In my blog entry today (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2013/09/cthulhu-occult-world-1910.html), I talk about how I'm writing about 20 pages of background information for the Raiders of R'lyeh book about what the occult world looked like in 1910, including a lot of material describing the practice of Edwardian Magick.
So the question is, how effective would you want "real world" occultism to be in a Cthulhu setting? 100% ineffective (ie. the magicians have it totally wrong?), or only that 90% of magicians are complete wankers doing useless things but there's about 10% of the occult corpus that actually does something?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;691147In my blog entry today (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2013/09/cthulhu-occult-world-1910.html), I talk about how I'm writing about 20 pages of background information for the Raiders of R'lyeh book about what the occult world looked like in 1910, including a lot of material describing the practice of Edwardian Magick.
So the question is, how effective would you want "real world" occultism to be in a Cthulhu setting? 100% ineffective (ie. the magicians have it totally wrong?), or only that 90% of magicians are complete wankers doing useless things but there's about 10% of the occult corpus that actually does something?
RPGPundit
I think the occasional Magician should stumble upon something 'man was not meant to know' and go insane, etc...
I certainly wouldn't want all/most 'occult' magic to be real. Just little gyms of true madness in a morass of hokum.
So lots of real world Occultism that's 90+% useless.
Call of Cthulhu products seem to bring out every author's Kitchen Sink Historian.
I love a good piece of historical occultism if it can be put in motion in the structure of the game.
If it's just "And remember kids, in 1913, Aleister Crowley looked sideways at this flower pot and then called upon Azazel to make a cheese wedge. So...work that into the game somehow." then fuck it: I can read up on that stuff on my own, without it being presented as an RPG book.
Quote from: Zak S;691149Call of Cthulhu products seem to bring out every author's Kitchen Sink Historian.
I love a good piece of historical occultism if it can be put in motion in the structure of the game.
If it's just "And remember kids, in 1913, Aleister Crowley looked sideways at this flower pot and then called upon Azazel to make a cheese wedge. So...work that into the game somehow." then fuck it: I can read up on that stuff on my own, without it being presented as an RPG book.
To me real world occultism is basically like a red herring/obfuscation factory in CoC.
But yes, it goes without saying that it should be presented in a manner immediately relevant to gaming.
90% to 95% goobledigook with about 5% to 10% stuff that works just to keep the Players guessing.
And yes, either excise everything from Aleister Crowley or just paint him to be the fraud he was. One of the most surefire ways I use to identify a nutter these days is if they quote Aleister Crowley at me.
Usually, only "magic" that comes from the Cthulhu Mythos works in my Cthulhu games, but of course an obscure piece of what seems like "ordinary" occult lore could very well turn out to be just that. The common magical activities of occultists and occultist societies don't have any effect. The influence they may exert is quite mundane in nature. The same goes for religious groups and movements.
I do enjoy for folklore to be effective on occasion, i.e. using garlic to ward off vampires and such.
L. Ron Hubbard, Jack Parsons and an elderly and practically senile Aleister Crowley attempt some masturbatory* thelemic magic and all three are eaten alive by a passing shoggoth irritated with the racket they're raising.
/scene
...
*=Parsons and Hubbard beat off together in an attempt to channel magic powers, IRL. Also IRL Crowley told Parsons that Hubbard was a quack and a fraud (and coming from Crowley that's quite the accusation) and to avoid him; Hubbard then stole Parsons' wife and several thousand dollars and disappeared over the horizon. Its fun to watch stupid beat on stupid!
Quote from: thedungeondelver;691159Its fun to watch stupid beat on stupid!
Slightly unfortunate way to put it given the earlier imagery conjured up, and I just lost 2d6 SAN points.
Is this a binary choice, one or the other? The obvious answer is 90-10 with the balance in favour of chicanery but could you make it situational, like most of the stuff works if you happen to be near a black temple or something, but otherwise doesn't, and only masters know the right times and places?
