Star Trek is bullshit from the grounds up, from an RPG view.

There is no way to keep it Star Trek and be a decent Adventurery Gamey thing, just like it is with Superheroes.

Either you fully go down the road to Thematic Story Creation, or you leave the Emulation of Genre to actually play in a closely related but not the actual franchise universe.


It´s that easy.

Quote from: J Arcane/me initiates Star trek geek mode

Those answers are stupid.

The simpler answer is that the transporter clone isn't you.  Much like Riker's clone, it's an entirely different person, that just happens to look like you and share your memories, and from that point on isn't even necessarily going to go down the same path in life, personality, or anything.

You could actually spin an entirely new character concept from the consequences of such an action.  The ethical questions of not leaving the dead to lie, and trying to replace him with a clone.  The internal conflict of trying to live up to the image of this other person that you've replaced.  The external conflict of the rest of the crew's difficulty with adjusting to the fact that this is a new being, clone or not.  

And bloody hell, you've already got a whole damn plotline in the real show to base the whole thing off of.  But more importantly, these kinds of dilemmas are exactly what the show is about, especially the NextGen era.  

The alternative solution, easier, but perhaps less fun, is that the transporter buffer only holds onto your matter pattern during the transport.  Once the transport is completed the buffer is empty: you aren't in it anymore.  Scotty's trick worked because he just didn't leave the bloody thing when he should have, so he was just floating around in the thing, and he very well could've died anyway as I recall, as he had to make some extensive modifications to the thing just to get the thing to reliably hold the patter buffer for that long.

I counter with ?not the same thing". Riker's duplicate had been separated for years. Of course this would duplicate someone who would have their own life but you would also have someone with the same motives, goals and training so you would have one of the best soldiers many times over. However, from a game point of view, it is the "I die and am instantly reborn" that makes it tough. The "matter stream empties out of the transport buffer" is just weak. Terribly so. It is information and to claim otherwise is being purposely evasive. As information, it can be stored. They once recovered the doctor's pattern from several months earlier so they could cure her of the old aging disease. The problem here is that you would not have the crew eye-balling you, since there would not be a duplicate...the last guy is dead.

And in the end, it is not about this specific ability, the game would fall apart on a mechanical level (and has IMO at least two times) from a number of issues ranging from tactical to skill resolution to basic adventure motivation.

Again, I hope to be convinced otherwise but so far not happening. I would like to think in the grand scheme of things, that any story can be translated to an RPG but I fear that this is not the case. I am only picking on ST here because it is the easiest example of the issues.

Bill

Quote from: jrientsAssume nothing. No TV show, movie, book, or fan material will give you an insight into what has happened or what will happen in this campaign.

:pundit: I consider this essential with dealing with any detailed setting. Such detail and materials are helpful of course for a GM looking for a springboard and there should be internal consistency within the campaign, but keeping that sense of wonder and openness while at the same time preventing setting lawyering is key IMO.

QuoteThe main inspirations for the campaign are the Original Series (particularly the 2 pilots), the Animated Series, and Franz Joseph's original Star Fleet Technical Manual. Even these cannot be considered "canonical", merely helpful to see where I am coming from.

:cool: Yes please! :cool:

QuoteI am expecting the crew of the Saladin to have a direct impact on the fate of the Federation, the galaxy, and even the universe. The campaign is a Star Trek series and the PCs are the stars of the show. You are the Kirk. Go out and grab the galaxy by the gonads.

That's what I hoped Enterprise would be, it rarely did that. IMO the best episode was the warp drive test flashback episode & even that had the Vulcan Overseer types. :deflated:

I've attempted a FASA Trek based campaign (swapping out the AP & counters combat with simple CoC combat) set before the movies loosely based in FASA's Triangle. Folded in detail and attitude from Prime Directive/SFB 'verse and other early period sources (similar to jrients writeup) and centered around a starbase. It didn't go far due to RL. While I'd like to revisit it some winter I'd also like to try the even earlier days setup sometime. :cool:

Quote from: SettembriniThere is no way to keep it Star Trek and be a decent Adventurery Gamey thing, just like it is with Superheroes.

I like reading your posts. Giggling is fun, especially when it's at another's expense.

Revisit Jeff Rients post, read how much he stays true to the series, how much emulation he plans.

Then revisit my post and learn of my superiour intellect that put it all in words before you can even begin to understand.

