait. Bear with me, though. Stars Without Number is great. But honestly, having delved into the more traditional OSR games, I am starting to face some frustration. Right now, Basic Fantasy RPG is where I am most comfortable. And two things I don't miss from mainstream modern games are a dedicated skills system, and a dedicated feat system. Now that I appreciate how OSR games are actually supposed to be played, I increasingly find they just get in my way and slow everything down. No offense intended if you like these systems; I used to like them. In any case, has anyone tried ripping out skills and Foci from SWN? If this were to be done, what is the minimum number if levers that would need to be pulled to unbreak (or unbrake 😁) the system?
Look at StellaGamma's Quantum games, like Barbaric! 2E. No random chargen. A handful of skills, but no abilities. It's simple and works well. Some won't care for the missing 6 abilities scores.
I forgot Stars Without Number is a d20/OSR. I saw complicated rules, too many skills, and of course thought Traveller.
Alternatively, if you want to stick with d20 and six attributes, I'd just look at Star Adventurer. Not sure I see the point of playing Star Without Number while removing most of the skills and related stuff.
So I think the best answer to what you're looking for is actually Cepheus Engine De-lux by Stellagamma. It's a slightly reduced version of Cepheus Engine while being fully compatible with most other Cepheus supplements. It's also very versatile and you can add to it without breaking it.
It's a Stat + Skills system where PC development is improving your skills. If you wanted to add feats, there's a few ways to do that smoothly. This should accommodate everything you've expressed here.
I'm a big fan of scifi games and honestly Cepheus Engine is the best I've found.
You may want to look at my Majestic Fantasy Basic Rule here, it has a skill system that should work quite well with Basic Fantasy. I been using it my own campaigns for over a decade.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2009.pdf
If you like it then you may want to take a look at the published version which cleaned up.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/337515/The-Majestic-Fantasy-RPG-Basic-Rules
You can fix Stars Without Number by playing either Cepheus Engine or Traveller.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 09:41:35 AM
Alright, I admit the title is clickbait. Bear with me, though. Stars Without Number is great. But honestly, having delved into the more traditional OSR games, I am starting to face some frustration. Right now, Basic Fantasy RPG is where I am most comfortable. And two things I don't miss from mainstream modern games are a dedicated skills system, and a dedicated feat system. Now that I appreciate how OSR games are actually supposed to be played, I increasingly find they just get in my way and slow everything down. No offense intended if you like these systems; I used to like them. In any case, has anyone tried ripping out skills and Foci from SWN? If this were to be done, what is the minimum number if levers that would need to be pulled to unbreak (or unbrake 😁) the system?
Just drop the universal skills and make them Class-based skills or abilities. Pretty simple. Certain skill being only available to certain classes. With class-based you can embrace the Proficiency bonus as it makes each class more distinct in regard to power balance. Not that there's any real balance in rpgs because there isn't. But you can get close enough to shut the powergamers up.
Everybody recomending either a different game or how to add skills to Basic Fantasy when the OP want's to EXCISE Skills and Foci from SWN.
I honestly never ran SWN, WWN or CWN, but I don't think the game will break if you cut those out. Now, someone with experience on those might chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're lucky maybe Kevin Crawford himself will drop by to give his two cents.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 03:20:48 PM
Everybody recomending either a different game or how to add skills to Basic Fantasy when the OP want's to EXCISE Skills and Foci from SWN.
I honestly never ran SWN, WWN or CWN, but I don't think the game will break if you cut those out. Now, someone with experience on those might chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're lucky maybe Kevin Crawford himself will drop by to give his two cents.
Ah, damn, I miss understood. OP if this is correct then your answer is ICRPG. You don't need to completely jump systems, just take the parts from ICRPG that work for you and graft them onto SWN. As they are both based in D&D, it's not much work.
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 03:20:48 PM
Everybody recomending either a different game or how to add skills to Basic Fantasy when the OP want's to EXCISE Skills and Foci from SWN.
I honestly never ran SWN, WWN or CWN, but I don't think the game will break if you cut those out. Now, someone with experience on those might chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're lucky maybe Kevin Crawford himself will drop by to give his two cents.
Ah, damn, I miss understood. OP if this is correct then your answer is ICRPG. You don't need to completely jump systems, just take the parts from ICRPG that work for you and graft them onto SWN. As they are both based in D&D, it's not much work.