Also there's a Delta Green scenario that has a pagan cult of women who are unwittingly serving Shub-Niggurath, but it's presented by the actual cult leaders as a new-age sort of "woman as the mother-goddess" "good" movement (including "spiritual crystals" which are in fact foci for draining POW from the unsuspecting cult members), the DG Cell has the job of breaking up the cult without killing a bunch of civilians and banishing a Dark Young.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;691159L. Ron Hubbard, Jack Parsons and an elderly and practically senile Aleister Crowley attempt some masturbatory* thelemic magic and all three are eaten alive by a passing shoggoth irritated with the racket they're raising.
/scene
...
*=Parsons and Hubbard beat off together in an attempt to channel magic powers, IRL. Also IRL Crowley told Parsons that Hubbard was a quack and a fraud (and coming from Crowley that's quite the accusation) and to avoid him; Hubbard then stole Parsons' wife and several thousand dollars and disappeared over the horizon. Its fun to watch stupid beat on stupid!
The Trail of Cthulhu adventure I wrote called The Big Hoodoo (http://www.pelgranepress.com/?p=3854) includes a kind of "placeholder" magic system intended to stand in for Enochian magic; it involves creating weird acrostic matrices (like the Sator square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square)) in place of the crazy Enochian language.
The PCs in
The Big Hoodoo are Bob Heinlein, his wife Virginia, sf editor Tony Boucher, and a young Phil Dick in 1952; they investigate the suspicious death of Jack Parsons--and a thinly fictionalized L. Ron Hubbard is a prime suspect.
I include bits of Crowleyana in the adventure, and sometimes players who take the occult seriously are a bit discomfited by that.
Bill
Synopses. Enough summary to tease and tempt to self-research, but not enough to glaze over eyes. A weird happy median for one's inner 13 yr old and one's Mature GM.
As for what % of the stuff works? Depends on the table's take on the setting. There'd have to be enough to tantalize to explain exploring back then, but rare enough to feel safe in the age of PROGRESS! Somewhere between 30% to 10%.
First off, there has to be access to mild phenomenology, otherwise ectoplasm craze, séances, etc. wouldn't have cache up into the upper classes' parlors and salons. So Dreamlands, hauntings, ESP stuff should be far more accessible, closer towards 30%.
Then there has to be the remote parts of the world hosting mind-blowing mysteries to the imperial consciousness, and their sense of superiority. This encourages travel! So Easter Island moa, voudoun loa and zombii, lost cities of the Americas and SE Asia, trance rituals of Bali and Indonesia, etc. And that stuff should be closer to 20% functional magic of its own sort, possibly tapped Elder Sign magic, possibly just functional mysteries on their own.
And finally the real Mythos stuff should be around 10% to 5%. Rare nightmares coming to life. Stuff that requires piercing more than one's share of mystic veils to even glimpse a once-in-a-lifetime-but-still-too-much Mythos experience. Things in remote, unwanted areas and secret societies sheltering them, which come into conflict with PROGRESS'! ravenous and imperial maw.
None. That's one of the things I dislike about CoC, more and more non-Mythos magic crept in.
Which IMHO, defeats the whole point of the Cthulhu Mythos. The only sort of "magic" that is real in it is somehow related to the Mythos, like Nyarlothotep being the Black Man of Witches.
It should be presented like all other magic is just BS, while Mythos magic is real. Though not necessarily "magic", but some sort of alien science
"And I woulda summoned him, too, if not for you meddling kids!"
IMHO, horror works only on uncertainty. The more you can accurately label and categorize it, the less effective it is. Of course you want to go 90:10 ... at least.
Quote from: Bill White;691202I include bits of Crowleyana in the adventure, and sometimes players who take the occult seriously are a bit discomfited by that.