There is no Superhero roleplaying that

1) is truthful to the story structure of SH comics
AND
2) is following the three pillars of RPGing (D&D/RQ/Champions) design principles.

Superhero roleplaying is a chimera as is any genre emulation. They are the satanic evil idea that brought people into the Forgers vile clutches, after letting them burn in the purgatory of WhiteWolf.

Think what makes a Superhero comic, and compare to an Adventure RPG.
Either you violate the rules of the genre, or you go down the long and ugly way to   "collaborative story-telling".

Look, if you want a good Star Trek RPG, you just need to recalibrate the intertial dampers, set up a phase variant inhibitor, and hook up Geordi's visor to the canteen microwave.  This ain't rocket science*, people.

'Cause they don't use rockets, they use warp nacelles, obviously.

Quote from: SettembriniRevisit Jeff Rients post, read how much he stays true to the series, how much emulation he plans.

Then revisit my post and learn of my superiour intellect that put it all in words before you can even begin to understand.

There is no Superhero roleplaying that

1) is truthful to the story structure of SH comics
AND
2) is following the three pillars of RPGing (D&D/RQ/Champions) design principles.

Superhero roleplaying is a chimera as is any genre emulation. They are the satanic evil idea that brought people into the Forgers vile clutches, after letting them burn in the purgatory of WhiteWolf.

Think what makes a Superhero comic, and compare to an Adventure RPG.
Either you violate the rules of the genre, or you go down the long and ugly way to   "collaborative story-telling".

Yeah, but who gives a shit about this arbitrary "Adventure Game" label you've imposed. Of course if you set up a definition so that something doesn't fit you'll be able to come along later and say "see, it doesn't fit my definition!". And the giggling continues.

Quote from: SettembriniEither you violate the rules of the genre, or you go down the long and ugly way to   "collaborative story-telling".

If you go with the Settings as Backdrop and the game is about the "people", then you may be able to do it.  Painted secenry does not Have to work it serves its function by establishing the location for the scene.

It doesn't have to be "Story-telling" if the focus of the GAME is not the background items.  Maybe by being DitV like and dealing with violations of the Prime Directive.
=

Quote from: GreentongueIf you go with the Settings as Backdrop and the game is about the "people", then you may be able to do it.  Painted secenry does not Have to work it serves its function by establishing the location for the scene.

It doesn't have to be "Story-telling" if the focus of the GAME is not the background items.  Maybe by being DitV like and dealing with violations of the Prime Directive.
=

The problem is though, that back drop is fundamental to the interaction of the characters with their environment. The tools at the disposal of the savvy ST fan are formidable. The TV series has a convenient "Forgot how we did that" factor that RPG players will not go with. Yes, you could argue that Ensign Newbie does not have that information but that is seldom how it plays out.

And although I do not go to planet Hyperbole I with Sett, in essence this is the issue. I do not doubt you could get a group of friends around a table who are ST fans and play out scenes from the series or even improv scenes but, IMO, that is not role-playing it is collaborative story telling. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not a game. Originally, I was looking for other examples of settings that do not translate well and to see if others felt this transition was an issue.

So, no matter if you push the boundaries and make the game as much as possible about the personal interactions I believe that the issues still remain. For a physical representation of this phenomenon just look to the Lug Trek and Decipher Trek books. Weapons are too strong, technology too poorly defined, and no means of dealing with setting inconsistencies.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI counter with ?not the same thing". Riker's duplicate had been separated for years. Of course this would duplicate someone who would have their own life but you would also have someone with the same motives, goals and training so you would have one of the best soldiers many times over. However, from a game point of view, it is the "I die and am instantly reborn" that makes it tough. The "matter stream empties out of the transport buffer" is just weak. Terribly so. It is information and to claim otherwise is being purposely evasive. As information, it can be stored. They once recovered the doctor's pattern from several months earlier so they could cure her of the old aging disease. The problem here is that you would not have the crew eye-balling you, since there would not be a duplicate...the last guy is dead.

And in the end, it is not about this specific ability, the game would fall apart on a mechanical level (and has IMO at least two times) from a number of issues ranging from tactical to skill resolution to basic adventure motivation.

Again, I hope to be convinced otherwise but so far not happening. I would like to think in the grand scheme of things, that any story can be translated to an RPG but I fear that this is not the case. I am only picking on ST here because it is the easiest example of the issues.

Bill

Frankly dude, it sounds like you just really WANT this to be a problem for some reason.

Can't help someone who doesn't wanna be helped.

