QuoteNah, Canadians usually get it fine.

Quote from: SettembriniAre all Colonials immune to irony?

That's just us USA type Americans - you know us people who drink cold weak beer, chant USA all the time, shout more loudly in English at foreigners who don't speak English, think every culture's ambition in life is to grow up and be 'Mercan, wear ugly clothing, drive only SUVs, eat steak and hot dogs and bar-b-q and cheeseburgers, and think they fought both World Wars with a little help from the British. Y'know, God's chosen. All we can manage is a weak sarcasm.

-clash

Mmm, cheeseburgers.

They're wrong, but they're a good wrong.

QuoteThat's just us USA type Americans - you know us people who drink cold weak beer, chant USA all the time, shout more loudly in English at foreigners who don't speak English, think every culture's ambition in life is to grow up and be 'Mercan, wear ugly clothing, drive only SUVs, eat steak and hot dogs and bar-b-q and cheeseburgers, and think they fought both World Wars with a little help from the British. Y'know, God's chosen. All we can manage is a weak sarcasm.

Well it´s sometimes more polite to attribute a certain bad trait to heritage instead of the individual. If it´s X´s upbringing, that let´s him do Y, it´s more comforting. It´s not his fault.
It´s an easy way out, compared to attack any person that is stupid enough to take:

"I´m the brain god, bow before my wisdom and insight, mortal!"

seriously.

I like American Games. I think no one does cool games like those midwesterners!

FASA & GDW especially.

EDIT: Red Fox, I´m with you.

Quote from: SettembriniWell it´s sometimes more polite to attribute a certain bad trait to heritage instead of the individual. If it´s X´s upbringing, that let´s him do Y, it´s more comforting. It´s not his fault.
It´s an easy way out, compared to attack any person that is stupid enough to take:

"I´m the brain god, bow before my wisdom and insight, mortal!"

seriously.

It's really not my fault, I'm 'Mercan. We're all brought up to be Yahoos. I blame our parents, who are also 'Mercans, and thus not to blame for their Yahooness either. They blame their parents. It's a vicious cycle, sort of a bucking bronco on two wheels that we keep falling off of - or, rather, off of which we keep falling - which makes it more of a turnip truck. Since we are bumpkins who have no history, there's nothing there to be ashamed of - I mean, nothing of which we can be ashamed - so we have to do shameful things to catch up. Ketchup. Mmmm, cheeseburgers!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIt's really not my fault, I'm 'Mercan. We're all brought up to be Yahoos. I blame our parents, who are also 'Mercans, and thus not to blame for their Yahooness either. They blame their parents. It's a vicious cycle, sort of a bucking bronco on two wheels that we keep falling off of - or, rather, off of which we keep falling - which makes it more of a turnip truck. Since we are bumpkins who have no history, there's nothing there to be ashamed of - I mean, nothing of which we can be ashamed - so we have to do shameful things to catch up. Ketchup. Mmmm, cheeseburgers!

-clash

Hey, if you blame parents and then parents of parents eventually you get to the British.

The irony however is how much of your previous post with minimal changes can be made to apply to us:

You know us people who drink warm beer, chant Enger-land all the time, shout more loudly in English at foreigners who don't speak English, think every culture's really rather wishes it were British, wear ugly clothing, drive only SUVs particularly when picking the kids up from school, eat fish and chips and Indian takeaways, and think they fought both World Wars with a little help from the Americans.

Quote from: BalbinusHey, if you blame parents and then parents of parents eventually you get to the British.

Since my Grandfather was a Frisian, I'm almost as much German as English, so I can spread the blame even further.

Quote from: BalbinusThe irony however is how much of your previous post with minimal changes can be made to apply to us:

Ah! So that's Irony! I knew the name, but never could put a face to it.

Quote from: BalbinusYou know us people who drink warm beer, chant Enger-land all the time, shout more loudly in English at foreigners who don't speak English, think every culture's really rather wishes it were British, wear ugly clothing, drive only SUVs particularly when picking the kids up from school, eat fish and chips and Indian takeaways, and think they fought both World Wars with a little help from the Americans.

No, no! That's not right! English drink tea with crumpets, shout out "Rahther!" and "Whot?" at random intervals, wear monacles, play cricket, carry umbrellas everywhere, have bad teeth, insert random "u"s into words, and view the world with the amused detatchment of a people who know most cultures at one time were English.

Jeez! I teach you everything I know and you still don't know nothin'!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceSince my Grandfather was a Frisian, I'm almost as much German as English, so I can spread the blame even further.



Ah! So that's Irony! I knew the name, but never could put a face to it.



