Quote from: Bill;607554I detest 'Detect Evil'

Also known as "Paladin stab here"


So boring.

Yep. Does the inkeeper who is sellling you bad ale detect as evil? How about an inkeeper who beats the stable boy? Or one who lets a robber know which room you're staying in? And if he's evil, is it okay to stab him through the throat?

Quote from: Bill;607554I like shades of grey because I find "Its evil...kill it!" to be very, very boring.

I detest 'Detect Evil'

Also known as "Paladin stab here"


So boring.

If you're letting paladins get stabby for no other reason than they "Detected" evil, you should have less paladins and more fighters in your game.

The end.

Quote from: Bill;607554I detest 'Detect Evil'

Also known as "Paladin stab here"

The way it tends to work in my games is, "Yes, he is evil. The shopkeeper behind him is also evil. Three other people in the room, including Morto, who guided you to the catacombs for a handful of money, are also evil."

And then what? Stab a handful of random evil people? That paladin wouldn't be detecting evil much longer than that.

[edit] crosspost crosspost crosspost. But really. In one of my ongoing campaigns, most everyone is evil, or at least an ugly shade of gray. It is neither an excuse, nor a reliable way to identify a target.

Quote from: Blackhand;607563If you're letting paladins get stabby for no other reason than they "Detected" evil, you should have less paladins and more fighters in your game.

The end.

Well, in all fairness to Stabtastic the Paladin, if his god says its evil, its not a stretch that he should stab it.

85% extreme shades of grey.
15% objective.  The heavy use of undead cost me some shades.

Quote from: Bill;607567Well, in all fairness to Stabtastic the Paladin, if his god says its evil, its not a stretch that he should stab it.

Not sure what version of (A)D&D you're using, but the guidelines for that spell in the 1st edition DMG might be good to re-read.

Quote from: Bill;607567Well, in all fairness to Stabtastic the Paladin, if his god says its evil, its not a stretch that he should stab it.

This happened two sessions ago.

So a paladin of St. Cuthbert enters the Moathouse dungeon.  He's with the party, but the first evil he detects is Zert, a hireling from Hommlett.

Yes, Zert is Chaotic Evil.  I don't tell the paladin that, just that he "pings" as evil.

The player says something imperious to Zert, I'm not sure what it was now.  It required some sort of response from him, I think it was the party trying to use Zert as a form of ablative armor by making him go first.  

When Zert shrugs his shoulders, puts down the coins he had scrounged into the party's dungeon cart, the paladin player says "Great job Zert.  Keep making good decisions."

It's a stretch that they just draw a sword a stab people and no one would do anything about it.  It's a polytheistic society.

If the paladin had out and out ran Zert through with little other than him being able to shout out "But he's EVIIIILLL!!!" would have caused all sorts of mayhem around the town and with the other player characters.

In this case, he acted as the paladin SHOULD.  As a LAWFUL GOOD individual.

Oh, yeah, just remembered, the God of Peace in my campaign has followers who routinely cast detect evil on strangers, then lure them into ambushes where they kill them without hesitation. My players tend to refer to them as "those fuckers".

Quote from: EOTB;607574Not sure what version of (A)D&D you're using, but the guidelines for that spell in the 1st edition DMG might be good to re-read.

I will read it when I get home. Probably have not read the spell description in over 10 years.

I generally just remove that spell from the setting.

I have no particular love or hate towards the so-called "anti-hero" but I do have a pet peeve against the term: it's a horrid misappropriation of the actual literary concept. "Dark hero" might be a better fit.

On principle, I prefer conflict to emerge out of actual, believable opposition on any number of grounds, I prefer my antagonists to be a bit more nuanced, I'm a sucker for a good redemption story, and I love it when players identify with their antagonists ("we're not so different, you and I") or better still, when they persuade a long-standing foe into a temporary alliance against a greater evil. Blame it on the Marvel greats, Doctor Doom and Magneto are two of my favorite villains, and took part in many a scene like this.