OP wasn't 100% clear. I saw references to too many rules and too complex rules. And complex skill structures. (And whatever the foci was.) So I recommended a simpler 2d6 system that seemed to cover the differences requested.
Use SWN1E and drop the skills.
Just remembered that SWN1E is desc AC, but Basic Fantasy is asc AC. Which may be a problem, or may not.
Quote from: Aglondir on November 20, 2023, 06:07:18 PM
Use SWN1E and drop the skills.
I was going to suggest using SWN 1E as well. The skill system is 2D6, and is pretty basic. But if you rip it out, you lose the Expert class. At that point, play a Cepheus game like others have suggested.
Quote from: BadApple on November 20, 2023, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 03:20:48 PM
Everybody recomending either a different game or how to add skills to Basic Fantasy when the OP want's to EXCISE Skills and Foci from SWN.
I honestly never ran SWN, WWN or CWN, but I don't think the game will break if you cut those out. Now, someone with experience on those might chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're lucky maybe Kevin Crawford himself will drop by to give his two cents.
Ah, damn, I miss understood. OP if this is correct then your answer is ICRPG. You don't need to completely jump systems, just take the parts from ICRPG that work for you and graft them onto SWN. As they are both based in D&D, it's not much work.
I just had a thought. Is Stars Without Number a d20 or a 2d6 system? I own it. I've read it but never played. And I have a horrible memory. LOL Go me!
Edit to Answer: d20 with 6 attributes.
I'd try Star Adventurer if you want a d20/6-attribute system. Stellagamma Cepheus Light or Cepheus Quantum for lighter and lightest 2d6 systems.
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 03:20:48 PM
Everybody recomending either a different game or how to add skills to Basic Fantasy when the OP want's to EXCISE Skills and Foci from SWN.
I honestly never ran SWN, WWN or CWN, but I don't think the game will break if you cut those out. Now, someone with experience on those might chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're lucky maybe Kevin Crawford himself will drop by to give his two cents.
That would be awesome if the good Cardinal did. I know the sales pitch is partially being B/X-derived. Trying to make it more B/X-like doesn't seem out of the spirit of the game completely.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.
Okay, here's a thought:
Just don't use the skill lists or foci, any time a PC wants to do something have them roll against the relevant Attribute.
d20 + Modifiers vs Relevant Attribute roll under.
Another way to do it would be to roll vs a TN.
d20 + Modifiers vs Target Number roll over.
Target Numbers
Very easy (0)
Easy (5)
Average (10)
Tough (15)
Challenging (20)
Formidable (25)
Grueling (30)
Edited to add:
As for using SWN 1st edition and descending armour class....
https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/07/16/armour-class-ac-conversion-between-osr-dd-systems/ (https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/07/16/armour-class-ac-conversion-between-osr-dd-systems/)
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.
Do you want skills gone or simplified?
Is there something missing from something like Star Adventurer by just dropping the skills entirely?
For a simple list, use the seven skills from Stellagama's Quantum Starfarer: Combat, Knowledge, Physical, Social, Space, Stealth, and Technical.
So much of Stars Without Number is the stuff you don't want, it seems overkill to keep using that system. Does something like White Star have too much extraneous stuff? (I don't own a copy to check.)
ETA: Geeky Bugle's suggestion above is the "just drop the stuff you don't want and use a simple skill system" which are pretty standard and either method suggested should work fine.
Quote from: Tod13 on November 20, 2023, 08:20:27 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.
Do you want skills gone or simplified?
Is there something missing from something like Star Adventurer by just dropping the skills entirely?
For a simple list, use the seven skills from Stellagama's Quantum Starfarer: Combat, Knowledge, Physical, Social, Space, Stealth, and Technical.
So much of Stars Without Number is the stuff you don't want, it seems overkill to keep using that system. Does something like White Star have too much extraneous stuff? (I don't own a copy to check.)
ETA: Geeky Bugle's suggestion above is the "just drop the stuff you don't want and use a simple skill system" which are pretty standard and either method suggested should work fine.
Ideally gone. I like Stars Without Number's generic setting quite a lot. The tools, terminology, as well as a number of the subsystems seem to work to my liking. As for White Star, I haven't tried it. In general, I like my space faring gaming to be more like Classic Traveller in theme, and less like Star Wars. Neither totally gonzo space opera nor completely hard sci fi either.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 08:09:51 PM
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.
