Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 02, 2021, 06:49:33 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 06:44:35 PMNo. Not really. I mean SCIENCE demands methodology and if magickal phenomena will be not possible to scrutinize under such methodology - because spirits of underworlds hate scientists, and it's their call what will happen, then you can have merely history of magickal occurences, but never science of magick - because you cannot experiment on that, not really. Maybe only to get conclusion it's not possible to examine it's scientificaly

Shitload of people using magick in history, despite very dubious and unreliable results beg to differ.

People only used magic in history because they were either desperate or deluded. They couldn't apply scientific methods to it because nothing actually happened.

Or have you considered that the enduring appeal of magic is that things DO happen, just not the things you wish would happen? This is like claiming "no one would engage in physics if you can't use it to make yourself spontaneously grow wings!" or "why would people go to a psychologist if the psychologist can't give them a 14 inch penis?? Psychology doesn't work1111!!!!"

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 02, 2021, 06:50:12 PM
Fantasy is not modern by any means. I don't know what you'd qualify as fantasy, but bear in mind that its origins can be traced to Greek and Roman myths, the Homeric works, the Nordic sagas, Arthurian and medieval chivalry romances, the Quixote, fairy tales, folklore, and many others which I'm probably forgetting right now. Fantasy is far from being modern.

Don't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained.

Also wrong. The boundary between superstition and magick is that the latter is explained, via cosmology. And that line gets drawn really really early. Like, its there in some shamanic semi-nomadic cultures.

Would the OP consider alchemy to be magic or science?

I mean, if one wanted a truly realistic, scientific magic system:

1d6
1. nothing happens
2. nothing happens
3. nothing happens
4. nothing happens but you convince people something did happen
5. nothing happens but you convince yourself something did happen
6. nothing happens but you convince yourself that you convinced people something did happen but you didn't.

Quote from: David Johansen on August 21, 2021, 11:47:38 PM
I mean, if one wanted a truly realistic, scientific magic system:

1d6
1. nothing happens
2. nothing happens
3. nothing happens
4. nothing happens but you convince people something did happen
5. nothing happens but you convince yourself something did happen
6. nothing happens but you convince yourself that you convinced people something did happen but you didn't.

That's not quite it, because you're skipping out on well-documented phenomena like placebo effect, psychosomatic sympoms and resolution thereof, and cultural expectations with respect to physical and psychological effects, which are resistant to any kind of randomization. There's also the problem that we're talking about a "realistic," "scientific" magic system for roleplaying games, not a laboratory.

Quote from: David Johansen on August 21, 2021, 11:47:38 PM
I mean, if one wanted a truly realistic, scientific magic system:

1d6
1. nothing happens
2. nothing happens
3. nothing happens
4. nothing happens but you convince people something did happen
5. nothing happens but you convince yourself something did happen
6. nothing happens but you convince yourself that you convinced people something did happen but you didn't.

Alternately it's an Intelligence check to design/build the trick and a Dex/Cha check to see if you baffle people as to how you accomplished it.

I bring THAT type of magic up because when you read between the lines on arcane magic that's much closer to what's going on with a wizard's spells. The wizard understands the principles of what's happening when he casts a spell (and those principles are in line with the "physics" of the setting, but just like modern magicians and just about every trade in the medieval period, you keep the trade secrets to yourself.

There's a reason the medieval fields of the "natural magics" (the one type NOT forbidden to be studied by the Catholic Church; ex. alchemy, herbology, astronomy) was eventually renamed the "natural sciences" (i.e. chemistry, botony, astronomy) as the use of the scientific method replaced guesswork and individual methods of studying with a normalized testing procedure.

A wizard may not know exactly WHY it works any more than modern physicists are able to get a working "theory of everything" that won't fall apart in a week when some new discovery disproves some aspects of it. But he can use it the same way an engineer can design an engine in line with the principles they do understand.

Which is another important point; hyperspace, anti-gravity, matter transporters and hand-held directed energy weapons are every bit the fantasy that incantations and gestures using sulfur and bat guano will produce a massive fireball; we can't really explain how they work either but we can make it sound plausible in the scientific paradigm of the day by extrapolation from known principles.

