This is the most puzzling SWN thread I've ever read.

"Hey, how can I get rid of the core mechanics for SWN?  Don't suggest any other game though."

Like SWN has three classes baseline, and varying levels of access to skills are the only reason the expert even exists.  Without skills, no one wants to be Geordi La Forge because either the warp core will never break or all the mag rifle specialists can fix it just fine, and you drop the number of effective classes described in the first book from six to three, and it's basically "how fighty are you" versus "how psychic are you".  You also lose the ability to have rules for all the crazy stuff science fiction games get into when they aren't blasting things, such as running companies, exfiltrating data, and infiltratting gangs.

That's why everyone is suggesting you yank fantasy classes from some other game.  Everything in SWN is built around these assumptions.  You know another big one?  The way attribute modifiers work.  You have a 14 Dex, great, you have a +1 to hit on a d20, that's a flat 5% improvement, and you also add in your combat SKILL (you know, the thing you are removing), such as, say, Stab-2, so you get +3 on the d20 to hit.  But if you are sneaking around, now you have that same +1 from Dex and are using your Sneak-2 skill, now you have a +3 on 2d6.  That's much more impactful, and the triangle distribution is much better.  You assign a DC of 14 to something that is almost impossible, you assign a DC of 6 to something that is very simple for someone with a bit of expertise in the topic and possible for someone normal.  It's pretty much why people use SWN, and playing a science fiction games without skills just seems nuts unless your whole team is space marines.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.

It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.

Yeah.  SWN is pushing it a bit.  I would need to know SWN better to say is OSR or not.  To me an OSR is a D&D clone.  Six attributes, armor class, and ever increasing hit points as you level up. 

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.

In development and when it released, it grew out of the OSR movement as it existed at the time. I don't even recall any discussion at the time as to whether it was "trve OSR" enough, it never even came up.

Whether it should now properly be classed as OSR taxonomically is an entirely separate question, and I wouldn't argue with someone who said it shouldn't. But, that's how we got to the point where it could be called OSR, by history not taxonomy.

Similar to Dungeon Crawl Classics, really. Properly and taxonomically DCC lacks some defining features of an OSR game, yet it grew out of the OSR as it existed at that time.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 22, 2023, 06:09:39 PM
Yeah.  SWN is pushing it a bit.  I would need to know SWN better to say is OSR or not.  To me an OSR is a D&D clone.  Six attributes, armor class, and ever increasing hit points as you level up.

I mean if that's your requirements, then SWN 100% qualifies.  The addition of a skill subset from Traveler is what would make it impure as a pure D&D clone, of course.

Quote from: Dave 2 on November 22, 2023, 08:45:14 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.

In development and when it released, it grew out of the OSR movement as it existed at the time. I don't even recall any discussion at the time as to whether it was "trve OSR" enough, it never even came up.

Whether it should now properly be classed as OSR taxonomically is an entirely separate question, and I wouldn't argue with someone who said it shouldn't. But, that's how we got to the point where it could be called OSR, by history not taxonomy.

Similar to Dungeon Crawl Classics, really. Properly and taxonomically DCC lacks some defining features of an OSR game, yet it grew out of the OSR as it existed at that time.

Stars Without Numbers 1e and 2e:
Emphasis on GM rulings instead of over-legislated RPG rules.
An understanding that player skill was as important or more important than character abilities/skills.
Relatively high lethality at lower levels, and an "evolving relationship with violence" (Kevin Crawford's words) at higher levels.
Deliberate, and sometimes frustrating, ambiguity of wording in rules-as-written that allow for different interpretations of rules.
6 attributes, HP, AC, levels and character classes with very simple baseline abilities and niche protection.
Emphasis on player-driven sandbox play, which isn't necessarily OSR, but is certainly a major trend.

What's not-quite-a-D&D-clone:
Customizable character abilities (foci) that are much more character-defining than 3.0 feats, but don't force characters into build trees.
Non-Vancian psychic powers in the main rulebook (they get added in later a later supplement)
Shock damage (2e) which makes melee combat a lot scarier than you anticipate it being.
Warriors are the best at combat, even at high levels.
Traveller 2d6-style skills.

Quote from: Venka on November 22, 2023, 04:09:04 PM
This is the most puzzling SWN thread I've ever read.

"Hey, how can I get rid of the core mechanics for SWN?  Don't suggest any other game though."

Like SWN has three classes baseline, and varying levels of access to skills are the only reason the expert even exists.  Without skills, no one wants to be Geordi La Forge because either the warp core will never break or all the mag rifle specialists can fix it just fine, and you drop the number of effective classes described in the first book from six to three, and it's basically "how fighty are you" versus "how psychic are you".  You also lose the ability to have rules for all the crazy stuff science fiction games get into when they aren't blasting things, such as running companies, exfiltrating data, and infiltratting gangs.

That's why everyone is suggesting you yank fantasy classes from some other game.  Everything in SWN is built around these assumptions.  You know another big one?  The way attribute modifiers work.  You have a 14 Dex, great, you have a +1 to hit on a d20, that's a flat 5% improvement, and you also add in your combat SKILL (you know, the thing you are removing), such as, say, Stab-2, so you get +3 on the d20 to hit.  But if you are sneaking around, now you have that same +1 from Dex and are using your Sneak-2 skill, now you have a +3 on 2d6.  That's much more impactful, and the triangle distribution is much better.  You assign a DC of 14 to something that is almost impossible, you assign a DC of 6 to something that is very simple for someone with a bit of expertise in the topic and possible for someone normal.  It's pretty much why people use SWN, and playing a science fiction games without skills just seems nuts unless your whole team is space marines.