One of the best lines out of any of my players, in my campaign's history, came when another player questioned his faith. The first player and his ladyfriend (another player) were born-again Christians, as were a couple others in our large gaming circle. How come, says the second fellow, you two claim you're Christian when your character is an Crom-worshiping berserker and she plays a bitch princess who knifes her lovers when she tires of them?
Well, said my friend, I figure that the Lord God, omnipotent and all-knowing creator of heaven and Earth, has enough on the ball to figure out the difference between a game and reality.
The premise always stuck with me. The way I figure, I decide how my world works in every particular: what's true, what's not, what works, what's hokum, what's considered "good," what's considered "bad." People who can't stand that my POV might not agree with theirs are at best a poor fit for my campaign, and might not be a good fit for
anyone's.
Quote from: Piestrio;691148I think the occasional Magician should stumble upon something 'man was not meant to know' and go insane, etc...
I certainly wouldn't want all/most 'occult' magic to be real. Just little gyms of true madness in a morass of hokum.
So lots of real world Occultism that's 90+% useless.
That's an awesome little typo. Forget the libraries, they're useless; real magic is the province of the boxing gym and jujitsu dojo. Get your cadence on the speed bag right and you too can summon a hound.
Quote from: Ravenswing;691239The premise always stuck with me. The way I figure, I decide how my world works in every particular: what's true, what's not, what works, what's hokum, what's considered "good," what's considered "bad." People who can't stand that my POV might not agree with theirs are at best a poor fit for my campaign, and might not be a good fit for anyone's.[/COLOR]
(= It's how I run my games in terms of theosophy, too. Including regards to tools like alignment and any ideas therein.
:)
Quote from: Ravenswing;691239Well, said my friend, I figure that the Lord God, omnipotent and all-knowing creator of heaven and Earth, has enough on the ball to figure out the difference between a game and reality.[/COLOR]
Sandy Peterson, famous Mormon and occasional RPG author, on working on
Doom:
Quote from: Sandy PetersonI have no problems with the demons in the game. They're just cartoons. And, anyway, they're the bad guys.
Quote from: JeremyR;691227None. That's one of the things I dislike about CoC, more and more non-Mythos magic crept in.
Which IMHO, defeats the whole point of the Cthulhu Mythos. The only sort of "magic" that is real in it is somehow related to the Mythos, like Nyarlothotep being the Black Man of Witches.
It should be presented like all other magic is just BS, while Mythos magic is real. Though not necessarily "magic", but some sort of alien science
I don't think you have to worry much about the 10% being "real" magic, considering Pundit might even be referring to his definition of actual real magic .... and corresponding occultism.
There is an interesting gap between the Mythos Magic and what may be real magic, if used in the same setting.
Mythos Magic is rare, and insane-causingly dangerous, while assumed "real" magic is common but requires so massive studying and practicing ... without obvious results even, so only 1/10 ever reaches any kind of results at all, because all else gives up before that, or do not consider it worth it.
However, even some variants of alleged or actual real magic may also lead to the one studying it going a bit nuts or worse, so there is a clear possible connection there.
I really do not know what Pundit has in mind for the question, though, so ...
But, then we also has the laws on worldbuilding to think about.
How would the prescence of Mythos Magic affect those 10%?
According to some, Magic do not exist at all, so to those, those 10% would BE the Mythos Magic.
But, if Magic do exist in reality, then how would that be affected in a world based on the CoC Mythos?
Sorry if i do not give any answers, but just more questions.
However, i think that the point of view i have given should be taken into consideration.
As for any suggestions i might have, i find it best to not step into that area, since i know that my suggestions might get into an area not fitting the Mythos at all, unless i'm careful ... and currently, i do not feel careful enough.
My CoC games have werewolves, mummies, ghosts, witches, zombies, theoretically vampires (though never actually met in-game), and all kinds of other supernatural crap.
Give me the high level flyby on what people actually think might work (especially with a list of actual books), give me a system flexible enough to allow what does work, and let me decide what does and doesn't. Give me enough wiggle room to decide between Cthulhu only and a game of Hellboy if that's what I want.
