Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 17, 2020, 10:58:30 AM
Dude, you are apparently new to the internet.  You may take a "live-and-let-live" attitude towards those who want to track ammo, but that is not representative of the discussions I've had on the matter.  There's pretty equal amounts of "one true way"-ism on both sides of pretty much any argument about RPGs.  Ain't nobody on the side of angels in this hobby.  I'll need serious documentation of any assertion to the contrary...

I an not new to the Internet. Gamers don't ahve to be assholes to each other simply because of the "Interent". It's a lame and pathetic excuse to just use the Internet as an excuse for bad behavior. Is their a gun to one head no then no reason to be an asshole to one another. I am not saint when it comes to such bad behavior yet I also don't hide behind the Internet as an excuse. Nor am an "Angel" in the hobby going by this thread alone the track ammo side seems to be engaging in more Onetruewayism than the other. To be honest not interested.

As Kyle Aaron has said we are not having those other discussions we are having this one. Sorry to hear but not every gamer in the hobby is an asshole or engages in One truewayism. That is all the proof your going to get.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 17, 2020, 05:58:27 PM
We are not having those discussions, we are having this discussion. It's always more productive to contend with what people have actually said in the conversation you're having now, rather than bringing your baggage from previous discussions, opening it up and scattering it everywhere to get in people's way.

Very much agreed and seconded.

@ Shark again I am not saying don't track arrows yet unless I am playing with absolute beginners most can and will stock up on ammunition and supplies. I have played over the years with a handful who could not be bothered to track anything even after subtle hints about the enemy leaving arrows or food behind after combat. They are exception and not the norm. I am not going to be telling 5 year+ veterans of the hobby who I know will stock up on supplies to track everything. Again I make sure to tell them to stock up when and where supplies are to be had. If they don't they are shit out of luck. What joins a group and their dynamic together imo is not tracking ammo and supplies it's the adventures they have been with their player characters.

We still talk about the time the Half-Orc Lawful Evil Fighter through good roleplaying and a natural 20 on their Diplomacy roll convinced the group of Paladins to use the secret passage (read back door to the evil dragons lair) to attack the dragon. They were all wiped out except for one who decided to do the worst thing imaginable pay bards and storytellers far and wide the exploits of the group and the so called "heroic" Orc Fighter. The character who before was spit on became a celebrity overnight. To his hero and dismay lol. Made worse when one of his enchantments on his Full Plate was defective in that it worked (I think it was glamered) and turned his suit in a bright shining heroic suit of full plate.  That is what makes interesting stories between players. Running out of arrow that one time at Orc Band camp is remembered and quickly forgotten as a foot note.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on December 17, 2020, 06:47:34 PM
YES. WE ARE LAZY. Get over it, simulationist bastard. We're here to have fun, not make chores

Good on you to own it. Lazy is not necessarily an insult. I'm lazy about drawing up detailed character backstories (aka, I don't). Others spend hours on that shit.

I get that it's a chore to track arrows. There are a lot of chores that go with most TTRPGs, which is why pencils and erasers are used.

I'm curious though, why draw the line at arrows? There's a crap ton of ammo in these games like

javelins
throwing knives
hand axes (could be thrown)
sling bullets
arrows
bolts
darts
nets

and they could be poisoned, silvered, magical, etc. In a combat, barbarian hurls two javelins and ranger fires five arrows. Track the javelins but not the arrows because the arrows are smaller/cheaper? Or track neither? Or thief poisons one of his three throwing knives. I assume we'd track that, right? Or not? I suppose I'm looking for some general principle, but maybe it's just track what gets tracked and don't track what doesn't.

QuoteSo where's your line? Do you track hit points? Do you use stats? Aren't those just boring number tracking?
Honestly, my sister and her friends used to play a kind of storytelling game where there were no rules, just them saying stuff. Which is fine, but there's really no game to it. And one of the letter in the acryonym is Game for a reason.