That's fantasy magic too... only instead of "element X" making the hyperdrive physics work its knowledge of how to tap into The Weave or The Arcane Web or the Elemental Plane that supplies the energy needed to boost the tiny flame of burning sulfur with bat guano into a titanic fireball.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 21, 2021, 07:32:58 PM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 02, 2021, 06:50:12 PM
Fantasy is not modern by any means. I don't know what you'd qualify as fantasy, but bear in mind that its origins can be traced to Greek and Roman myths, the Homeric works, the Nordic sagas, Arthurian and medieval chivalry romances, the Quixote, fairy tales, folklore, and many others which I'm probably forgetting right now. Fantasy is far from being modern.

Don't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained.

Also wrong. The boundary between superstition and magick is that the latter is explained, via cosmology. And that line gets drawn really really early. Like, its there in some shamanic semi-nomadic cultures.

According to whom, exactly? Who wrote the ultimate, official definition of magic? Nobody can prove it exists, and fantasy is fiction. Nobody has the last word. My point is simple; don't waste your time with rules or complex systems for magic; laws of equivalence, "X beats Y", conservation of magic, etc. Just leave it as a mystery, even for yourself. Only a kiss can wake the sleeping beauty, crystal shoes last until midnight, you have to get lost in the forest to end up in the fairy realm, genies grant wishes, if you repeat a certain word in front of a mirror a ghost will show up, etc. What are the rules for that magic? How does it work? Who knows! It doesn't follow physical rules or a well-defined system. I don't see how that makes it non-sensical or random.

Quote from: David Johansen on August 21, 2021, 11:47:38 PM
I mean, if one wanted a truly realistic, scientific magic system:

1d6
1. nothing happens
2. nothing happens
3. nothing happens
4. nothing happens but you convince people something did happen
5. nothing happens but you convince yourself something did happen
6. nothing happens but you convince yourself that you convinced people something did happen but you didn't.

If I could tweak your chart a little:

1d6
1. nothing happens
2. nothing happens
3. nothing happens but you convince people something did happen
4. nothing happens but you convince yourself something did happen
5. nothing happens but you convince yourself that you convinced people something did happen but you didn't.
6. roll twice and take both results.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 22, 2021, 08:42:28 AM

Alternately it's an Intelligence check to design/build the trick and a Dex/Cha check to see if you baffle people as to how you accomplished it.

I bring THAT type of magic up because when you read between the lines on arcane magic that's much closer to what's going on with a wizard's spells. The wizard understands the principles of what's happening when he casts a spell (and those principles are in line with the "physics" of the setting, but just like modern magicians and just about every trade in the medieval period, you keep the trade secrets to yourself.

There's a reason the medieval fields of the "natural magics" (the one type NOT forbidden to be studied by the Catholic Church; ex. alchemy, herbology, astronomy) was eventually renamed the "natural sciences" (i.e. chemistry, botony, astronomy) as the use of the scientific method replaced guesswork and individual methods of studying with a normalized testing procedure.

A wizard may not know exactly WHY it works any more than modern physicists are able to get a working "theory of everything" that won't fall apart in a week when some new discovery disproves some aspects of it. But he can use it the same way an engineer can design an engine in line with the principles they do understand.

"natural magic" and "hermetic magic" were both categories of what was called "Natural Philosophy". That is to say, magic was always at its core about the study and understanding of reality, the objective universe and the universe of human consciousness.

Note that "natural magic" was not just an old-timey word for science, though. In the middle ages, the term "science" already existed and referred to the study of things we would readily identify as "science" (or STEM, if you like) today: mathematics, geometry, early physics, astronomy (as opposed to astrology) and geography/cartography, medicine, botany and zoology.

"Natural magic", on the other hand, described magic that was performed without the invocation or evocation of spirits, gods, or demons. And often through the use of correspondences and manipulation with natural laws, or natural substances. It also included techniques of mind-training, like the art of memory.

Of course, most of the genuine and capable medieval and renaissance magicians were also serious experts on the sciences of the times. And a great many scientists of the late renaissance and early age of enlightenment were also magicians (including perhaps most famously Isaac Newton).

The separation between the disciplines of understanding the world around you, and understanding your self, has not been a particularly positive one. It's created scientists who are extremely expert in their fields but philosophically stunted human beings, and magicians who are disconnected fantasists.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 22, 2021, 05:44:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 21, 2021, 07:32:58 PM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 02, 2021, 06:50:12 PM
Fantasy is not modern by any means. I don't know what you'd qualify as fantasy, but bear in mind that its origins can be traced to Greek and Roman myths, the Homeric works, the Nordic sagas, Arthurian and medieval chivalry romances, the Quixote, fairy tales, folklore, and many others which I'm probably forgetting right now. Fantasy is far from being modern.