I prefer a "no magick but the Mythos" approach in Call of Cthulhu. The mundane occult in such a game is just powerless wankery; if any actual power is manifest in an occult practice, it comes Mythos sources, regardless of what the magician thinks he's doing.
I prefer the two blended together with no distinct line drawn between Mythos and the occult. The Mythos as the true face of the hidden knowledge alluded to and wrapped in cultural expectations and myth.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691282I prefer a "no magick but the Mythos" approach in Call of Cthulhu. The mundane occult in such a game is just powerless wankery; if any actual power is manifest in an occult practice, it comes Mythos sources, regardless of what the magician thinks he's doing.
This
Quote from: TristramEvans;691284I prefer the two blended together with no distinct line drawn between Mythos and the occult. The Mythos as the true face of the hidden knowledge alluded to and wrapped in cultural expectations and myth.
Or how about tainted ones, which are like regular monsters except with aspects of the mythos. Similar to Warhammer chaos mutations, so you might have a squamous vampire on a sliding scale between normal vampire and mythos vampire.
Actually it could be a lot of fun to mix up five or six of these kinds of templates in one setting, the PCs would never know what they were facing next. Is it a mythos orc, or a chaos orc, or a possessed orc, or what?
Quote from: JeremyR;691227It should be presented like all other magic is just BS, while Mythos magic is real. Though not necessarily "magic", but some sort of alien science
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691282I prefer a "no magick but the Mythos" approach in Call of Cthulhu. The mundane occult in such a game is just powerless wankery; if any actual power is manifest in an occult practice, it comes Mythos sources, regardless of what the magician thinks he's doing.
This is how I deal with it as well.
Quote from: The Traveller;691298Or how about tainted ones, which are like regular monsters except with aspects of the mythos. Similar to Warhammer chaos mutations, so you might have a squamous vampire on a sliding scale between normal vampire and mythos vampire.
The Shunned House is pretty much Lovecraft's take on a vampire... and seems to me more in line with the old legends than the modern day sort that cruise dance clubs.
Ghouls or some other degenerate group, like the Martense clan, seem like they might serve as werewolves... though without the back and forth shape-changing.
Deep Ones are the Creature From The Black Lagoon and Herbert West kind of has Frankenstein covered.
There's weird mummies in Entombed With The Pharaohs.
I think that most "mundane" magic shouldn't work -- and that (in a CoC world), the "real" magic should be Cthulian magic.
HOWEVER: I like to think that people who are pursuing the esoteric would have come across Cthulian stuff and worked it into their understanding of magic.
Or more specifically: in a CoC world, there is powerful, esoteric knowledge that, if you have it, lets you do the supernatural. I think that in a CoC-verse most traditions of magic (and at least some legends, myths, and superstitions) are probably based on poorly understood CoC magic, and are poor imitations of "real" magic.
People who vigorously learn and experiment (A. Crowley) and dedicate their life to understanding the esoteric would probably have found a few nuggets of gold amongst all the silt.
So:
Most non Cthulian magic doesn't work -- but it is 'directionally' correct in some way. Further: attempting to understand magic in a traditional framework (e.g. Satanism) would tend to lead to wildly incorrect assumptions and (usually) ineffective magic.
But not always -- someone might be wrong about *why* something works or what they're doing (particularly if they believe that the universe is fond of them) but still come up with an effective formula.
A well-versed occultist who gained a decent understanding of "real" magic would start to be able to understand the mistakes most people make and start to see how common (ineffective) magic tracks actual, working magic.
To pull this off, you'd probably want to give the GM/Keeper some guidance on "Real Occultism" and how it "gets it wrong" and what the "right answer" is so they can pull this off in a game.
Cheers,
-E.
Quote from: Ravenswing;691239has enough on the ball to figure out the difference between a game and reality.