Between "no rules storytelling" and "full simulationism" there is array of possibilities.
And there are many games with shooting units not counting ammo - where gamist element is centred on different elements.

QuoteHmmm. It seems that some people for the sake of argument like to argue from the absurd. Of course non-relevant supplies, how often you get a headache, how many bow strings you have, etc, I mean, come on. The essentials are tracked because they are worthwhile and meaningful, and can potentially have an impact on player choices and decisions. So, supplies of rations, water, arrows, flasks of oil--all of these things have a relevant impact not only on the capabilities of the individual, but also have an impact on the group functioning successfully as a team.

I see no reason to exclude bow-strings from it. They are way more important supply than non-magical arrows, and can way easier fuck archer up. At least if we try to make D&D archery simmilar to real one at least a bit
What is worthwile and meaningful in specific game RP or not depends well on what game we play, and what's important in specific one for your success (assuming you play to succeed and not die horribly like in horror games).

QuoteSame thing with arrows. If your Ranger player runs out of arrows, the group loses a considerable source of firepower and tactical flexibility. In addition, if the Fighter or Barbarian also run out of arrows, the group can then be at a serious and even fatal disadvantage, depending on the terrain they are in and the likely opposition. Thus, not stocking up enough on arrows requires the group to cease their immediate operations, and make a return trip to the nearby town for additional restock of arrows and such. Again, why is this such a bad thing? In groups back in the day--to right now--being forced to make return trips into town for supplies is *EXCELLENT* It provides the group opportunities to roleplay more with each other, interact with group NPC's, gather information in the town or along the road, learn more knowledge, and so on. Again, all good things. In addition, being forced to actually attend to such details increases *IMMERSION* and makes the gameplay more real and meaningful, and less like a video game.

Then where are rules for fatigue of meelee weapons? Or how after rebounding few hits your armour can be way less effective and have weak spots? No one cares, but suddenly arrows are crucial supply because immersion. Maybe it's immersive for people not knowing sword is rarely permanent supply
(Also actually most of video games limits various supplies - ammo is limited, you have to find it, special equipment - limited, superpowers limited. Both RPGs and shooter games I played - all had management of supplies in them - so if anything counting arrows makes it more like video game).

QuoteIn video games, many such details are glossed over and done away with. RPG's and D&D in articular are not video games. So, embrace the details, and enjoy playing the game, and *being* a character in a fantastic world!

D&D in particular is one of most video gamey RPGs that's why it's one of few RPGs with good supply of decent PC games.
Imagine turning Call of Cthulhu of any game with long list of skills and practical professions into video game. Utter nightmare.

QuoteGood on you to own it. Lazy is not necessarily an insult. I'm lazy about drawing up detailed character backstories (aka, I don't). Others spend hours on that shit.

I have mixed opinions. I like random tables of pre-adventure past, and some diagrams describing starting relationship in a team, because playing a team of total strangers is usually total chore, better to force them to create team, not just PCs.

I get that it's a chore to track arrows. There are a lot of chores that go with most TTRPGs, which is why pencils and erasers are used.

QuoteI'm curious though, why draw the line at arrows? There's a crap ton of ammo in these games like

javelins
throwing knives
hand axes (could be thrown)
sling bullets
arrows
bolts
darts
nets

and they could be poisoned, silvered, magical, etc. In a combat, barbarian hurls two javelins and ranger fires five arrows. Track the javelins but not the arrows because the arrows are smaller/cheaper? Or track neither? Or thief poisons one of his three throwing knives. I assume we'd track that, right? Or not? I suppose I'm looking for some general principle, but maybe it's just track what gets tracked and don't track what doesn't.

I do not acquire some absolute logic and consistency to it, or I end like those lefties who from their belief in autonomy of human derive absolute autonomy of animals and go mad vegans
Depends on how big ones there are, and how expensive compared to party economic status.
I'd definitely count special ammo, that's for sure.