Quote from: SettembriniStar Trek is bullshit from the grounds up, from an RPG view.

There is no way to keep it Star Trek and be a decent Adventurery Gamey thing, just like it is with Superheroes.

Either you fully go down the road to Thematic Story Creation, or you leave the Emulation of Genre to actually play in a closely related but not the actual franchise universe.

It´s that easy.

 "Star Trek" is RPG BUllshit ??

 No it isn't - it can be done.  I GM-ed TREK campaigns for a good 7 years or so in the mid to late 1980s.  One of the players I had then is now in my GURPS:TRAVELLER game .  Players being little snots has nothing to do with the setting, wheter TREK or not.  Just gotta find players who don't play like little snots.  An RPG is not a thing to be "broken" by looking for a loophole just because you spent too much time watching TV episodes related to the setting.

 "Adeventurey Gamey" ?  Again with that awkward term . Either its a game or its a roleplaying game. (usually if someone is "gamey" they tend to take a shower to be kind to their friends)


"Thematic Story Creation" (?!!?)  - Is that a euphemism for agreeing on a setting and not being a dick if you're a player?

 "Emulation of Genre"  ?   - You mean trying to get the game to seem like well-written Star Trek episode? Gee , thats just being a good GM.

  What is it all these funky phrases anyway ?  Plain english works just fine.

 Sorry for ranting folks....


- Ed C.

Koltar, Sett's just a Forgeite in sheep's clothing, as married to stupid jargon as the rest of them, and as prone to hypocrisy and prejudice.

He's not worth your time, and it's not even worth your time to bother puzzling out just what the hell he's babbling this time.

Quote from: HinterWeltThe problem is though, that back drop is fundamental to the interaction of the characters with their environment. The tools at the disposal of the savvy ST fan are formidable. The TV series has a convenient "Forgot how we did that" factor that RPG players will not go with. Yes, you could argue that Ensign Newbie does not have that information but that is seldom how it plays out.

I think this is your problem. If the players are only interested in breaking the pseudo-science of the Star Trek universe, the Star Trek universe is probably not the best choice for a game. RPG players all over the world wo "go with it" all the time though, so it can be done. It just might not be right for your group.

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, no matter if you push the boundaries and make the game as much as possible about the personal interactions I believe that the issues still remain. For a physical representation of this phenomenon just look to the Lug Trek and Decipher Trek books. Weapons are too strong, technology too poorly defined, and no means of dealing with setting inconsistencies.

You know, it might help to have an actual discussion about these issues if you'd give some specific examples. Like, in what way is "technology too poorly defined"? Or what's lacking in the "means of dealing with setting inconsistencies" department? What, in your opinion, would satisfactory "means of dealing with setting inconsistencies" look like?

Sett: Same goes for you, dude. You're fond of making these very general statements about, say, Superhero roleplaying, but you never explain specifically what you mean. The attitude I usually see is something like, "Oh, you know what I mean." Explaining your superhero point in too great a detail here would probably be off-topic (then again, you brought up Superheroes, Lord knows why), but it'd be nice to see you actually explain yourself once in a while.

Then again, if this is your only goal:

Quote from: Settembrinilearn of my superiour intellect that put it all in words before you can even begin to understand.

. . .then I suppose you're doing just fine. Keep on truckin' brother.

peace,
-Joel

Quote from: J ArcaneFrankly dude, it sounds like you just really WANT this to be a problem for some reason.

Can't help someone who doesn't wanna be helped.

See, I would say you do not want it to be a problem and if so, you will not see a problem. Believe me, I have tried to make it work and yes, if everyone is willing to play their part, it does. But let me stress what that means.

To play their part in settings of this nature means: To ignore, purposely, solutions that would be pursued in another setting.

For instance, teleportation spell is much like a transport except for some game balancing points.
1. No buffer. You (usually) cannot take a teleport spell and resurrect yourself.
2. Resource intensive. I just saw an episode that stated millions of people transport every day. Teleportation spells tend to be difficult to get and used sparingly.

Let me stress, when I have played successful ST games it has usually been when you turn off your tactical side and shoot for emulating the setting. My experience has always been an eventual breakdown, not really of the system, so much as attempts to quantify the setting.

In the end, I just may not be communicating it well, you do not seem to understand the issue if I understand you correctly. Perhaps it is more of a case that you have never observed the circumstances I have. That is also the kind of response I have been looking for. Either way, sorry to have wasted your time.

Bill