The premise always stuck with me.
Yup. A critical maxim for any artist or game designer to keep in mind: your fictional worlds are not reality, and don't have to reflect your beliefs about reality.
Nearly a decade ago, the then-owner of
Torg was revising the cosmology to match his vision of the real world. I argued against it, vehemently, saying that the fictional cosmology need only reflect the world of the game, not the real world.
He never quite understood my point.
It is worth noting that Lovecraft did draw extensively on real world occult when ppresenting his Mythos. It's largely believed The Necronomicon was based on a copy of the Lesser Key of Solomon his father was known to have owned. As such, I don't think the two need to be regarded as separate. When a caster invokes Gabriel or Asmideus during a spell, whose to say that the thing outside or reality responding to that evocation isn't some tentacled old one or even Nyarlothotep, who collects alternate names like I collect miniatures.
Quote from: The Traveller;691298Or how about tainted ones, which are like regular monsters except with aspects of the mythos. Similar to Warhammer chaos mutations, so you might have a squamous vampire on a sliding scale between normal vampire and mythos vampire.
Actually it could be a lot of fun to mix up five or six of these kinds of templates in one setting, the PCs would never know what they were facing next. Is it a mythos orc, or a chaos orc, or a possessed orc, or what?
That is interesting, but I see it working only in a very specific type of setting/genre premise. I generally kept supernatural to a very minimum in my Cthulhu games, and everything encountered I've made as unique as possible. That said, I have presented two different types of vampires so far. One based on the Eastern European Varcolac, and one that was basically an Aztec bat-god.
Quote from: TristramEvans;691411That is interesting, but I see it working only in a very specific type of setting/genre premise.
Yeah you'd need a spacious enough setting so you aren't constantly tripping over all the branches on the family tree. Not neccessarily physically huge but capacious, an ill reputed apartment block downtown could house a lot of variety. It would introduce a nice element of unpredictability to encounters.
Quote from: jeff37923;69115390% to 95% goobledigook with about 5% to 10% stuff that works just to keep the Players guessing.
And yes, either excise everything from Aleister Crowley or just paint him to be the fraud he was. One of the most surefire ways I use to identify a nutter these days is if they quote Aleister Crowley at me.
This isn't the thread to have a debate about it (feel free to start one in the Pundit's forum if you like) but needless to say I disagree with you about Crowley.
RPGPundit
Quote from: beejazz;691280Give me the high level flyby on what people actually think might work (especially with a list of actual books), give me a system flexible enough to allow what does work, and let me decide what does and doesn't. Give me enough wiggle room to decide between Cthulhu only and a game of Hellboy if that's what I want.
That's probably the best answer I heard so far.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691282I prefer a "no magick but the Mythos" approach in Call of Cthulhu. The mundane occult in such a game is just powerless wankery; if any actual power is manifest in an occult practice, it comes Mythos sources, regardless of what the magician thinks he's doing.
One question here would be just what the "mythos sources" are? Do you want to create a well-ordered and defined Pantheon in the way post-lovecraft writers did and say "this is what there is, period"? In which case it seems odd to me; to claim that occultism material "takes the mystery out of stuff" but then demanding a fully rigid structured mythos like an OCD-kid organizing his train sets.
If not, if the Mythos should be ineffable too in order to keep that sense of mystery, then your statement makes little sense anyways: wouldn't any magick that works by definition be from "mythos sources"?
I mean, certainly things like the demons of Abra-melin (or the goetic Qlippoth of the nightside of the tree of life), or the Enochian Angels, or the Holy Guardian Angel, or BABALON and the Abyss, the Night of Pan and the City of the Pyramids, are all things that sound pretty mythos-like to me in the sense of being powerful things beyond human reason.
And I mean shit, that's where all these lovecraftian and pre-lovecraftian and post-lovecraftian magicians got it from!
Shit, Arthur Machen was in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. And the Necronomicon is little more than the fictional analogue for the Goetia.