Okay, here's a thought:
Just don't use the skill lists or foci, any time a PC wants to do something have them roll against the relevant Attribute.
d20 + Modifiers vs Relevant Attribute roll under.
Another way to do it would be to roll vs a TN.
d20 + Modifiers vs Target Number roll over.
Target Numbers
Very easy (0)
Easy (5)
Average (10)
Tough (15)
Challenging (20)
Formidable (25)
Grueling (30)
Edited to add:
As for using SWN 1st edition and descending armour class....
https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/07/16/armour-class-ac-conversion-between-osr-dd-systems/ (https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/07/16/armour-class-ac-conversion-between-osr-dd-systems/)
Thanks for the ideas. I will think both over.
Rolling back to SWN 1e and simplifying further was my first thought also, but I see has already been suggested.
Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 09:41:35 AM
Right now, Basic Fantasy RPG is where I am most comfortable.
Could you run BFRPG on the player side, with SWN for ships and the GM tools? I don't know Basic Fantasy well enough to say if that works.
The more I think about it though, the more I think "no skill system at all" is a big hurdle in a sci fi game. It seems to call for some way to decide who's the pilot, who's the engineer, who's the ship's doctor, who's the "fixer," even if you keep skills broad and few rather than many and narrow.
Could handle skills by background or ship role rather than individually, but SWN is partway there already.
Wild card idea - Castles and Crusades' infamous Siege Engine mechanic might fit what you're looking for. In-class or in-background rolls have a lower target number plus you add your level to your roll, while out-of-class or out-of-background rolls have a higher target number and don't add level. While everybody ended up fiddling with the exact target numbers C&C published, the idea is sound.
They even had a science fiction version called StarSiege, although it never gained traction, and you might not even need it to steal the basic mechanic.
Wild card #2 - In the abstract I'm tempted to recommend Whitehack to you, but then that would take a little work to sci fi up, and then I still have an idea you're looking for something else, if keeping SWN as a base is the strong option.
I always thought the two faults of Stars Without Number were the overly wordy writing style of the author, and the psionics that struggle to represent a Jedi type character.
The first one is just a personal preference of mine. I don't like long rulebooks. The second one is rectified when the nice people on this forum let me know about the supplemental book called Codex of the Black Sun. It's an expansion book of additional mystic classes, including traditional Vancian spell casters, and my favorite, "The Sunblade Class" <dramatic music plays>. Yay, space swords deflecting ranged weapon shots. Now we're talking.
As others suggested, simplifying Stars Without Numbers is a hard one. I also think the easiest solution is to start suggesting competitor games. You already asked us to not do that, so I won't.
The easiest skill system I can think of is Backgrounds. Some games like Olde Swords Reign get by by just having a single profession like sailor or noble. You don't need a long skill list. You just need to roll dice to do things like picking a lock (typically by rolling under an attribute), and if you can convince the GM that your background ought to give you a benefit, then add a bonus to the roll somehow (like taking your level, decide by 2, round up, and add that to your attribute).
In my example, let's say my background is an aerospace technician, my intelligence is 12, and I am level-5. I want to sabotage a flying car in this sci-fi world, so I convince my GM that my background would apply. Instead of rolling an 12 or less to succeed, I need to roll a 14 or less.
So the best rules light space opera rules sets I know are, ICRPG, Black Star, and Cepheus Light. I'm not particularly a fan of Cepheus Light because I feel it's a little too stripped down.
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.
BFRPG has an optional "challenge test" that can replace skills.
My own system if I wasn't using skills would be something like:
Roll 1d20, add (ability+level)/2, Target 20.
Thieves roll 1d20, add (ability/2)+level, Target 20 for their skills; you can do the same for rangers, etc.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/10/you-cant-solve-bx-skills-and-checks.html
Foci are feats (IIRC), if you don't want them, don't use them, I'd say.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.
Chris,
I agree that SWN 2E is not OSR. There's just enough modern design elements to put it over the edge, which is a good thing in my book. I did a post on this years ago.
But I consider SWN 1E OSR.
Adding the Trauma mechanic from Cities without Number would be a decent edition.
But honestly, I'm with Jeff; I'd rather just use the setting and random tables with Traveller rules (I mean, with the 2D6+skill level you're like 50% there already)
If we're just shouting out good rules-lite science fiction games, then "Warpstar!" deserves a look-in. But that is an explicitly and irrevocably skills-based game.
Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but if you're going to cut the skill system out of SWN, mightn't you just as well play any other OSR game? I thought the porting of a traveler-esque skill system into the D&D framework was SWN's party piece.
EDIT: if you want a sci fi OSR game with a much more minimal skill system, you might have a look at "Machinations of the Space Princess" by "Grim" Jim Desborough.
SECOND EDIT: Removed part of the first edit, which was pointless.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.
I admit have had my own doubts about that basic point too. The Revised Edition claims on page 1, "Stars Without Number belongs to the "old-school renaissance" trend in gaming, and draws much of its mechanical inspiration from the classic games of the seventies..." Of course, that raises the question, how close does a system need to be to those old systems in order to qualify as OSR. These days, I am increasingly tempted by a stricter definition mostly centered around retroclones, which are a lot easier to define. Much else claiming the title seems like it could be better described with hyphenated terms like OSR-derived, OSR-adjacent, etc. I could be wrong.
Quote from: Aglondir on November 20, 2023, 06:16:04 PM
Just remembered that SWN1E is desc AC, but Basic Fantasy is asc AC. Which may be a problem, or may not.
Nah, not a problem. Converting a number from DAC to AAC isn't hard. I just prefer not to think in DAC; it always feels like driving to work in reverse.
I'd keep searching for a new game and just use the setting and world building tools from SWN. That being said, I've never played a sci-fi game without a skill list. You might try one of the sci-fi versions of The Black Hack. I see Space Hack and Extinction mentioned in searches. Not certain whether they have skills but probably worth checking out. Monolith might be worth a look. It's a rules-lite game based on Into the Odd and Cairn. I don't see the word "skills" in its table of contents.
This is the most puzzling SWN thread I've ever read.
"Hey, how can I get rid of the core mechanics for SWN? Don't suggest any other game though."
Like SWN has three classes baseline, and varying levels of access to skills are the only reason the expert even exists. Without skills, no one wants to be Geordi La Forge because either the warp core will never break or all the mag rifle specialists can fix it just fine, and you drop the number of effective classes described in the first book from six to three, and it's basically "how fighty are you" versus "how psychic are you". You also lose the ability to have rules for all the crazy stuff science fiction games get into when they aren't blasting things, such as running companies, exfiltrating data, and infiltratting gangs.
That's why everyone is suggesting you yank fantasy classes from some other game. Everything in SWN is built around these assumptions. You know another big one? The way attribute modifiers work. You have a 14 Dex, great, you have a +1 to hit on a d20, that's a flat 5% improvement, and you also add in your combat SKILL (you know, the thing you are removing), such as, say, Stab-2, so you get +3 on the d20 to hit. But if you are sneaking around, now you have that same +1 from Dex and are using your Sneak-2 skill, now you have a +3 on 2d6. That's much more impactful, and the triangle distribution is much better. You assign a DC of 14 to something that is almost impossible, you assign a DC of 6 to something that is very simple for someone with a bit of expertise in the topic and possible for someone normal. It's pretty much why people use SWN, and playing a science fiction games without skills just seems nuts unless your whole team is space marines.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.
Yeah. SWN is pushing it a bit. I would need to know SWN better to say is OSR or not. To me an OSR is a D&D clone. Six attributes, armor class, and ever increasing hit points as you level up.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.
In development and when it released, it grew out of the OSR movement as it existed at the time. I don't even recall any discussion at the time as to whether it was "trve OSR" enough, it never even came up.
Whether it should now properly be classed as OSR taxonomically is an entirely separate question, and I wouldn't argue with someone who said it shouldn't. But, that's how we got to the point where it could be called OSR, by history not taxonomy.
Similar to Dungeon Crawl Classics, really. Properly and taxonomically DCC lacks some defining features of an OSR game, yet it grew out of the OSR as it existed at that time.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 22, 2023, 06:09:39 PM
Yeah. SWN is pushing it a bit. I would need to know SWN better to say is OSR or not. To me an OSR is a D&D clone. Six attributes, armor class, and ever increasing hit points as you level up.
I mean if that's your requirements, then SWN 100% qualifies. The addition of a skill subset from Traveler is what would make it impure as a pure D&D clone, of course.
Quote from: Dave 2 on November 22, 2023, 08:45:14 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.
In development and when it released, it grew out of the OSR movement as it existed at the time. I don't even recall any discussion at the time as to whether it was "trve OSR" enough, it never even came up.
