Greetings!

In my Thandor World, Alchemists are very interesting characters, and fulfill a meaningful and significant role within various cultures as a talented inventor, mechanic, scholar, chemist, and engineer, all rolled into one character type. Of course, there are specialized fields of study that a particular Alchemist can focus on, and gain additional benefits for such dedication.

One could make the argument that "Well, aren't Wizards Alchemists?"

The answer would be certainly. However, while all Wizards may be Alchemists--not all Alchemists are Wizards.

Thus, I leave room there within the campaign for highly-magical, spell-casting Alchemists--and rather non-magical, non-spell-casting Alchemists. That way, there is also some room and flexibility for different kinds of Alchemists, and also providing for cultural templates that are flexible and colourful, while also being relatively unique.

This dynamic also allows for different kinds of villains--like crazy asylum doctors, depraved physicians, corrupt inventors and engineers at court that all can have a large and diverse suite of knowledge and abilities, without always busting out with the stereotypical artillery of fireball and lightning bolt.

This foundation then allows for a kind of grounded cultural environment--I can have a few Alchemists in every town. They are common character types, providing a variety of specialized professional services, all without necessitating magic. However, while magic is therefore not necessary, as in being a full spellcaster, the individual Alchemists can very much own and use magic items, specialized, tailored spell lists of minor magical spells, and otherwise embrace a style and form that distinguishes them from Wizards, while simultaneously embracing degrees of overlap.

Have you worked on providing extensive detail for Alchemists in your own campaigns?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I like the flavor of alchemists.  I don't much care for the way it gets handled in systems where it is tacked on after the fact, or merely rolled up as a part of "crafting".  Meanwhile, I really like the flavor of the Dragon Quest alchemists, though the DQ rules being a mess gets in the way.  (And the DQ rules for alchemists were built up piecemeal, never reconciled, and are in some cases contradictory.)

The way I've seen alchemy really work to my liking in a class-based game is when "Alchemy" becomes one of the branches of magic, complete with spells, such as with the old Wizardry series of computer games.

Anyway, DQ is a mostly skills-based game (under the hood, despite surface appearances to the contrary with its "professions" and magical colleges).  DQ divides the roll of alchemy into 5 broad areas:

- The alchemist profession is required to do anything with it at all.
- The ranger profession is required in anything using a natural herb.
- the healer profession is required in anything that cures (boosts from natural herbs notwithstanding).
- the assassin profession is required in anything that involves poison.
- an adept of the proper college is required to put a spell into a potion.

That could be the same character, given enough skill.  A healer/alchemist can make a healing potion solo, but for many characters, cooperation is required, and convenient even when it isn't required.

I'm using something similar in my own system, and the settings it encourages, where anyone with the proper alchemy, herbalism, or medicine skills (bolstered by broader skills in healing or nature) can do some thing straight up, and then mixed with a magic tradition can make potions and other consumable items.  Note that to do anything powerful requires considerable dedication to the skills, and even then would be somewhat reliable.  So this is not "First level magician/alchemist is building greek fire" out of the gate.  At lower skill, the main benefit is in identifying substances.  But then the implied setting is somewhat restrained at lower powers anyway.

Considering my main setting is based in large part on Chinese myth and history, alchemists are kinda important to the flavor of the setting. Granted, it's slightly different in nature compared to western alchemy, but the image of the image of the Chinese alchemist, and tangentially pharmacists, are iconic enough that just calling it alchemy is enough to evoke the scenes I want.

I really dig on The Compleat Alchemist by Bard Games, and the alchemy skills & rules of The Arcanum 2E, more than anything I have seen for alchemist classes/professions/whatnot in many of the TTRPGs that have come and gone since those books' time. Most alchemists in other games are really just another name for spellcasters, and kind of boring.

I have yet to dig in to the SWADE Fantasy Companion deep enough to see if they are just another power-user or not. I suspect that's more than likely the case, which is kind of another swing and miss for me even though I do love mostly everything else about SWADE.

I also have been meaning to read up on RPGPundit's Lion & Dragon + Medieval Authentic stuff and sadly haven't yet even though I've got them. I'm guessing they are probably quite different than merely spell-casters in those products as well, and that's really what I'd like to get with a true Alchemist character.

Ultimately, I'd like them to fulfill the role of healer over and above and preferably without spell-casting clerics, in the campaign world that lurks within the dark recesses of my mind.

Since everybody around here in Texas is always so gung-ho about 5E, it is rare that I can find a group that will play anything else.

In my game they are only significant (for PCs) for spell casters when a spell or creation of a of magic item requires their service.

I'm using BRP Enlightened Magic. The rules for sorcery and alchemy are very different and flavorful. Even if you don't use BRP, the magic system can be converted to another system.

When I run fantasy adventure, I use a skill based game rather than a level based game like D&D.  The skills that would make an alchemist's repertoire are available for PCs to develop. 

I don't run a high adventure game, but rather a more grounded game.  Players can still be fighters and wizards but they don't obtain massive power.  A dragon is still a one hit lethal creature no matter what a PC does.  Local barons are top notch warriors themselves and they employ knights and men-at-arms that are one-on-one equals to the PCs.  Where the PCs stand out is that they are free to move about and take on work how they see it rather than being tied to a duty like the NPCs.