Mind you, if the point was to say "the Archangel Raphael" or "the demon Belial" should just be cultural names attributed to entities that are not in fact from the judeo-christian tradition but are cosmic forces who were named that way by europeans and would have been called something else in India, or Africa or China, and these would all be different names for an entity or force that transcends all these cultural trappings, then sure, I agree. But the Hermetic Qabalah in modern magick also already thinks that too.
RPGPundit
I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.
Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.
And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!
Quote from: Spinachcat;691849I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.
Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.
And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!
Stomping out all the occultists would also help in that case.
I generally agree with the 90% wrong crowd.
I think that stuff along the lines of the supernatural evil stuff in Machen's, Howard's and Ashton-Smith's works should probably be in though since the latter's part of the Mythos since day one and the former was such an inspiration to HPL.
Yes that does mean that some sorcerer types might have actual magic w/o being all about the core HPL Mythos. Sorcerers in REH's and CAS' stories do after all. But that would have to be used very sparingly. I mean I could include a campaign villain based on say the REH style Serpent Man sorcerer corporation CEO in GURPS' CthulhuPunk, but wouldn't have the campaign crawling (ha!) with dudes like that. It's CoC/etc after all not Urban Fantasy and if going total REH/CAS with the magic it could turn into the latter real quick.
Personally though I'd really enjoy a Machen-themed campaign most of all.
Quote from: 3rik;691896Stomping out all the occultists would also help in that case.
There's just so many occultists the PCs can murder before the cops get onto their cases, though. Remember, the mid-war period is also a period of great detectives. ;)
Quote from: RPGPundit;691835Do you want to create a well-ordered and defined Pantheon in the way post-lovecraft writers did and say "this is what there is, period"?
No.
Quote...wouldn't any magick that works by definition be from "mythos sources"?
Yes. Any source of magick that works would be from a mythos source. The distinction I would draw is that such sources may not be what the practitioner of magick imagines them to be. Indeed, the practice of magick, itself, is unlikely to be what the practitioncer imagines it to be.
I see the world of the Mythos as being very bleak. Humanity is insignificant and not special, the cosmos cares nothing for us and does not operate in the paradigm we imagine or wish for. Human religion is a dream. Human science is infantile. Reality is far more uncaring and complex and terrible than we could begin to imagine. Et cetera.
A conception of magick as understanding oneself and one's condition in the world of the Mythos means successful magick is a direct and swift path to insanity.
A conception of magick as being an art or science of understanding in action, or of causing change in conformity with human will would be an error, a view of monumental hubris, and a dangerous joke.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691969A conception of magick as understanding oneself and one's condition in the world of the Mythos means successful magick is a direct and swift path to insanity.
What little I know of real-world magic traditions seem to set up mankind as being somewhat important in the general cosmology... which is opposite the Mythos take.
When I was looking at adding elements of Kult to my CoC games this became a big friction point because Kult is based on gnostic traditions... humans are the heirs to the kingdom... and those assumptions don't fit.
In the end it either alters the basis of the magic or alters the Mythos. I'd prefer the former... meaning most of the traditions have it wrong to some degree and those who can pull something off have had the revelation that much of what they've learned is utter nonsense.
Quote from: Simlasa;691979What little I know of real-world magic traditions seem to set up mankind as being somewhat important in the general cosmology... which is opposite the Mythos take.
When I was looking at adding elements of Kult to my CoC games this became a big friction point because Kult is based on gnostic traditions... humans are the heirs to the kingdom... and those assumptions don't fit.
In the end it either alters the basis of the magic or alters the Mythos. I'd prefer the former... meaning most of the traditions have it wrong to some degree and those who can pull something off have had the revelation that much of what they've learned is utter nonsense.
Oh, as a probably slight off-topic, i can help you in the idea of mixing elements of CoC and KULT:
The answer is in KULT, since it is based on the idea that reality is a lie ...