Yes, it's very puzzling if someone completely misses the blatant implication that this is a hypothetical first.

"..has anyone tried ripping out skills and Foci from SWN? If this were to be done..."

If pharmacologists are testing for a new application for drug x, they aren't necessarily interested in drug y being in that same trial.

So the pieces you have left are the classes, the equipment, and the combat rules.  The classes aren't much at all here, as much of what they are are phrased in terms of foci and skills.  Further, you basically just have two classes, whereas B/X has several- regular XWN provides this with foci and skills, after all.  The equipment is good and serviceable in similar games, and then you have the combat rules, which are also just fine, but they were also written to be able to be modified by, again, the stuff that was stripped out.

Then there's all the setting and everything else, and all of the other things that Sine Nomine openly advertises as system neutral.  But you don't need any help to pull those things out, everyone knows they work pretty good everywhere else.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 20, 2023, 02:58:45 PM
You can fix Stars Without Number by playing either Cepheus Engine or Traveller.

I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.

Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.

Meaning the setting (spike drive, post-Scream), the GM tools, or both?

How'd it go?

Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM


I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.

Details!  I'm interested in hearing more!

Quote from: Dave 2 on November 28, 2023, 07:16:56 AM

Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.

Meaning the setting (spike drive, post-Scream), the GM tools, or both?

How'd it go?

Yes - I knocked up a setting and just went for it.  The SWN setting has nothing that cannot be translated to SW.  It went well.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on November 28, 2023, 11:14:54 PM

Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 27, 2023, 11:04:37 PM


I ran a Stars Without Number campaign using Savage Worlds.

Details!  I'm interested in hearing more!

What exactly? A campaign outline? Will do when I get off work.

Story behind it was our regular group showed up to play our DnD5e game and we all looked at each other and said - we are bored with this shit. So we decided to to scifi and I volunteered to run it. Thought about using Traveller because I am very familiar with all incarnations of that game but on a whim we decided on SW. So we downloaded the SWADE rules., made characters (never seen the rules before) and started a session within an hour. Started as a ragtag group of bounty hunters/mercs/petty crims all with the "Wanted" hindrance and took it from there. After first session I actually read the rules and got more familiar with them and decided on a setting. I had just got SWN so thought that background would work. Entire campaign was off the cuff.   

Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 29, 2023, 04:17:50 PM


What exactly? A campaign outline? Will do when I get off work.

Story behind it was our regular group showed up to play our DnD5e game and we all looked at each other and said - we are bored with this shit. So we decided to to scifi and I volunteered to run it. Thought about using Traveller because I am very familiar with all incarnations of that game but on a whim we decided on SW. So we downloaded the SWADE rules., made characters (never seen the rules before) and started a session within an hour. Started as a ragtag group of bounty hunters/mercs/petty crims all with the "Wanted" hindrance and took it from there. After first session I actually read the rules and got more familiar with them and decided on a setting. I had just got SWN so thought that background would work. Entire campaign was off the cuff.   

Cool. Less the campaign, and more about the specifics of the mechanics, ship designs, etc. Were you using all the SWADE rules for ships (with the scifi companion from SW Deluxe, I guess), or making something more homebrew? Closer to the SWN rules/setting assumptions?

It's really hard to get rid of the "feat" system because Foci are really part of the "class" system. You take certain foci, you're a barbarian; different ones, you're a gunslinger; different ones, you're a bounty hunter. Even without skills, that's just so integral. And they aren't feats in the sense you get lots of them. You don't.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on November 29, 2023, 08:30:27 PM

Quote from: Woolshedwargamer on November 29, 2023, 04:17:50 PM


What exactly? A campaign outline? Will do when I get off work.

Story behind it was our regular group showed up to play our DnD5e game and we all looked at each other and said - we are bored with this shit. So we decided to to scifi and I volunteered to run it. Thought about using Traveller because I am very familiar with all incarnations of that game but on a whim we decided on SW. So we downloaded the SWADE rules., made characters (never seen the rules before) and started a session within an hour. Started as a ragtag group of bounty hunters/mercs/petty crims all with the "Wanted" hindrance and took it from there. After first session I actually read the rules and got more familiar with them and decided on a setting. I had just got SWN so thought that background would work. Entire campaign was off the cuff.   

Cool. Less the campaign, and more about the specifics of the mechanics, ship designs, etc. Were you using all the SWADE rules for ships (with the scifi companion from SW Deluxe, I guess), or making something more homebrew? Closer to the SWN rules/setting assumptions?

I winged it with ships for the most part. Used SW Scifi Companion and decided that the best ships could manage Spike 3.  I also used fixed spike lines so changed that part of the rules for my setting.  Weapons and armour I pretty much winged it extrapolating from the weapons available in the SWADE core book and the Scifi Companion. I mean a grav-shear rifle from the Terran mandate error would do like 3d10 or something huge.

I used SWN to generate planets and cultures for the most part.

Like I said - I mostly winged it. One thing I did introduce which was awesome for this game was using the SW adventure deck. That created so many great situations and plot twists.