Don't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained.

Also wrong. The boundary between superstition and magick is that the latter is explained, via cosmology. And that line gets drawn really really early. Like, its there in some shamanic semi-nomadic cultures.

According to whom, exactly? Who wrote the ultimate, official definition of magic? Nobody can prove it exists, and fantasy is fiction. Nobody has the last word. My point is simple; don't waste your time with rules or complex systems for magic; laws of equivalence, "X beats Y", conservation of magic, etc. Just leave it as a mystery, even for yourself. Only a kiss can wake the sleeping beauty, crystal shoes last until midnight, you have to get lost in the forest to end up in the fairy realm, genies grant wishes, if you repeat a certain word in front of a mirror a ghost will show up, etc. What are the rules for that magic? How does it work? Who knows! It doesn't follow physical rules or a well-defined system. I don't see how that makes it non-sensical or random.

According to sources we have dating all the way back to the dawn of civilization. Incredibly early cultures clearly had magic that worked on the basis of cosmology and the manipulation of symbolic language.  And you see this in the entire world

Quote from: Cave Bear on August 21, 2021, 07:41:21 PM
Would the OP consider alchemy to be magic or science?

Alchemy is the science of turning gold into less gold.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 23, 2021, 07:21:11 AM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 22, 2021, 05:44:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 21, 2021, 07:32:58 PM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 02, 2021, 06:50:12 PM
Fantasy is not modern by any means. I don't know what you'd qualify as fantasy, but bear in mind that its origins can be traced to Greek and Roman myths, the Homeric works, the Nordic sagas, Arthurian and medieval chivalry romances, the Quixote, fairy tales, folklore, and many others which I'm probably forgetting right now. Fantasy is far from being modern.

Don't get me wrong; I never advocated for a "random" or nonsensical approach to magic. My point is, don't bother explaining how it works. Magic may follow a few rules or arbitrary steps, but we do not know its inner workings. If we approach it as a natural phenomenon, it doesn't make sense. It's better to just leave it as a mystery for the sake of the lore and the fun of the story/setting.

Far from being scientific, magic was never really explained.

Also wrong. The boundary between superstition and magick is that the latter is explained, via cosmology. And that line gets drawn really really early. Like, its there in some shamanic semi-nomadic cultures.

According to whom, exactly? Who wrote the ultimate, official definition of magic? Nobody can prove it exists, and fantasy is fiction. Nobody has the last word. My point is simple; don't waste your time with rules or complex systems for magic; laws of equivalence, "X beats Y", conservation of magic, etc. Just leave it as a mystery, even for yourself. Only a kiss can wake the sleeping beauty, crystal shoes last until midnight, you have to get lost in the forest to end up in the fairy realm, genies grant wishes, if you repeat a certain word in front of a mirror a ghost will show up, etc. What are the rules for that magic? How does it work? Who knows! It doesn't follow physical rules or a well-defined system. I don't see how that makes it non-sensical or random.

According to sources we have dating all the way back to the dawn of civilization. Incredibly early cultures clearly had magic that worked on the basis of cosmology and the manipulation of symbolic language.  And you see this in the entire world

There is no cosmology typical folk healer, the children who say names of ghosts in front of mirrors, love spells, good luck charms, Cinderella, Furious Orland, King Arthur, wishing wells, etc. I think you just give them too much credit. There may have been in the more philosophical hermetists, medieval goetia or arabian "alchemists", but I wouldn't assume all people think of a rationale behind how magic works.

BTW, you mentioned you believe in "magic" in the sense of working reality on more than one level. Care to recommend a few books?

Quote from: Shasarak on August 23, 2021, 06:06:11 PM

Quote from: Cave Bear on August 21, 2021, 07:41:21 PM
Would the OP consider alchemy to be magic or science?

Alchemy is the science of turning gold into less gold.

lol.

I wouldn't consider them either because in reality alchemy is more akin to yoga, buddhism and taoism than to an actual pseudochemistry. What's turning golden is you! The great work is nothing but regaining your own perfection. Granted, some alchemists did believe in physical prodigies, healing, etc. I read some people calling it a hard science (Manly P. Hall or Paul Foster Case) and other did delve into proto-chemistry (Paracelsus, arabians, etc.), but it's ultimately a spiritual belief.