The question is simply "Is the CoC Mythos also a lie and the great Cthulhu just a sock puppet for the evil angels(don't remember what they were called), or is the gnostic tradition just something made-up by humans in their attempts to not go insane? Ot is it a mix of both?"
Here's my problem with the 90% wrong. If I am playing a game of Raiders of R'yleh, then if occultists are involved in the scenario / module / adventure / wtf we are calling it this week, then I don't want 90% of my play time to be wild goose chases.
90% wrong seems a bit high. Maybe more like 75%.
Bear in mind though that I would expect them to be "functionally right but factually wrong" for much of that 25%. Just like the mainstream's occultist: the scientist.
Oat bran is good.
Oat bran is bad.
Oat bran is good.
Etc
Quote from: Spinachcat;691849I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.
Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.
And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!
Isn't that called
Cthulhutech?
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;692095Isn't that called Cthulhutech?
JG
Cthulhutech is more Pacific Rim with big guns being brought out against the Mythos in a sci-fi environment. My view (I may be wrong) of Raiders of R'lyeh is more Indy Jones / Hellboy / We kickass for the Lord style action horror.
Quote from: Spinachcat;692104Cthulhutech is more Pacific Rim with big guns being brought out against the Mythos in a sci-fi environment.
TV Tropes describes it as
"Cthulhu Mythos + Neon Genesis Evangelion".Wich btw sounds sufficiently awesome to me that I'm considering getting it.
Even though, well, we're obviously talking "intensely dark and kinda mean" here. :D
Quote from: Bill White;691202The PCs in The Big Hoodoo are Bob Heinlein, his wife Virginia, sf editor Tony Boucher
Rocket to the Morgue! You might have just sold another copy, Bill. Well done.
Quote from: Spinachcat;691849I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.
Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.
And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!
I don't exactly agree. Because of course, the dirty truth of occultism is that 90% of occultists don't do anything at all. I mean they don't even try. They just like to call themselves "magicians", "witches", whatever, but they never actually do any practice or ritual work whatsoever.
Some of these read a lot of books and talk a lot about it, but do no practice at all; others are even worse, they barely read at all, and just put on airs or make shit up that they haven't actually done, they just want people to think of them as "magicians".
So these people, were the mythos real, would not have any real contact with it.
There's a tiny group of guys who DO start trying to practice because they want something, like quick and easy power, or to get rich or control over others, or whatever, and then quit when they find out there is no quick-fix for whatever they want, or that its too much work to get anywhere; sometimes they give up altogether and then declare that "magick is all bullshit" (because they can't do one ritual and become mind-controlling corvette-summoners overnight), others just fall back into the default of pretending to be evil and powerful wizards without doing anything ever again.
If the mythos was real, some of those guys MIGHT end up contacting something real that would promise them the power they seek, and make them prime fodder for a mythos cult.
But again, that'd be a small minority in an ocean of useless posers (useless even to the mythos).
RPGPundit
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691969Yes. Any source of magick that works would be from a mythos source. The distinction I would draw is that such sources may not be what the practitioner of magick imagines them to be. Indeed, the practice of magick, itself, is unlikely to be what the practitioncer imagines it to be.
I see the world of the Mythos as being very bleak. Humanity is insignificant and not special, the cosmos cares nothing for us and does not operate in the paradigm we imagine or wish for. Human religion is a dream. Human science is infantile. Reality is far more uncaring and complex and terrible than we could begin to imagine. Et cetera.
A conception of magick as understanding oneself and one's condition in the world of the Mythos means successful magick is a direct and swift path to insanity.
A conception of magick as being an art or science of understanding in action, or of causing change in conformity with human will would be an error, a view of monumental hubris, and a dangerous joke.
Well, I can get where you're coming from there. Of course, any practicing magician in the real world can tell you that the sources and practice of magick are very much "not what the (neophyte) magician imagines them to be" anyways.