Because the world is lethal if you try to tackle it with brute force, PCs need to find creative solutions.  They must negotiate, sneak, and use the world around them.  In many ways, jobs that PCs are offered are like locks to be picked, bypassed, or broken open.  Every skill now becomes a valuable tool in finding a way to deal with problems.

Someone that's very skilled in alchemy can become a very powerful PC indeed if they use their brains.  After all, making a sleep gas to sedate the dragon and retrieve the golden censor is a lot better than spending a fortune hiring idiots to antagonize the dragon for a distraction.  (There are reasons in my setting as to why killing a dragon is a bad idea unless you are out of options.)

One of my annoyances with 5e is that artificers aka alchemists are semi-official; every game where I haven't locked down character classes, I've had a player show up with one. I want to be more medieval and grounded than the 5e default, and that conception of artificers generally don't fit my worlds. Alchemy would be great for downtime, and for NPC service-providers. (I can see a more gonzo / "fantastic" world having artificers, absolutely, but not really in the 5e sense, and although I'd love to play in a setting like that I don't feel inspired to write one?)

I know people have tried to systematize alchemy and crafting in various ways, but I haven't yet found one I'm keen on; in some ways I miss the old ICE Robin Hood herblore rules, or the unrealised potential of lists of gemstones & purported influences that I seem to recall in the AD&D DMG. What are some good alchemy rulesets?

(I do have a tiny sandbox lying around where the dwarves abandoned the entire area because their settlement up in the gorge by the northern desert built automata that got out of hand, but that's totally a spoiler. And very ACKS-inflected.)

Quote from: Naburimannu on September 21, 2023, 03:43:18 AM
One of my annoyances with 5e is that artificers aka alchemists are semi-official; every game where I haven't locked down character classes, I've had a player show up with one. I want to be more medieval and grounded than the 5e default,

Then stop playing garbage like 5e

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2023, 08:42:38 AM
I'm using BRP Enlightened Magic. The rules for sorcery and alchemy are very different and flavorful. Even if you don't use BRP, the magic system can be converted to another system.

To go into more detail, each type of magic is divided into three ascending circles.

Sorcery is divided into Casual Magic, Ritual Magic, and High Magic. Casual Magic can be done casually on the fly, but is very limited in scope: only one target, 10 minutes max duration, effects are very subtle... but it's useful for things like information gathering or slightly influencing thoughts or living processes. Ritual Magic can be cast through a magical connection to the target and has higher limits, but requires a ritual to cast. High Magic can do things like control the weather or resurrect the recently deceased, but requires a lot of preparation and is limited to specific days of the week. Rituals are done in the classic occult fashion, with magic circles, paraphernalia, and performing actions with component objects symbolic of the desired effect. The effects are subtle and you can't throw fireballs, but you can cause someone's house to burn down with them inside and no way of tying it to you.

Alchemy is divided into Black Stone, White Stone, and Philosopher's Stone. These aren't structured by power level like Sorcery, but by the aspect of reality they target: Black Stone affects the physical (matter, biology), White Stone affects the mental, Philosopher's Stone affects the spiritual. Black Stone can produce alchemical substances that produce a desired effect on contact with the target such as strengthening, weakening, combustion, etc., or perform deeper alterations in the laboratory like growing a homunculus or turning someone into a physical duplicate of someone else. White Stone produces works of art that inspired a particular emotion or mental effect in the audience, such as becoming more or less agreeable, sharing the same dream, etc. Stone is prepared by meditation, after which the alchemist glances at or points at the target to transmute their soul in the desired fashion to produce permanent changes in personality, grant inanimate objects a soul, etc. The alchemist is free to customize the style of their laboratory, works of art, and meditations.

It is inspired by the western occult tradition but made gameable. It is probably the most flavorful magic system I have ever read. It include notes on roleplaying the process and the GM granting bonuses based on how detailed the player describes it.

Quote from: SHARK on September 18, 2023, 01:01:54 PM
Have you worked on providing extensive detail for Alchemists in your own campaigns?

Yup

https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Herbs%20and%20Potions%20Rev_02.pdf

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 18, 2023, 01:41:34 PM
I like the flavor of alchemists.  I don't much care for the way it gets handled in systems where it is tacked on after the fact, or merely rolled up as a part of "crafting".  Meanwhile, I really like the flavor of the Dragon Quest alchemists, though the DQ rules being a mess gets in the way.  (And the DQ rules for alchemists were built up piecemeal, never reconciled, and are in some cases contradictory.)

The way I've seen alchemy really work to my liking in a class-based game is when "Alchemy" becomes one of the branches of magic, complete with spells, such as with the old Wizardry series of computer games.

Anyway, DQ is a mostly skills-based game (under the hood, despite surface appearances to the contrary with its "professions" and magical colleges).  DQ divides the roll of alchemy into 5 broad areas:

- The alchemist profession is required to do anything with it at all.
- The ranger profession is required in anything using a natural herb.
- the healer profession is required in anything that cures (boosts from natural herbs notwithstanding).
- the assassin profession is required in anything that involves poison.
- an adept of the proper college is required to put a spell into a potion.