No, no! That's not right! English drink tea with crumpets, shout out "Rahther!" and "Whot?" at random intervals, wear monacles, play cricket, carry umbrellas everywhere, have bad teeth, insert random "u"s into words, and view the world with the amused detatchment of a people who know most cultures at one time were English.

Jeez! I teach you everything I know and you still don't know nothin'!

-clash

I think you'll find that's the upper classes old chap, they died off in the late 1960s, the lower orders are quite different.

Well, apart from the teeth bit I suppose.  I believe they drink a lot of gin.

Going back to topic, are we talking original series, next gen or DS9?

Also, in actual play, what went wrong with LUG Trek and Fasa?

Quote from: BalbinusI think you'll find that's the upper classes old chap, they died off in the late 1960s, the lower orders are quite different.

Well, apart from the teeth bit I suppose.  I believe they drink a lot of gin.

Bah! Can't fool me! I watch Masterpiece Theatre! I eat yogurt! I'm cultured!

-clash

Oh, I get that you're trying to be funny, Sett. It just rings rather sour when the "joke" seems to be your only real, substantial point in post after post.

And you still aren't offering an ounce of constructive input, I see.

Max: I'm with you; original Trek is where it's at. I'd venture to say that other Trek series are successful only insofar as they capture the original spirit.

(A possibly controversial addendum: I thought Enterprise early on was actually really promising in this regard, though I didn't get a chance to watch much vfurther than a handful of episodes.)

Also:

Quote from: BalbinusAlso, in actual play, what went wrong with LUG Trek and Fasa?

I think this is the most important question to be answered for this discussion.

Peace,
-Joel

Clocking in a little late in the second round here.

I know how to play Star Trek.

Don't be a pixel-bitch and have fun!

The series has plenty of inconsistencies, because the writers only created the elements to serve the story and help suspend disbelief. A GM should do the same.

Uh-oh. . .

Roleplaying Star Trek relies on Trekkies not pixel-bitching?

I concede, Hinterwelt; it IS impossible.

Peace,
-Joel

Sorry, I had given up on the thread so it took a bit for me to notice the questions.

First, from the start, I have acknowledged that if a group is close knit, any setting, no matter how nonsensical, can be made to work. My line of supposition is can you have a game for such a setting? I still believe there are cases where rolling the dice/flipping a card/spending resource points is not a viable solution.

As to limiting it to one series, yes, this helps but does not solve it. This is not about my preferences or if I can run ST the RPG, it is about the difficult of translating cannon of your favorite story into a game system. I have had games in ST that worked but it was primarily a re-enactment of an episode. I actually had players say "Bit that is not what Riker would do" or pick you favorite character. It was not because they could not do something, but because they chose not to and made it harder on themselves. Specifically, I am thinking of a plot that revolved around the death of a crewman and another where they needed a specific ore from a low tech planet.

As to AP, well, I have given examples through this thread. Short and sweet:

A cavalier attitude erupts once players realize that all it takes to come back from the dead is transporter trickery. Yes, you can use GM fiat to screw with this.

Any firefight has beyond ridiculous lethality. "Take cover behind that building" is useless in LUG Trek and Decipher Trek. Again, GM fiat can solve this one also.

Replicating nigh anything (except the inexplicable latinum which somehow can go through transporters) made resource based missions tough. It seems beyond illogical to be able to disassemble an entire human body and reassemble it but you cannot make a simple dilithium crystal. Having dilithium mines (or mines of any type) just does not seem to be a logical extension of the setting. I have run up against this many times. Again, GM fiat solves it but I think you see a pattern forming.


In the end, Red Fox really summed it up. Inconsistant writing in the series makes it difficult (IMO impossible) to create a game from some settings (Star Trek being the easiest example). I fully concede that to resolve these issues you can:
1. Change the setting. Either put it in the dim past where canon is less of an issues although I tend to think the root of the problems still exist or just out ant out eliminate some aspects of the setting by denying canon.

2. Whatever you want to call it, GM fiat or player buy in, the group agrees to ignore some viable alternatives that have been proven in the past either by canon or by the group themselves. The "I forgot we have a shuttle that can travel through suns" issue.

3. Drop system or game or whatever you wish to call consistent rules structure in favor of collaborative story telling;i.e. sitting around talking about what you wish Picard had done in that episode.

Again, I am not trying to rag on your favorite ST game (assuming it is) just trying to hash out an issue I had observed as a designer. I have heard a lot of arguments on the other side of this. A lot of people (Ineti of on RPG.Net especially) seem convinced I do not understand what ST is really about. Believe me, I do. The issue I have observed has been mostly due to players who want a consistent game structure behind the setting and discover that it is not viable. As Redfox aptly pointed out, you cannot apply a consistent game engine to inconsistent circumstances. Or that is my take on it anyway.

Bill