Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.

Okay, here's a thought:

Just don't use the skill lists or foci, any time a PC wants to do something have them roll against the relevant Attribute.

d20 + Modifiers vs Relevant Attribute roll under.

Another way to do it would be to roll vs a TN.

d20 + Modifiers vs Target Number roll over.

Target Numbers
Very easy (0)
Easy (5)
Average (10)
Tough (15)
Challenging (20)
Formidable (25)
Grueling (30)

Edited to add:

As for using SWN 1st edition and descending armour class....

https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/07/16/armour-class-ac-conversion-between-osr-dd-systems/

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.

Do you want skills gone or simplified?

Is there something missing from something like Star Adventurer by just dropping the skills entirely?

For a simple list, use the seven skills from Stellagama's Quantum Starfarer: Combat, Knowledge, Physical, Social, Space, Stealth, and Technical.

So much of Stars Without Number is the stuff you don't want, it seems overkill to keep using that system. Does something like White Star have too much extraneous stuff? (I don't own a copy to check.)

ETA: Geeky Bugle's suggestion above is the "just drop the stuff you don't want and use a simple skill system" which are pretty standard and either method suggested should work fine.

Quote from: Tod13 on November 20, 2023, 08:20:27 PM

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.

Do you want skills gone or simplified?

Is there something missing from something like Star Adventurer by just dropping the skills entirely?

For a simple list, use the seven skills from Stellagama's Quantum Starfarer: Combat, Knowledge, Physical, Social, Space, Stealth, and Technical.

So much of Stars Without Number is the stuff you don't want, it seems overkill to keep using that system. Does something like White Star have too much extraneous stuff? (I don't own a copy to check.)

ETA: Geeky Bugle's suggestion above is the "just drop the stuff you don't want and use a simple skill system" which are pretty standard and either method suggested should work fine.

Ideally gone. I like Stars Without Number's generic setting quite a lot. The tools, terminology, as well as a number of the subsystems seem to work to my liking. As for White Star, I haven't tried it. In general, I like my space faring gaming to be more like Classic Traveller in theme, and less like Star Wars. Neither totally gonzo space opera nor completely hard sci fi either.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 08:09:51 PM

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 08:03:00 PM
I appreciate the attempts. I appear to have been woefully vague. The goal is specifically to avoid skill lists, in addition to feats/foci. That is, I want to actually take advantage of the fact that OSR games are class and level based, and use the basic system to its core strengths. I respect Traveller, and its derivatives. I have a copy of the Fascimile edition of CT on my shelf now. But I increasingly find skill lists unnecessarily limiting for the way I like to run and play games. Again, thanks for the help. Also, GeekyBugle and Theory of Games get bonus points.

Okay, here's a thought:

Just don't use the skill lists or foci, any time a PC wants to do something have them roll against the relevant Attribute.

d20 + Modifiers vs Relevant Attribute roll under.

Another way to do it would be to roll vs a TN.

d20 + Modifiers vs Target Number roll over.

Target Numbers
Very easy (0)
Easy (5)
Average (10)
Tough (15)
Challenging (20)
Formidable (25)
Grueling (30)

Edited to add:

As for using SWN 1st edition and descending armour class....

https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/07/16/armour-class-ac-conversion-between-osr-dd-systems/

Thanks for the ideas. I will think both over.

Rolling back to SWN 1e and simplifying further was my first thought also, but I see has already been suggested.

Quote from: RulesLiteOSRpls on November 20, 2023, 09:41:35 AM
Right now, Basic Fantasy RPG is where I am most comfortable.

Could you run BFRPG on the player side, with SWN for ships and the GM tools? I don't know Basic Fantasy well enough to say if that works.

The more I think about it though, the more I think "no skill system at all" is a big hurdle in a sci fi game. It seems to call for some way to decide who's the pilot, who's the engineer, who's the ship's doctor, who's the "fixer," even if you keep skills broad and few rather than many and narrow.

Could handle skills by background or ship role rather than individually, but SWN is partway there already.

Wild card idea - Castles and Crusades' infamous Siege Engine mechanic might fit what you're looking for. In-class or in-background rolls have a lower target number plus you add your level to your roll, while out-of-class or out-of-background rolls have a higher target number and don't add level. While everybody ended up fiddling with the exact target numbers C&C published, the idea is sound.

They even had a science fiction version called StarSiege, although it never gained traction, and you might not even need it to steal the basic mechanic.

Wild card #2 - In the abstract I'm tempted to recommend Whitehack to you, but then that would take a little work to sci fi up, and then I still have an idea you're looking for something else, if keeping SWN as a base is the strong option.