That could be the same character, given enough skill.  A healer/alchemist can make a healing potion solo, but for many characters, cooperation is required, and convenient even when it isn't required.

I'm using something similar in my own system, and the settings it encourages, where anyone with the proper alchemy, herbalism, or medicine skills (bolstered by broader skills in healing or nature) can do some thing straight up, and then mixed with a magic tradition can make potions and other consumable items.  Note that to do anything powerful requires considerable dedication to the skills, and even then would be somewhat reliable.  So this is not "First level magician/alchemist is building greek fire" out of the gate.  At lower skill, the main benefit is in identifying substances.  But then the implied setting is somewhat restrained at lower powers anyway.

Greetings!

Interesting stuff, Steven! I like that kind of variety, flexibility, and detail. Alchemists really do shine with a robust set of knowledges and skills. Every system I look at, must have a strong skill system. If it doesn't, like 5E, I have just made my own skill system.

I played Rolemaster for years, as well as Warhammer FRP, and of course 3E. Indeed, "Skill Points" can be a pain, and that degree of fiddling detail is probably too much struggle and bookkeeping for the payoff--but having said that, there still remains the salient need for a strong skill system. So many character concepts simply rely and shine on using such a strong skill system. Nerf the skill system down, and it brings major handicaps to so many character types.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I haven't been a fan of alchemy as an adventuring ability.  To me it seems more of a support activity for a guy with a lab (like Q in the James Bond books/movies), not something an adventurer does.

But now the co-author of my current game really wants alchemy to be a primary avocation for an adventurer, so we're trying to figure out how to do that.  So the alchemist is kind of like a spellcaster, but he uses potions to create his effects.  That's easy enough.  But I'm still looking for a way to keep his power at approximate parity with the rest of the party.  Unless there's some type of limitation, an alchemist could brew up a thousand potions and carry them into the dungeon on a donkey.  He'd have effectively unlimited magical resources.

I have some ideas I kind of like that I'm going to develop but I'm interested in the approaches others have seen and used.  There's a couple that were obvious, but I found unsatisfactory.  A limitation of the number of potions one can carry just because game balance doesn't sit well with me.  I dislike meta rules - I want a reason that makes sense in the fictional universe.  Cost to brew potions can work, but the gamemaster then needs to be very careful with the amount of treasure handed out, because it affects the power of the alchemist a lot more than the other characters.  This is burdensome, as I found out when I created a fighter-engineer class for my brother, back in my 2E days.

Quote from: Mishihari on September 22, 2023, 01:10:31 AM
I haven't been a fan of alchemy as an adventuring ability.  To me it seems more of a support activity for a guy with a lab (like Q in the James Bond books/movies), not something an adventurer does.

But now the co-author of my current game really wants alchemy to be a primary avocation for an adventurer, so we're trying to figure out how to do that.  So the alchemist is kind of like a spellcaster, but he uses potions to create his effects.  That's easy enough.  But I'm still looking for a way to keep his power at approximate parity with the rest of the party.  Unless there's some type of limitation, an alchemist could brew up a thousand potions and carry them into the dungeon on a donkey.  He'd have effectively unlimited magical resources.

I have some ideas I kind of like that I'm going to develop but I'm interested in the approaches others have seen and used.  There's a couple that were obvious, but I found unsatisfactory.  A limitation of the number of potions one can carry just because game balance doesn't sit well with me.  I dislike meta rules - I want a reason that makes sense in the fictional universe.  Cost to brew potions can work, but the gamemaster then needs to be very careful with the amount of treasure handed out, because it affects the power of the alchemist a lot more than the other characters.  This is burdensome, as I found out when I created a fighter-engineer class for my brother, back in my 2E days.

You might enjoy the DQ approach in another aspect then, one I'm also using:  Some of the "spells" actually make short duration potions.  The obvious one is a cure spell that turns a glass of water or wine or ale (or other normal drink) into a small healing potion.  The spell lasts for a few minutes.  This kind of thing works best in rules where some kind of Gygaxian naturalism is expected.  The standard cure spell happens right away, requires no participation by the target, but requires the caster to be on the spot at that moment.  The potion version is slower to use, requires a physical object, but can be handed off to another character to supply--possibly even pouring down the throat of the original caster. 

In DQ, the role of the alchemist is pure support, because only their potions are long-lasting, and what we normally think of as potions.  There is plenty of transitory magic, though, not only limited to those short-duration spell potions.  (Some casters can make short duration wands in a similar fashion, for example.)  But there is no reason why a game couldn't be designed to have the alchemist do both the short and the long versions.

Whether or not you like/use the system itself, this Rolemaster supplement has good info on alchemy: https://bits.rainwalk.net/Rolemaster/Rolemaster%20Companions/Rolemaster%20-%20Alchemy%20Companion.pdf

And it offers the crazy depth & detail one expects from Rolemaster.