And magick within the persona, within the idea most people have of their "self" is typically pretty weak and infantile.
Magick only starts to be impressive to the degree you can 'step aside' from your self (what Buddhists might call "ego") and connect to a higher level of your being (the Augoeides), and even that's just a mid-level step; at the highest level step (to become a "master of the temple") you need to "pour out" every bit of your being into the eternal (the "Cup of Babalon"), to stop being a 'self' in very much the same way Tantric Buddhism talks about the annihilation of the ego into "the feminine principle".
Of course, this is all still quite a bit different from the totally-nihilistic view that Lovecraft had; but it depends on whether you view the universe as presented in the mythos as being actively and intentionally hostile to humanity (which I think is a misreading of the intent) or simply this huge thing way beyond the understanding of our rational ego that really doesn't care at all one way or the other about our petty human concerns (which I think is both a more accurate way to understand the Mythos AND its closer to, without being exactly identical to, real-world magical understanding of reality).
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Quote from: Bill White;691202The Trail of Cthulhu adventure I wrote called The Big Hoodoo (http://www.pelgranepress.com/?p=3854) includes a kind of "placeholder" magic system intended to stand in for Enochian magic; it involves creating weird acrostic matrices (like the Sator square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square)) in place of the crazy Enochian language.
The PCs in The Big Hoodoo are Bob Heinlein, his wife Virginia, sf editor Tony Boucher, and a young Phil Dick in 1952; they investigate the suspicious death of Jack Parsons--and a thinly fictionalized L. Ron Hubbard is a prime suspect.
I include bits of Crowleyana in the adventure, and sometimes players who take the occult seriously are a bit discomfited by that.
Bill
Oh fuck, I may have to impulse buy this. NOW.
Quote from: jeff37923;692659Oh fuck, I may have to impulse buy this. NOW.
It's a fun adventure, if a bit sprawling. I ran it at Pax East a few years ago for the fellas from the now sadly defunct Nerdbound podcast, but you can still listen to it here (http://www.nerdbound.com/2011/06/18/episode-92-trail-of-cthulhu-the-big-hoodoo-part-1-of-2/) if that might help you decide.
Quote from: econobus;692627Rocket to the Morgue! You might have just sold another copy, Bill. Well done.
Nice to know that nuance isn't lost on everyone ;-)
I suppose this is a good moment to point out that I've already finished and submitted the section that will appear in Raiders of R'lyeh on setting material providing great details about what the occult-world was like in 1910. We're still roughing out the edges of just how much of that occultism will have real effects, and what kind of effects.
One thing for certain is that none of the "real occultism" that isn't firmly connected to the mythos will be in any way more powerful than the Mythos magick, quite the contrary. I think magicians will be able to do a few interesting and useful stunts as they build up their occult studies, but this will require a great deal of discipline and will pale in the face of what mythos cultists or sorcerors will be able to do (of course, the latter comes at a terrible price!).
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There's an excellent Cthulhu supplement on occultism in the Victorian era:
http://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/The_Golden_Dawn_(Supplement)
The question of whether "standard" occultism works seems to miss the point that in your game world, some kind of magic does work, and so all of the magic literature created over the ages in that world could contain at least a kernel of real knowledge.
The mythos tomes described in CoC are "occult" books that contain a more accurate glimpse of the horrific truth. (I think even The Golden Bough is rated as having one spell in it.)
If your occult magic is based on rituals that summon demonic forces to do your bidding, then they do work, right? But it's VERY hard to find an accurate description of the ritual. Most of what has been written since the beginning time is made-up guff, and even if it's based on a "real" bit of magic, it's lost enough detail in translation to be worthless now.
The Golden Dawn supplement was quite good, yes.
In Raiders of R'lyeh there'll be a lot of setting material that talks about what happens a decade or more down the road, after the original Golden Dawn broke up. Several of their members went on to start their own hit bands.
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