That being said, you can't add this to a game because it's too boring. Maybe if you want some "enlightened" masters, sure.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 24, 2021, 09:58:47 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 23, 2021, 07:21:11 AM
According to sources we have dating all the way back to the dawn of civilization. Incredibly early cultures clearly had magic that worked on the basis of cosmology and the manipulation of symbolic language.  And you see this in the entire world

There is no cosmology typical folk healer, the children who say names of ghosts in front of mirrors, love spells, good luck charms, Cinderella, Furious Orland, King Arthur, wishing wells, etc. I think you just give them too much credit. There may have been in the more philosophical hermetists, medieval goetia or arabian "alchemists", but I wouldn't assume all people think of a rationale behind how magic works.

Children doing rote superstitions might not have a cosmology, but a folk healer or shaman will generally have a cosmology. Cultures have a cosmology even if they don't have writing or formal logic. There are patterns of thinking to how things work - often animist principles, treating natural forces as living things. When a love spell says take hair from your target's head and put it in a bag with rose petals that you have chewed, there in a thinking that someone's hair still has a mystic connection back to them (known as contagion). The rose petals have power of love, and chewing them connects the love to you.

As a game-master, one can just go by feel rather than having a formal logic to how the cosmology works. But it's also possible to put more thinking into it without it being scientific.

The point is that other beliefs like pre-literate animist isn't dumb or senseless. They can and do think long and hard about how the world works, but they're just coming from different principles and assumptions as a modern scientific view.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 24, 2021, 09:58:47 PM
I wouldn't consider them either because in reality alchemy is more akin to yoga, buddhism and taoism than to an actual pseudochemistry. What's turning golden is you! The great work is nothing but regaining your own perfection. Granted, some alchemists did believe in physical prodigies, healing, etc. I read some people calling it a hard science (Manly P. Hall or Paul Foster Case) and other did delve into proto-chemistry (Paracelsus, arabians, etc.), but it's ultimately a spiritual belief.

That being said, you can't add this to a game because it's too boring. Maybe if you want some "enlightened" masters, sure.

Chivalry & Sorcery had some semi-authentic adaptations of alchemy into playable rules, though at least original C&S did have a lot of bookkeeping - so "playable" is debatable. Their idea was that successive purifications accumulates magical power, which can be used for some more useful offshoots.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 24, 2021, 09:58:47 PM


There is no cosmology typical folk healer, the children who say names of ghosts in front of mirrors, love spells, good luck charms, Cinderella, Furious Orland, King Arthur, wishing wells, etc. I think you just give them too much credit. There may have been in the more philosophical hermetists, medieval goetia or arabian "alchemists", but I wouldn't assume all people think of a rationale behind how magic works.

Everything you said after "good luck charms" is mythology, not legend. And children's superstitions don't count either.
Both love spells and luck charms are absolutely based on a cosmology. Otherwise it would just be any random thing. In the middle ages, love spells were either folk practices based on sympathy or they were complex high-magic talismanic or binding spells for example. Charms are always based either on religious iconography, or some kind of cosmology. Maybe the people who typically used some of these thing did not know how they work (even as the typical computer user has no idea how to make a computer), but the people who created them certainly did.

As for ancient folk healers, read Mircea Eliade. Folk shamans and other types of magical/spiritual healers were absolutely using, invoking and (the serious ones) initiating themselves into alignment with a cosmology.

Quote
BTW, you mentioned you believe in "magic" in the sense of working reality on more than one level. Care to recommend a few books?

Sure, start with The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 24, 2021, 09:58:47 PM

I wouldn't consider them either because in reality alchemy is more akin to yoga, buddhism and taoism than to an actual pseudochemistry. What's turning golden is you! The great work is nothing but regaining your own perfection. Granted, some alchemists did believe in physical prodigies, healing, etc. I read some people calling it a hard science (Manly P. Hall or Paul Foster Case) and other did delve into proto-chemistry (Paracelsus, arabians, etc.), but it's ultimately a spiritual belief.

That being said, you can't add this to a game because it's too boring. Maybe if you want some "enlightened" masters, sure.

My Invisible College campaign players certainly don't think it's too boring.