I always thought the two faults of Stars Without Number were the overly wordy writing style of the author, and the psionics that struggle to represent a Jedi type character. 

The first one is just a personal preference of mine.  I don't like long rulebooks.  The second one is rectified when the nice people on this forum let me know about the supplemental book called Codex of the Black Sun.  It's an expansion book of additional mystic classes, including traditional Vancian spell casters, and my favorite, "The Sunblade Class" <dramatic music plays>.  Yay, space swords deflecting ranged weapon shots.  Now we're talking. 

As others suggested, simplifying Stars Without Numbers is a hard one.  I also think the easiest solution is to start suggesting competitor games.  You already asked us to not do that, so I won't.   

The easiest skill system I can think of is Backgrounds.  Some games like Olde Swords Reign get by by just having a single profession like sailor or noble.  You don't need a long skill list.  You just need to roll dice to do things like picking a lock (typically by rolling under an attribute), and if you can convince the GM that your background ought to give you a benefit, then add a bonus to the roll somehow (like taking your level, decide by 2, round up, and add that to your attribute).   

In my example, let's say my background is an aerospace technician, my intelligence is 12, and I am level-5.  I want to sabotage a flying car in this sci-fi world, so I convince my GM that my background would apply.   Instead of rolling an 12 or less to succeed, I need to roll a 14 or less. 

So the best rules light space opera rules sets I know are, ICRPG, Black Star, and Cepheus Light.  I'm not particularly a fan of Cepheus Light because I feel it's a little too stripped down.

While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.

It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.

BFRPG has an optional "challenge test" that can replace skills.

My own system if I wasn't using skills would be something like:

Roll 1d20, add (ability+level)/2, Target 20.

Thieves roll 1d20, add (ability/2)+level, Target 20 for their skills; you can do the same for rangers, etc.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/10/you-cant-solve-bx-skills-and-checks.html

Foci are feats (IIRC), if you don't want them, don't use them, I'd say.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.

It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.

Chris,

I agree that SWN 2E is not OSR. There's just enough modern design elements to put it over the edge, which is a good thing in my book. I did a post on this years ago.

But I consider SWN 1E OSR.

Adding the Trauma mechanic from Cities without Number would be a decent edition.
But honestly, I'm with Jeff; I'd rather just use the setting and random tables with Traveller rules (I mean, with the 2D6+skill level you're like 50% there already)

If we're just shouting out good rules-lite science fiction games, then "Warpstar!" deserves a look-in. But that is an explicitly and irrevocably skills-based game.

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but if you're going to cut the skill system out of SWN, mightn't you just as well play any other OSR game? I thought the porting of a traveler-esque skill system into the D&D framework was SWN's party piece.

EDIT: if you want a sci fi OSR game with a much more minimal skill system, you might have a look at "Machinations of the Space Princess" by "Grim" Jim Desborough.

SECOND EDIT: Removed part of the first edit, which was pointless.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 21, 2023, 08:47:11 AM
While it's certainly possible to strip stuff out, I would suggest the starting mistake is the presumption that SWN is an OSR system, because other than some very surface level details (random chargen), I find it features a lot more modern design sensibilities and even borrows a few bits from 4E (particularly the way it's psionics are basically at-will, encounter and daily powers and applying the better of STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA to its equivalents of Fort, Reflex and Will) with nothing to speak of that is expressly "old school" that I can think of.

It's just always struck me as weird that SWN would be considered OSR.

I admit have had my own doubts about that basic point too. The Revised Edition claims on page 1, "Stars Without Number belongs to the "old-school renaissance" trend in gaming, and draws much of its mechanical inspiration from the classic games of the seventies..." Of course, that raises the question, how close does a system need to be to those old systems in order to qualify as OSR. These days, I am increasingly tempted by a stricter definition mostly centered around retroclones, which are a lot easier to define. Much else claiming the title seems like it could be better described with hyphenated terms like OSR-derived, OSR-adjacent, etc. I could be wrong.

Quote from: Aglondir on November 20, 2023, 06:16:04 PM
Just remembered that SWN1E is desc AC, but Basic Fantasy is asc AC. Which may be a problem, or may not.

Nah, not a problem. Converting a number from DAC to AAC isn't hard. I just prefer not to think in DAC; it always feels like driving to work in reverse.

I'd keep searching for a new game and just use the setting and world building tools from SWN. That being said, I've never played a sci-fi game without a skill list. You might try one of the sci-fi versions of The Black Hack. I see Space Hack and Extinction mentioned in searches. Not certain whether they have skills but probably worth checking out. Monolith might be worth a look. It's a rules-lite game based on Into the Odd and Cairn. I don't see the word "skills" in its table of contents.