Whether it should now properly be classed as OSR taxonomically is an entirely separate question, and I wouldn't argue with someone who said it shouldn't. But, that's how we got to the point where it could be called OSR, by history not taxonomy.
Similar to Dungeon Crawl Classics, really. Properly and taxonomically DCC lacks some defining features of an OSR game, yet it grew out of the OSR as it existed at that time.
Stars Without Numbers 1e and 2e:Emphasis on GM rulings instead of over-legislated RPG rules.
An understanding that player skill was as important or more important than character abilities/skills.
Relatively high lethality at lower levels, and an "evolving relationship with violence" (Kevin Crawford's words) at higher levels.
Deliberate, and sometimes frustrating, ambiguity of wording in rules-as-written that allow for different interpretations of rules.
6 attributes, HP, AC, levels and character classes with very simple baseline abilities and niche protection.
Emphasis on player-driven sandbox play, which isn't necessarily OSR, but is certainly a major trend.
What's not-quite-a-D&D-clone:Customizable character abilities (foci) that are much more character-defining than 3.0 feats, but don't force characters into build trees.
Non-Vancian psychic powers in the main rulebook (they get added in later a later supplement)
Shock damage (2e) which makes melee combat a lot scarier than you anticipate it being.
Warriors are the best at combat, even at high levels.
Traveller 2d6-style skills.
Quote from: Venka on November 22, 2023, 04:09:04 PM
This is the most puzzling SWN thread I've ever read.
"Hey, how can I get rid of the core mechanics for SWN? Don't suggest any other game though."
Like SWN has three classes baseline, and varying levels of access to skills are the only reason the expert even exists. Without skills, no one wants to be Geordi La Forge because either the warp core will never break or all the mag rifle specialists can fix it just fine, and you drop the number of effective classes described in the first book from six to three, and it's basically "how fighty are you" versus "how psychic are you". You also lose the ability to have rules for all the crazy stuff science fiction games get into when they aren't blasting things, such as running companies, exfiltrating data, and infiltratting gangs.
That's why everyone is suggesting you yank fantasy classes from some other game. Everything in SWN is built around these assumptions. You know another big one? The way attribute modifiers work. You have a 14 Dex, great, you have a +1 to hit on a d20, that's a flat 5% improvement, and you also add in your combat SKILL (you know, the thing you are removing), such as, say, Stab-2, so you get +3 on the d20 to hit. But if you are sneaking around, now you have that same +1 from Dex and are using your Sneak-2 skill, now you have a +3 on 2d6. That's much more impactful, and the triangle distribution is much better. You assign a DC of 14 to something that is almost impossible, you assign a DC of 6 to something that is very simple for someone with a bit of expertise in the topic and possible for someone normal. It's pretty much why people use SWN, and playing a science fiction games without skills just seems nuts unless your whole team is space marines.
Yes, it's very puzzling if someone completely misses the blatant implication that this is a hypothetical first.
"..has anyone tried ripping out skills and Foci from SWN? If this were to be done..."
If pharmacologists are testing for a new application for drug x, they aren't necessarily interested in drug y being in that same trial.
So the pieces you have left are the classes, the equipment, and the combat rules. The classes aren't much at all here, as much of what they are are phrased in terms of foci and skills. Further, you basically just have two classes, whereas B/X has several- regular XWN provides this with foci and skills, after all. The equipment is good and serviceable in similar games, and then you have the combat rules, which are also just fine, but they were also written to be able to be modified by, again, the stuff that was stripped out.
Then there's all the setting and everything else, and all of the other things that Sine Nomine openly advertises as system neutral. But you don't need any help to pull those things out, everyone knows they work pretty good everywhere else.
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2023, 02:58:45 PM
You can fix Stars Without Number by playing either Cepheus Engine or Traveller.
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.
Meaning the setting (spike drive, post-Scream), the GM tools, or both?
How'd it go?
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.
Details! I'm interested in hearing more!
Quote from: Dave 2 on November 28, 2023, 07:16:56 AM
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.
Meaning the setting (spike drive, post-Scream), the GM tools, or both?
How'd it go?
Yes - I knocked up a setting and just went for it. The SWN setting has nothing that cannot be translated to SW. It went well.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on November 28, 2023, 11:14:54 PM
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.
Details! I'm interested in hearing more!