But normal bolts, arrows, slingshots - maybe at beginner levels which are kinda deadly. But on level 10 of D&D 3.5 my players are starting to getting wuxia heroes and then into superheroism.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2020, 09:16:06 AM
I'm curious though, why draw the line at arrows? There's a crap ton of ammo in these games like; javelins, throwing knives, hand axes (could be thrown), sling bullets, arrows, bolts, darts, nets.

I go back and forth on tracking depending on the campaign, but if we aren't rigorously tracking ammo I can give you our general guidelines.

Basically, it comes down to... if it's something you're likely to run out of in a single combat (the guy with a pair if throwing axes on his belt), then track it. If they have enough to not run out in a battle (a guy with more than a dozen throwing knives strapped to various easy to reach places) then we generally don't bother tracking... particularly if the item is recoverable as soon as the fight's over (throwing knives, axes, javelins).

Also, the more expensive the item the more likely we are to track it. Track each ordinary arrow (at 1 sp each) ? Probably not. Track the three "arrows of slaying" the character got as their share of the treasure? Heck, yes.

We tend to play fairly high magic games though so bows that create their own ammo and thrown weapons that magically return to your hand are pretty common past the first few levels (so are everburning torches/lanterns, everfull waterskins, endless rations, instant campsites and trollskin ropes... keep you magic swords, my main group prefers magic utility items).

Track or don't track doesn't matter much to me. The only thing I go a bit "onetruewayist" on is "non-tracking" mechanics more complex than just making tick marks (that roll a diminishing die after each shot was particularly bad design since it adds a roll to each attack and still requires you to track which die type you're using for each thing). They slow the game down and due to the law of large numbers WILL produce nonsense results for some table often enough to be counterproductive.

That sort of trash design can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

We recently had a game where we had two consecutive combats with no ability to re-supply in between. Our Ranger ran out of arrows in the second combat. He wasn't likely to run out in the first combat (and didn't) but if he hadn't tracked it then he wouldn't have known how many he had left in the second one. The point at which he ran out changed the enemy tactics significantly, with the enemies using more ranged attacks. It was a pretty close fight.

For want of a nail and all that...

Quote from: mightybrain on December 18, 2020, 11:29:36 AM
We recently had a game where we had two consecutive combats with no ability to re-supply in between. Our Ranger ran out of arrows in the second combat. He wasn't likely to run out in the first combat (and didn't) but if he hadn't tracked it then he wouldn't have known how many he had left in the second one. The point at which he ran out changed the enemy tactics significantly, with the enemies using more ranged attacks. It was a pretty close fight.

For want of a nail and all that...

Well, that gets into resource depletion in general, right?  Apparently, a lot of people play later editions of D&D with not only no wandering monsters but will seldom have more than 1 encounter (random or otherwise) per day in the wilderness when traveling to and from the adventure location. (I think part of that might be habit left over from 3.*/4E days when, admittedly, setting up a random encounter was a lot of trouble.  Old habits die hard for people that started gaming that way.)  Point being, if you play such that resources almost never get depleted, then tracking them doesn't add much.

Of course, running a game where resource depletion matters is a choice that involves a lot more than tracking arrows, or even tracking resources.  It has to be a game where running out of things can matter, restocking is a choice with consequences (at least when and how much based on opportunity costs if nothing else), and part of the operational strategy is handling such decisions.  No operational game, much less point in tracking resources.  There might be lingering tactical reasons for tracking, depending on the exact resource scarcity and such, but that can be thin gruel. 

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on December 18, 2020, 10:26:22 AM

QuoteSo where's your line? Do you track hit points? Do you use stats? Aren't those just boring number tracking?
Honestly, my sister and her friends used to play a kind of storytelling game where there were no rules, just them saying stuff. Which is fine, but there's really no game to it. And one of the letter in the acryonym is Game for a reason.

Between "no rules storytelling" and "full simulationism" there is array of possibilities.
And there are many games with shooting units not counting ammo - where gamist element is centred on different elements.