In practice, "irredeemable evil" is an easy hook, and a godsend for the time-pressed GM (which I am). There's plenty of good reason for PCs to face off against serial killers, organic-life-hating robots, Cthulhu cultists and fervent Nazis.

Quote from: Melan;607585Oh, yeah, just remembered, the God of Peace in my campaign has followers who routinely cast detect evil on strangers, then lure them into ambushes where they kill them without hesitation. My players tend to refer to them as "those fuckers".

see..not that I've used alignment for years...but anyone who did that would gester to a 'detect evil' spell.

Quote from: Blackhand;607578This happened two sessions ago.

So a paladin of St. Cuthbert enters the Moathouse dungeon.  He's with the party, but the first evil he detects is Zert, a hireling from Hommlett.

Yes, Zert is Chaotic Evil.  I don't tell the paladin that, just that he "pings" as evil.

The player says something imperious to Zert, I'm not sure what it was now.  It required some sort of response from him, I think it was the party trying to use Zert as a form of ablative armor by making him go first.  

When Zert shrugs his shoulders, puts down the coins he had scrounged into the party's dungeon cart, the paladin player says "Great job Zert.  Keep making good decisions."

It's a stretch that they just draw a sword a stab people and no one would do anything about it.  It's a polytheistic society.

If the paladin had out and out ran Zert through with little other than him being able to shout out "But he's EVIIIILLL!!!" would have caused all sorts of mayhem around the town and with the other player characters.

In this case, he acted as the paladin SHOULD.  As a LAWFUL GOOD individual.

I play Paladins the way you describe. I don't cut off thieves hands; I set a better example. I spare the lives of my enemies. Etc...

But, many players use evil as an excuse to kill out of expediency.

Many dm's do the same.

I always have the setting react logically to character actions; so there are repercussions for playing 'stupid evil' in my games.

It's a complicated question.  I absolutely believe that you should know an evil creature by his actions.  Evil people do evil things, often irredeemable, terrible things.  But even the worst individual should have a more complicated motivation than 'kicking puppies is fun'.  

Vengeance is a complicated motive.  Skyfall Spoilers....

Spoiler

The villain in Skyfall blames M for his captivity and torture.  She made the decision that, based on some of his actions, it was fair to leave him to the capture and torture in exchange for other agents.  He has a pretty legitimate gripe - she made a decision that he disagrees with, and as a result of that decision he was tortured and failed to kill himself.  He's not particularly sympathetic, but at least his motivation makes sense.

So I like villains that are doing evil things for complicated reasons, but ultimately, it's pretty clear that they're deranged or off.  Some few might be redeemable, but that's the exception, not the rule.  

I guess you could say I like dark shades of gray.

Quote from: EOTB;607574Not sure what version of (A)D&D you're using, but the guidelines for that spell in the 1st edition DMG might be good to re-read.

Ok, I found the 1E spell description online.


Detect Evil (Divination) Reversible  
Level: 1     Components: V, S, M    Range: 12"     Casting Time: 1 round    Duration: 1 turn + ½ turn/level     Saving Throw: None    Area of Effect: 1" path  
Explanation/Description: This is a spell which discovers emanations of evil, or of good in the case of the reverse spell, from any creature or object. For example, evil alignment or an evilly cursed object will radiate evil, but a hidden trop or an unintelligent viper will not. The duration of a Detect Evil (or Detect Good) spell is 1 turn + ½ turn (5 rounds, or 5 minutes) per level of the cleric. Thus a cleric of 1st level of experience can cast a spell with a 1½ turn duration, at 2nd level a 2 turn duration, 2½ at 3rd, etc. The spell has a path of detection 1" wide in the direction in which the cleric is facing. It requires the use of the cleric's holy (or unholy) symbol as its material component, with the cleric holding it before him or her.  



What am I missing? It seems to be pretty basic.

Quote from: Melan;607585Oh, yeah, just remembered, the God of Peace in my campaign has followers who routinely cast detect evil on strangers, then lure them into ambushes where they kill them without hesitation. My players tend to refer to them as "those fuckers".

I love those guys, the logical descendent of detect-and-smith anyone Paladins.