What exactly? A campaign outline? Will do when I get off work.
Story behind it was our regular group showed up to play our DnD5e game and we all looked at each other and said - we are bored with this shit. So we decided to to scifi and I volunteered to run it. Thought about using Traveller because I am very familiar with all incarnations of that game but on a whim we decided on SW. So we downloaded the SWADE rules., made characters (never seen the rules before) and started a session within an hour. Started as a ragtag group of bounty hunters/mercs/petty crims all with the "Wanted" hindrance and took it from there. After first session I actually read the rules and got more familiar with them and decided on a setting. I had just got SWN so thought that background would work. Entire campaign was off the cuff.
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 29, 2023, 04:17:50 PM
What exactly? A campaign outline? Will do when I get off work.
Story behind it was our regular group showed up to play our DnD5e game and we all looked at each other and said - we are bored with this shit. So we decided to to scifi and I volunteered to run it. Thought about using Traveller because I am very familiar with all incarnations of that game but on a whim we decided on SW. So we downloaded the SWADE rules., made characters (never seen the rules before) and started a session within an hour. Started as a ragtag group of bounty hunters/mercs/petty crims all with the "Wanted" hindrance and took it from there. After first session I actually read the rules and got more familiar with them and decided on a setting. I had just got SWN so thought that background would work. Entire campaign was off the cuff.
Cool. Less the campaign, and more about the specifics of the mechanics, ship designs, etc. Were you using all the SWADE rules for ships (with the scifi companion from SW Deluxe, I guess), or making something more homebrew? Closer to the SWN rules/setting assumptions?
It's really hard to get rid of the "feat" system because Foci are really part of the "class" system. You take certain foci, you're a barbarian; different ones, you're a gunslinger; different ones, you're a bounty hunter. Even without skills, that's just so integral. And they aren't feats in the sense you get lots of them. You don't.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on November 29, 2023, 08:30:27 PM
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 29, 2023, 04:17:50 PM
What exactly? A campaign outline? Will do when I get off work.
Story behind it was our regular group showed up to play our DnD5e game and we all looked at each other and said - we are bored with this shit. So we decided to to scifi and I volunteered to run it. Thought about using Traveller because I am very familiar with all incarnations of that game but on a whim we decided on SW. So we downloaded the SWADE rules., made characters (never seen the rules before) and started a session within an hour. Started as a ragtag group of bounty hunters/mercs/petty crims all with the "Wanted" hindrance and took it from there. After first session I actually read the rules and got more familiar with them and decided on a setting. I had just got SWN so thought that background would work. Entire campaign was off the cuff.
Cool. Less the campaign, and more about the specifics of the mechanics, ship designs, etc. Were you using all the SWADE rules for ships (with the scifi companion from SW Deluxe, I guess), or making something more homebrew? Closer to the SWN rules/setting assumptions?
I winged it with ships for the most part. Used SW Scifi Companion and decided that the best ships could manage Spike 3. I also used fixed spike lines so changed that part of the rules for my setting. Weapons and armour I pretty much winged it extrapolating from the weapons available in the SWADE core book and the Scifi Companion. I mean a grav-shear rifle from the Terran mandate error would do like 3d10 or something huge.
I used SWN to generate planets and cultures for the most part.
Like I said - I mostly winged it. One thing I did introduce which was awesome for this game was using the SW adventure deck. That created so many great situations and plot twists.
My sector
Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 30, 2023, 12:43:00 AM
I winged it with ships for the most part. Used SW Scifi Companion and decided that the best ships could manage Spike 3. I also used fixed spike lines so changed that part of the rules for my setting. Weapons and armour I pretty much winged it extrapolating from the weapons available in the SWADE core book and the Scifi Companion. I mean a grav-shear rifle from the Terran mandate error would do like 3d10 or something huge.
I used SWN to generate planets and cultures for the most part.
Like I said - I mostly winged it. One thing I did introduce which was awesome for this game was using the SW adventure deck. That created so many great situations and plot twists.
Cool. Thank you. I've been seriously considering moving my SWN setting over to Savage Worlds in a new campaign. I guess really the only stuff that needs work is the gear/weapons/armour, ships, psychic powers, and some of the creatures... So, not a titanic effort, but definitely not something I'm prepared to improvise.
The SW Adventure Deck is pretty cool. I plan on using it in a SWN pulp campaign I'm running... I just discovered that it exists.