That's why I asked. For example, Star Wars D6 uses wound states. Intead of tracking hit points, you're either stunned, wounded, or incapacitated. No need to track hit points in that system.
So do you track hit points? If so, why?

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 18, 2020, 10:49:28 AM
Track or don't track doesn't matter much to me. The only thing I go a bit "onetruewayist" on is "non-tracking" mechanics more complex than just making tick marks (that roll a diminishing die after each shot was particularly bad design since it adds a roll to each attack and still requires you to track which die type you're using for each thing). They slow the game down and due to the law of large numbers WILL produce nonsense results for some table often enough to be counterproductive.

That sort of trash design can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm with you on this. Some of these things are too clever by half.

So, another question for the non-trackers out there. Does the GM track monster ammo? There are rule sets that call for range-equipped monsters to have 2d6 ammo or whatever. An orc that fires off his ration of 3 crappy arrows and then charges in with his axe is just fucking cool IMO.

It could be interesting if a long-ish combat sees archers drop their bows and wade into the fray because they're out of arrows or snapped their bow string (which I believe can actually happen on a fumble in DCC RPG, per RAW). Yeah, you can't build a god-like sniper, you have to have some balance in the character so he doesn't die easily if this happens.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2020, 12:29:47 PM
So, another question for the non-trackers out there. Does the GM track monster ammo? There are rule sets that call for range-equipped monsters to have 2d6 ammo or whatever. An orc that fires off his ration of 3 crappy arrows and then charges in with his axe is just fucking cool IMO.

It could be interesting if a long-ish combat sees archers drop their bows and wade into the fray because they're out of arrows or snapped their bow string (which I believe can actually happen on a fumble in DCC RPG, per RAW). Yeah, you can't build a god-like sniper, you have to have some balance in the character so he doesn't die easily if this happens.

Again, speaking for myself... when we don't track something, its across the board. If we aren't tracking arrows we don't track monster arrows either.

That said we also don't tend to use rulesets that give monsters very limited random starting ammo either. The orcs will generally be presumed to have full quivers at the start of a fight so between their own supply and plundering their fallen allies' quivers we don't generally bother tracking.

We also presume our archers restock out of the leftovers when the fight's done in the same way that the shorthand "We Greyhawk the bodies" means "our party spends the next several minutes stripping our fallen opponents of everything even remotely of value."

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2020, 12:29:47 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 18, 2020, 10:49:28 AM
Track or don't track doesn't matter much to me. The only thing I go a bit "onetruewayist" on is "non-tracking" mechanics more complex than just making tick marks (that roll a diminishing die after each shot was particularly bad design since it adds a roll to each attack and still requires you to track which die type you're using for each thing). They slow the game down and due to the law of large numbers WILL produce nonsense results for some table often enough to be counterproductive.

That sort of trash design can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

I'm with you on this. Some of these things are too clever by half.

So, another question for the non-trackers out there. Does the GM track monster ammo? There are rule sets that call for range-equipped monsters to have 2d6 ammo or whatever. An orc that fires off his ration of 3 crappy arrows and then charges in with his axe is just fucking cool IMO.

It could be interesting if a long-ish combat sees archers drop their bows and wade into the fray because they're out of arrows or snapped their bow string (which I believe can actually happen on a fumble in DCC RPG, per RAW). Yeah, you can't build a god-like sniper, you have to have some balance in the character so he doesn't die easily if this happens.

In most fantasy games, I don't track monster ammo (I made an exception for the tail spikes of a trio of manticores). However, when playing a setting where scarcity is a big thing (like many post-apocalyptic settings including Gamma World and Twilight 2000, but also for "tight" gear games like Dark Heresy), then I often do set ammo for monsters/NPCs and keep track of it, often because it will become meaningful loot if the PCs overcome the encounter.

I remember a room in The Sunless Citadel where the characters need to get across a floor full of caltrops before they can get into melee with a group of goblin archers that have cover. The number of monster arrows was information the players wanted to know. And the druid was able to get that information by turning into a spider and walking across the roof to spy on them.